Do you believe in God and why

[partington]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, thoughts are very real for me, yet they don't belong to the physical world.

 

When someone, perhaps a relative, gets Alzheimer's Disease, and one by one their memories go, then their personality and character change, melt, and ultimately disappear altogether, leaving an absence of personality in a shell that is barely able to eat or move: where have their thoughts, memories and personality gone?

 

Where are they while their body is still alive? 

 

You must think they are somewhere else, with their entire personality, sustained by all their memories of loved ones, mystical experiences, and so on, character and humour, whole, integral and fully functioning?

 

A materialist would say their brain is producing these things, and when the brain functions deteriorate these things disappear. They disappear in proportion to how much physical damage you can measure in the brain, and eventually when the entire brain is gone cannot exist.

 

One interpretation seems logical and consistent with every other observation about the nature of reality, and one seems completely baseless. 

 

I'll leave it up to you to decide which is which.

[xylophone]

41 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

So, if you see a house, and you consider that there was some thought involved in the making, why it's so hard to observe a much more complex human being and discount the possibility that there could be some intelligent thought involved in the making ?

Because one gets into the realms of fantasy when doing that.

 

Human beings are what we are and how we operate and how we think are very well studied. Your comments regarding "a much more complex human being, and discounting the possibility that there could be some intelligent thought involved in the making" are interesting from a pure fantasy or "filmmaking" perspective, but don't seem to match the reality (getting back to that word) that we all live with and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, which proves, or leans towards, or even vaguely suggests that there is much more complex "human being" out there doing his/her stuff!





 

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, xylophone said:

Because one gets into the realms of fantasy when doing that.

 

Human beings are what we are and how we operate and how we think are very well studied. Your comments regarding "a much more complex human being, and discounting the possibility that there could be some intelligent thought involved in the making" are interesting from a pure fantasy or "filmmaking" perspective, but don't seem to match the reality (getting back to that word) that we all live with and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, which proves, or leans towards, or even vaguely suggests that there is much more complex "human being" out there doing his/her stuff!
 

Oh my..."there's nothing that vaguely suggests"....nice try to sweep away 1000s of years of spiritual knowledge as if it had never existed. You probably thought nobody would notice and you could get away with this generalizing nonsense.

Topics have been presented for your scientific scrutiny (Transcendental Meditation specifically), a topic that has proven scientific value, that is as real as the blinders on your eyes, ...but instead of investigating the claims and debate them rationally and logically, we got meaningless platitudes and condescending, uninformed generalizations. 
Is that the kind of science you're trying to represent? If so, you're doing an awfully poor job, let me tell you.

 

It would be a great act of maturity on your side, if you could simply say "I don't know". It's ok, nobody will think less of you. 

I'm sorry if this comment comes across as rather strong, but I'm quite passionate about this subject. I have personal experiences and over 20 years of research to back up my ideas. I welcome any criticism as long as it has precise arguments and is delivered respectfully. 

[frantick]

6 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Topics have been presented for your scientific scrutiny (Transcendental Meditation specifically), a topic that has proven scientific value

OK, I'll play.  No doubt the act of 'meditating' has 'proven scientific value'.  But what measured 'spiritual value'?  I can sit and watch a tank of fish and experience 'proven scientific value' of relaxation, calm, wonder, etc. What exactly are you claiming is TM's 'proven scientific value' ?  Experiences of the mind? Inner spring explosions? Astral Projection?

 

Show me a chart of said 'proven scientific value' that infers 'proven scientific spirituality'.

 

 

[Elad]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

So, if you see a house, and you consider that there was some thought involved in the making, why it's so hard to observe a much more complex human being and discount the possibility that there could be some intelligent thought involved in the making ?

We are not born with the knowledge to design and build a house, all this knowledge is given to us after we are born from our parents, schools, universities etc..  and all this knowledge has accumulated from thousands of generations before.

 

If our parents or guardians didn't educate us and we had no schooling etc, then we would be very dumb creatures.

Take a look at this poor girl who was abandoned by her parents at the age of 3, and she was forced to live in a fam yard with a pack of dogs for 6 years with hardly any human contact. She was raised and educated by dogs.

