Do you believe in God and why

[xylophone]

13 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

but the Jews invented the one God before that people worshiped the stars and odin etc , etc. so who is to say that they are right?

Interesting point you make, because one definition of religion is: – "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods".

 

So it could be argued that those who worshipped the likes of Thor and Odin were also religious in their own ways, and this idea of religion became hijacked and made into powerful and money spinning business by the appointing of a "one and only God" to be worshipped.

 

A great business model was introduced and many "organisations" have made fortunes out of it.
 

[mauGR1]

38 minutes ago, xylophone said:

A great business model was introduced and many "organisations" have made fortunes out of it.

Nobody disputes your facts, but there's something called perspective. 

War, human trafficking and drugs are very profitable businesses too, but for some reason you don't seem very indignant about it.

How is that ?

I may be wrong,  but i never heard about monks and priests carpet bombing civilians or kill entire populations, did you ?

[seedy]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Nobody disputes your facts, but there's something called perspective. 

War, human trafficking and drugs are very profitable businesses too, but for some reason you don't seem very indignant about it.

How is that ?

I may be wrong,  but i never heard about monks and priests carpet bombing civilians or kill entire populations, did you ?

Maybe read about the Spanish conquest of the New World. If that was not genocide nothing was.

No bombs tho' - burning at the stake and work them to death was more profitable.

Brought to you by your local cross raising "good" people

[seedy]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Nobody disputes your facts, but there's something called perspective. 

War, human trafficking and drugs are very profitable businesses too, but for some reason you don't seem very indignant about it.

How is that ?

I may be wrong,  but i never heard about monks and priests carpet bombing civilians or kill entire populations, did you ?

Know why drugs are illegal - War on Drugs

Why War on Drugs - make money. Outfit police, build jails.

Want to shut down the Cartels in one fell swoop - decriminalize ALL drugs.

This has cost untold misery and human suffering - many many many times more than the actual drugs themselves.

Read about Portugal - for just a start and just one country who has their ---- together

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Nobody disputes your facts, but there's something called perspective. 

War, human trafficking and drugs are very profitable businesses too, but for some reason you don't seem very indignant about it.

How is that ?

I may be wrong,  but i never heard about monks and priests carpet bombing civilians or kill entire populations, did you ?

RC Priests called for genocide in Rwanda and Latin America with Conquistadors. RC Priests  passively accepted genocide in Nazi Germany and supported ALL Fascist Regimes in History.  
Buddhist Monks in Burma called for genocide of the Rohingya. Of course they are far too politically astute to do these deeds themselves. ????????

[TropicalGuy]

14 minutes ago, seedy said:

Maybe read about the Spanish conquest of the New World. If that was not genocide nothing was.

No bombs tho' - burning at the stake and work them to death was more profitable.

Brought to you by your local cross raising "good" people

Yes. Now earlier here mau said that people kill not religion but it’s the IDEOLOGY in all forms of Religion that’s the great danger & catalyst for believer fanatics to cause & commit genocidal mass murder.

Catholic Church, Islam, Khmer Rouge, Mongols, Communism, Nazism killed Hundreds of Millions combined, motivated by False Deliberate IDEOLOGY. (NOT “wrong interpretation”).

[mauGR1]

47 minutes ago, seedy said:

Maybe read about the Spanish conquest of the New World. If that was not genocide nothing was.

No bombs tho' - burning at the stake and work them to death was more profitable.

Brought to you by your local cross raising "good" people

Are you telling me that Spanish monks and priests exterminated the indigenous population of america ? If so, where did you read that ?

Strange fantasies you have???? 

[mauGR1]

36 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

Yes. Now earlier here mau said that people kill not religion but it’s the IDEOLOGY in all forms of Religion that’s the great danger & catalyst for believer fanatics to cause & commit genocidal mass murder.

Catholic Church, Islam, Khmer Rouge, Mongols, Communism, Nazism killed Hundreds of Millions combined, motivated by False Deliberate IDEOLOGY. (NOT “wrong interpretation”).

Yes, ideologies (you forgot democracy) have been, and are used to justify any kind of atrocities and war crimes, thanks for stating the obvious. 

Of course you blame ideologies, but ideas cannot hold guns and knives, do they ?

So what's your solution, perhaps let all humans have lobotomy as soon as they are born ? 

[Photoguy21]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:38 PM, quandow said:

I believe life had some sort of intelligent design, and as I've pulled human remains out of a submerged plane crash and observed the lack of life, there is something about humans having a soul. It's even been weighed. As much as the method used to weigh the soul was sloppy science, I think the bible is sloppy narrative. Jesus was a short dark guy, not the European with flowing brown hair currently selling His book. It's been rewritten so many times with so many inconsistencies that it's difficult to fathom anyone taking it 100% seriously. There ARE many good parables, the lessons are good standards to apply to your walk through life. Do I believe we were created? Yes. Do I believe in the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God? No.

If it had an intelligent design why are people now so dumb?

Edited July 21, 2022 by Photoguy21

[seedy]

5 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Are you telling me that Spanish monks and priests exterminated the indigenous population of america ? If so, where did you read that ?

Strange fantasies you have???? 