 

 

[Elad]

18 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Hmm, I'm not sure if and how this is connected to the kundalini energy, but it doesn't sound like the same thing at all.
To make a visual example....This sounds like you open the water faucet in your bathroom and release some water every day. Now imagine the 3 Gorges Dam in China (the world's biggest dam) being opened and millions of liters flooding the valley below. That's how the kundalini energy feels like when it passes through the body.

The kundalini doesn't always travel straight through. Often it stops at certain points because there are blockages along the way that need to be cleared before it can move upwards.

From what I understand, the kundalini release is not a daily occurrence, but more like winning the lottery.

So, are you saying that 'kundalini energy' is a form of unknown energy, and yet you can physically feel it running through your body. I you can physically feel it then it must be a form of energy we are familiar with in the known universe. Humans store lots of chemical energy from food we have eaten, and this stored energy is converted into kinetic energy so we can function and move our limbs.

Are these spiritual experiences just a release of stored chemical energy within the body... energy that originated from the sun, and that's why they call you the Sunmaster. ????     

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, frantick said:

OK, I'll play.  No doubt the act of 'meditating' has 'proven scientific value'.  But what measured 'spiritual value'?  I can sit and watch a tank of fish and experience 'proven scientific value' of relaxation, calm, wonder, etc. What exactly are you claiming is TM's 'proven scientific value' ?  Experiences of the mind? Inner spring explosions? Astral Projection?

 

Show me a chart of said 'proven scientific value' that infers 'proven scientific spirituality'.

 

 

Neither TM nor I have ever claimed that there are scientifically proven spiritual benefits. 

I pointed to those physical and mental ones, because they are supported by tons of research.

These are the areas that competent to science. 

That said, there is also a spiritual component to TM for those who want to access it. 

 

The interesting question here (I think)  is:

If TM is right about the proven mental and physical benefits, could it be that they are right about the spiritual ones too?

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, frantick said:

OK, I'll play.  No doubt the act of 'meditating' has 'proven scientific value'.  But what measured 'spiritual value'?  I can sit and watch a tank of fish and experience 'proven scientific value' of relaxation, calm, wonder, etc. What exactly are you claiming is TM's 'proven scientific value' ?  Experiences of the mind? Inner spring explosions? Astral Projection?

 

Show me a chart of said 'proven scientific value' that infers 'proven scientific spirituality'.

 

 

They have been asked for such for 8 LONG months and have provided nothing. Good question, but good luck getting a meaningful, valid, substantiated answer.

[Skeptic7]

21 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Neither TM nor I have ever claimed that there are scientifically proven spiritual benefits. 

I pointed to those physical and mental ones, because they are supported by tons of research.

These are the areas that competent to science. 

That said, there is also a spiritual component to TM for those who want to access it. 

 

The interesting question here (I think)  is:

If TM is right about the proven mental and physical benefits, could it be that they are right about the spiritual ones too?

If...if...if, then maybe...maybe..maybe.

 

Those possibilities will start to be worthy of consideration when there's some proof proof proof. 

[Tagged]

25 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Neither TM nor I have ever claimed that there are scientifically proven spiritual benefits. 

I pointed to those physical and mental ones, because they are supported by tons of research.

These are the areas that competent to science. 

That said, there is also a spiritual component to TM for those who want to access it. 

 

The interesting question here (I think)  is:

If TM is right about the proven mental and physical benefits, could it be that they are right about the spiritual ones too?

The question you asking, is about how deep the person feeling spiritual or religious. As stated many time before, it is a brain stimulanse that is quite alike sex and drugs. 

 

So many articles about brain scannes research what drugs, religion,  sports, extreme sports, do with your brain. But some interesting facts about lifespan and cope with disease is found about religious people. 

 

"

hether you are a staunch atheist, a reserved agnostic, or a devout believer, you are equally likely to find the effects of religion on human brains astonishing.

Religious belief can increase our lifespan and help us better cope with disease.

And, research in the field of "neurotheology" — or the neuroscience of theological belief — has made some surprising discoveries that are bound to change how we think about spirituality.

For instance, some scientists suggest that religious experience activates the same brain circuits as sex and drugs."

 

source 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539.php#1

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, Tagged said:

The question you asking, is about how deep the person feeling spiritual or religious. As stated many time before, it is a brain stimulanse that is quite alike sex and drugs. 

 

So many articles about brain scannes research what drugs, religion,  sports, extreme sports, do with your brain. But some interesting facts about lifespan and cope with disease is found about religious people. 

 

"

hether you are a staunch atheist, a reserved agnostic, or a devout believer, you are equally likely to find the effects of religion on human brains astonishing.

Religious belief can increase our lifespan and help us better cope with disease.

And, research in the field of "neurotheology" — or the neuroscience of theological belief — has made some surprising discoveries that are bound to change how we think about spirituality.

For instance, some scientists suggest that religious experience activates the same brain circuits as sex and drugs."

 

source 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539.php#1

It's not difficult to understand that science will research the things (physical and mental) they have the tools (brain scans) to research and will explain the findings in terms they can verify and understand (brain circuits, neurons, chemicals).
It's also not difficult to understand that the same science is not equipped to measure more subtle fields and can therefore not claim to know, one way or another. All a honest scientist worth his salt can say is "We don't know at this point in time because we don't have enough data to support a theory". Yet, some eager souls here take it upon themselves to be the "voice of reason" and stubbornly translate that as "We can't measure it, so that means it doesn't exist." 
Talking about being irrational....????

 

That said, if religious (spiritual) experience activates the same brain circuits as sex and drugs, well...I'm in! 
Jokes aside, this is not surprising at all but very vague. For instance, it doesn't give any indication on the intensity and the effects of those 3.

[Tagged]

@Sunmaster

 

Irrasjonal or not, it is a simple explanation why people feel so strong about their beliefs, no matter what that belief is! 

 

It is just sex drugs and rockn roll, and quite simple "Nothing else matters" when you can not be the Alpha male and king of the world, you have to obey something greater than yourself. 

 

However I stand by my first sentence in this post. The rest, well, just let it be, 

[Sunmaster]

9 hours ago, Elad said:

So, are you saying that 'kundalini energy' is a form of unknown energy, and yet you can physically feel it running through your body. I you can physically feel it then it must be a form of energy we are familiar with in the known universe. Humans store lots of chemical energy from food we have eaten, and this stored energy is converted into kinetic energy so we can function and move our limbs.

Are these spiritual experiences just a release of stored chemical energy within the body... energy that originated from the sun, and that's why they call you the Sunmaster. ????     

Nobody calls me Sunmaster. It's a character from a famous sci-fi novel and I just liked the sound of it. It's got nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Kundalini is hardly an "unknown" energy. The exact origin of Kundalini Yoga is unknown, but the earliest known mention dates to the sacred Vedic collection of writings known as the Upanishads (c. 1,000 B.C. - 500 B.C.). This is just the written down teaching about kundalini. The knowledge of this energy is bound to be much older than that.

 

Of course we are familiar with it in the known universe. People from all walks of life experience it all the time. This is not to say that it's a common occurrence in one's life or easy to access. Some people meditate a lifetime and don't experience it, for others it just happens, sometimes through a trauma or strong emotional stress. It's unpredictable and follows its own law.

 

I don't know about the kinetic or stored chemical energy within the body. It may play a part in it, but I wouldn't take that as a satisfactory explanation of this energy.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

14 hours ago, xylophone said:

Because one gets into the realms of fantasy when doing that.

 

Human beings are what we are and how we operate and how we think are very well studied. Your comments regarding "a much more complex human being, and discounting the possibility that there could be some intelligent thought involved in the making" are interesting from a pure fantasy or "filmmaking" perspective, but don't seem to match the reality (getting back to that word) that we all live with and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, which proves, or leans towards, or even vaguely suggests that there is much more complex "human being" out there doing his/her stuff!





 

Ok, so according to you there is a distinct line between reality and the realm of fantasy.