That is like saying that Hitler and the architects of the Final Solution did not work in the camps, so they are not responsible.

America is North, Central, and South. Not just Trump Towers

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, seedy said:

That is like saying that Hitler and the architects of the Final Solution did not work in the camps, so they are not responsible.

America is North, Central, and South. Not just Trump Towers

No, it's not. 

Thanks for the geography lesson.

I'm sorry to say that, but imho your hate for religion is obfuscating your judgement, making it hard for you to think clearly. 

Whatever makes you happy ????

 

[TropicalGuy]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, ideologies (you forgot democracy) have been, and are used to justify any kind of atrocities and war crimes, thanks for stating the obvious. 

Of course you blame ideologies, but ideas cannot hold guns and knives, do they ?

So what's your solution, perhaps let all humans have lobotomy as soon as they are born ? 

I refer to rigid malign authoritarian dogma which tolerates no dissent or reform not free- thinking benign concepts like Democracy.
 

Weapons are mere tools controlled by minds following malign ideologies which dehumanize peoples actions.Thus sanctioning all forms of mass murder …….in the name of ideology. ????????

 

solution is of course Proper Education in Humanities & Sciences, from early age, free from Dogma / Ideology. 

[TropicalGuy]

8 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Are you telling me that Spanish monks and priests exterminated the indigenous population of america ? If so, where did you read that ?

Strange fantasies you have???? 

They played their part with forced religious conversions & endorsing forced Labour. Diseases from Europe killed probably 90%. RC Church has apologized for their New World actions. ????????

[TropicalGuy]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:38 AM, mauGR1 said:

Few years ago i would have never thought that i would have been defending religion, but recently I've changed my mind. 

Religion must not be intolerance, but moral values for everyone to live in peace, and hopefully prosperity and even happiness. 

But i am still against any kind of fanaticism, so let's not "throw the baby with the dirty water", because it seems that those who condemn religion are just as intolerant as the average believer. 

In the end, it's up to you what you believe. 

I believe in the Natural Moral Legal Ethical Codes intrinsic always to Modern Humans so pre- dating Religion. ????????

 

Proof: Hammurabi Written Laws 2000 BC & Ancient World Writings circa 2500-1000 BC.
 

So clearly such Codes were NOT introduced by Religion.????

 

I believe these Codes were merely co-opted &re-packaged by Religion, exploiting the clear Human Need for pre-Scientific Purpose & Explanations, for Purposes of Business Power Wealth.????furthered by Knowledge Suppression of course. 

 

With Science & Humanities so well - developed it’s quite Irrational to maintain Religion, (except for illogical but comfortable societal reasons of Culture & Tradition). 

 

 

[mauGR1]

8 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

I believe in the Natural Moral Legal Ethical Codes intrinsic always to Modern Humans so pre- dating Religion. ????????

 

Proof: Hammurabi Written Laws 2000 BC & Ancient World Writings circa 2500-1000 BC.
 

So clearly such Codes were NOT introduced by Religion.????

 

I believe these Codes were merely co-opted &re-packaged by Religion, exploiting the clear Human Need for pre-Scientific Purpose & Explanations, for Purposes of Business Power Wealth.????furthered by Knowledge Suppression of course. 

 

With Science & Humanities so well - developed it’s quite Irrational to maintain Religion, (except for illogical but comfortable societal reasons of Culture & Tradition). 

 

 

Well, we may not always see eye to eye, but I appreciate in  this case your thoughtful posts.

Yep, apparently much of the old testament was taken by the Jews from the older civilizations of the fertile crescent, from which the script originated, as well as the transition from a hunter-gatherer society to a agricultural and subsequent industrial society.

I see religion, in a broad way, as a search for equality and justice which is wired into the human beings, together with  less noble impulses. 

Humanism is consequential of the modern religions like christianity and buddhism.

As for the benefits of science, well, it depends unfortunately from who is paying the scientists, as we can see nowadays, unless one's eyes are shut by propaganda. 

Again, nothing new under the sun.

Looking forward for your next contributions. 

[seedy]

12 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

No, it's not. 

Thanks for the geography lesson.

I'm sorry to say that, but imho your hate for religion is obfuscating your judgement, making it hard for you to think clearly. 

Whatever makes you happy ????

 

I do not hate anything - dislike ideologues, fanatics and idiots.

My judgement is based on my life experiences. If some old guy living in the air on a cloud does it for you - have at it.

Don't mind my laughter.

And I am not sorry for anything

[seedy]

9 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

They played their part with forced religious conversions & endorsing forced Labour. Diseases from Europe killed probably 90%. RC Church has apologized for their New World actions. ????????

Ah - so that is OK then. They said they are sorry.

They sorry for the pedophile cases too, so no harm done.

They are the personification of Evil

[mauGR1]

24 minutes ago, seedy said:

I do not hate anything - dislike ideologues, fanatics and idiots.

My judgement is based on my life experiences. If some old guy living in the air on a cloud does it for you - have at it.

Don't mind my laughter.

And I am not sorry for anything

Ok, i have to admit that sometimes i take the discussion too seriously , and i end up expecting too much in terms of unbiased knowledge and open-mindedness. 

My fault. 

Of course i respect your opinion and your experience, if you play fair.

When you