But, let's have a look, for example, at the lives of 2 human beings like, say Mozart and Jack the ripper, both of them were intelligent, had a brain, a nervous system, a functioning body etc.

Can you explain how one has written some wonderful music which is surviving hundreds of years, and another one was murdering random women for apparently no reason ?

It seems to me that you can't really dismiss the power of thought as electrical and chemical processes, it's a bit more complex than that.

"Reality" is only a word, but trying to describe it could be a never ending task.

 

[xylophone]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, so according to you there is a distinct line between reality and the realm of fantasy.

But, let's have a look, for example, at the lives of 2 human beings like, say Mozart and Jack the ripper, both of them were intelligent, had a brain, a nervous system, a functioning body etc.

Can you explain how one has written some wonderful music which is surviving hundreds of years, and another one was murdering random women for apparently no reason ?

It seems to me that you can't really dismiss the power of thought as electrical and chemical processes, it's a bit more complex than that.

"Reality" is only a word, but trying to describe it could be a never ending task.

 

I don't really know what your argument is trying to "prove" as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the other "reality" which you have written about.

And it is a proven fact that our thoughts are as a result of chemical and electrical processes, and as another poster, @partington has written, once the brain dies, these processes cease and whatever thoughts one had disappear........nothing mystical or "alternative reality" scenario about it.

Still as I said previously if you wish to believe in it, then by all means do.

[mauGR1]

14 hours ago, partington said:

When someone, perhaps a relative, gets Alzheimer's Disease, and one by one their memories go, then their personality and character change, melt, and ultimately disappear altogether, leaving an absence of personality in a shell that is barely able to eat or move: where have their thoughts, memories and personality gone?

 

Where are they while their body is still alive? 

 

You must think they are somewhere else, with their entire personality, sustained by all their memories of loved ones, mystical experiences, and so on, character and humour, whole, integral and fully functioning?

 

A materialist would say their brain is producing these things, and when the brain functions deteriorate these things disappear. They disappear in proportion to how much physical damage you can measure in the brain, and eventually when the entire brain is gone cannot exist.

 

One interpretation seems logical and consistent with every other observation about the nature of reality, and one seems completely baseless. 

 

I'll leave it up to you to decide which is which.

Not sure how your example is pertinent, it's like if i give you a car with a broken engine, and i ask you to tell me how fast can it go.

If you think that the material world exists until you are alive, it's fine for me, but that's true only for you.

While in fact it's quite likely that when you cease to exist, the world will be still existing.

A part of you will be existing too, in the memory of those who knew you and in the things you have done etc.

Your consciousness may have a longer life than your physical body, but scientists cannot detect it, can they ?

 

[tifino]

this whole question could very well be more complex than you ever imagined!!

 

 

 

for...what if he was a she?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

To be honest, apart from denials, i can't remember any subject or experience posted by you.

I  can't recall a single post from him that had anything to do with the topic. He has already said he is only on here because he is bored, which is obviously a lie, IMO, as there are plenty of other subforums that are more interesting to read. IMO he is a troll. Plenty of other trolls on here as well.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I don't really know what your argument is trying to "prove" as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the other "reality" which you have written about.

And it is a proven fact that our thoughts are as a result of chemical and electrical processes, and as another poster, @partington has written, once the brain dies, these processes cease and whatever thoughts one had disappear........nothing mystical or "alternative reality" scenario about it.

Still as I said previously if you wish to believe in it, then by all means do.

i just proved with a very easy example that thoughts, being Mozart music, or the actions of a criminal, which you, from a merely materialistic point of view, dismiss as "electrical and chemical brain functions" can survive the physical life of a body.

If you still want to think that your thoughts disappear once you have died, it can be true for you, but just for you, while in fact your thoughts and actions survive in the memory of other people who have known you.

[mauGR1]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I  can't recall a single post from him that had anything to do with the topic. He has already said he is only on here because he is bored, which is obviously a lie, IMO, as there are plenty of other subforums that are more interesting to read. IMO he is a troll. Plenty of other trolls on here as well.

Well, there are some strange people, but i won't waste a lot of time discussing it.

At least he's not so childish as other subjects, who are trying to pollute this thread by leaving confused little faces on almost every comment i post.

Let's try not to be dragged to their low level ????

 

[thaibeachlovers]

26 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, so according to you there is a distinct line between reality and the realm of fantasy.

But, let's have a look, for example, at the lives of 2 human beings like, say Mozart and Jack the ripper, both of them were intelligent, had a brain, a nervous system, a functioning body etc.

Can you explain how one has written some wonderful music which is surviving hundreds of years, and another one was murdering random women for apparently no reason ?

It seems to me that you can't really dismiss the power of thought as electrical and chemical processes, it's a bit more complex than that.

"Reality" is only a word, but trying to describe it could be a never ending task.

 

They keep confusing what humans are with life the universe and everything.

Life is what the creator created. What happens to life on an uncountable number of planets throughout the universe is whatever happens. To try and claim that "God" made each and every individual human being seems ridiculous to me.

A lab tech can create the means by which bacteria can multiply in a petri dish, but is anyone going to claim that the lab tech made each and every individual bacteria in the petri dish? Same with life on the planet. The creator put life into the first primitive organism to float in the ocean and it became every living thing that is now.

The deniers keep coming back to apparently claim that "God" is concerned only with life on this planet, which is silly, IMO. The "God" presence is everywhere in the universe, including this planet, which is why any individual that wishes to do the hard graft can experience the divine. That would be true for every intelligent life form on any other planet, whatever they look like.

The deniers can't even begin to understand what we are talking about as they are still apparently talking about what is in books and what people did thousands of years ago, which is all completely irrelevant to what "God" is. All they can do is mock, because they don't have an applicable point of view to promote. It's like we are out in the stars and they are still looking at the ground for answers.

They'll mock this post because they don't even understand what I'm talking about and mockery is all they have.

[xylophone]

28 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

i just proved with a very easy example that thoughts, being Mozart music, or the actions of a criminal, which you, from a merely materialistic point of view, dismiss as "electrical and chemical brain functions" can survive the physical life of a body.

If you still want to think that your thoughts disappear once you have died, it can be true for you, but just for you, while in fact your thoughts and actions survive in the memory of other people who have known you.

Actually you prove nothing! You assumed or surmised.

And you are getting confused between thoughts and actions, it's the actions (or the consequences thereof) which survive, and the thoughts which prompted those actions have long since disappeared.

The fact that you and your life and adventures therein may well be remembered by other people who knew you, has nothing whatsoever to do with what's been discussed.

Edited December 10, 2019 by xylophone

[ThaiBunny]

10 minutes ago, xylophone said:

And you are getting confused between thoughts and actions, it's the actions (or the consequences thereof) which survive, and the thoughts which prompted those actions have long since disappeared.

I put it all down to the Placebo Effect

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Actually you prove nothing! You assumed or surmised.

And you are getting confused between thoughts and actions, it's the actions (or the consequences thereof) which survive, and the thoughts which prompted those actions have long since disappeared.

The fact that you and your life and adventures therein may well be remembered by other people who knew you, has nothing whatsoever to do with what's been discussed.

So you believe that we came from nothing and once our body's life force ends we become nothing again?

Those of us that believe in god believe that our life force came from god, and when our bodies die our life force returns to god, in heaven or nirvana or whatever one wishes to call it.

 

Do you know where life force comes from? Just appeared out of nowhere, did it?

[xylophone]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Life is what the creator created.

Ah, the creator, the well-known and much loved "being".

 

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

To try and claim that "God" made each and every individual human being seems ridiculous to me.

As it does to me, so I'm not sure where you stand on this – – that the creator created life, or that a being called God created life?

 

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The creator put life into the first primitive organism to float in the ocean and it became every living thing that is now.

Ah, that creator "being" again. The one that cannot be proven, no evidence exists of such a being and no one has ever seen "it" – – that one.

 

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The deniers can't even begin to understand what we are talking about as they are still apparently talking about what is in books and what people did thousands of years ago, which is all completely irrelevant to what "God" is

Not sure what you mean by a "denier"? First of all you seem to deny that a God is responsible for human existence, then you say that books written about what God is and did are completely irrelevant to what God is?

 

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They'll mock this post because they don't even understand what I'm talking about and mockery is all they have.

I don't think anyone is mocking your posts, just saying that there is no evidence to suggest that what you're saying is true or even exists.

And just last night I watched the recommended one hour video called, "the chaos theory" and it was very interesting, however I and others know that for those that believe that there is a creator, their response is simply along the lines of, "well who put the elements on Earth or on other planets to be able to create life – – it must have been the creator". 

 

 

[xylophone]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So you believe that we came from nothing and once our body's life force ends we become nothing again?

Those of us that believe in god believe that our life force came from god, and when our bodies die our life force returns to god, in heaven or nirvana or whatever one wishes to call it.

 

Do you know where life force comes from? Just appeared out of nowhere, did it?

Simple answer to your questions......YES and that would be the resounding response from the majority of the educated world.

 

Actually as a postscript to this post, it will have become quite obvious to those and others that I am an atheist (I should say agnostic really because I'm willing to be converted, given proof) and do not believe in this god-botherer nonsense as is the case with a great majority, which is why the congregations in churches are dwindling markedly.

Nor do I believe in "the creator" or things of mythology and mysticism, although contrary to another sun worshipper's comments, I have practised transcendental meditation so I am aware of it.

No amount of spouting off about one thing or another which cannot be proven, or of which no evidence exists seems rather pointless now, so to those who believe in all sorts of things/beings/deities/objects other than the reality as it is, I wish you a good day and will do what I used to do when the Mormons came knocking, looking for Jesus (I told them he wasn't hiding in my house) – – close the door on this thread.

Edited December 10, 2019 by xylophone

[mauGR1]

25 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Actually you prove nothing! You assumed or surmised.

And you are getting confused between thoughts and actions, it's the actions (or the consequences thereof) which survive, and the thoughts which prompted those actions have long since disappeared.

The fact that you and your life and adventures therein may well be remembered by other people who knew you, has nothing whatsoever to do with what's been discussed.

Ok, i just tried to create some easy step for you to climb and watch things from a higher point, but it's time for me to give up.

I will say goodbye with an image for you to think about.

Both of us are stuck in the mud of the physical reality, but while i look at the stars in delight, you look at your feet and the mud.

But thoughts are just electrical impulses, right ? Up to you ????

[canuckamuck]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So you believe that we came from nothing and once our body's life force ends we become nothing again?

Those of us that believe in god believe that our life force came from god, and when our bodies die our life force returns to god, in heaven or nirvana or whatever one wishes to call it.

 

Do you know where life force comes from? Just appeared out of nowhere, did it?

Astonishing that folks can imagine that consciousness is the result of inorganic matter interacting, and the matter itself is the result of nothing interacting with nothing.

That, my friends, is a miracle too ridiculous to be considered.

[Tagged]

38 minutes ago, xylophone said:

And just last night I watched the recommended one hour video called, "the chaos theory" and it was very interesting, however I and others know that for those that believe that there is a creator, their response is simply along the lines of, "well who put the elements on Earth or on other planets to be able to create life – – it must have been the creator". 

 

 

I have to admit «creation in his/our image» is not that far fetched to understand, since I believe we one day will manage to fertilize our own planet with our seeds, being the lifeforms we have on earth. Then the whole thing will restart again. However life exists in all universes most likely, and who can deny we can contribute and play god as well? In meantime we will make love, fight and kill for our right to believe, and make life worth to live. We need a reason to live, religion could be one, freedom from religion could be another! I choose independency and freedom because I can!

Edited December 10, 2019 by Tagged

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, canuckamuck said:

Astonishing that folks can imagine that consciousness is the result of inorganic matter interacting, and the matter itself is the result of nothing interacting with nothing.

That, my friends, is a miracle too ridiculous to be considered.

Yet they appear to be so full of pride for their "logic" ; as the master said, "let's forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing".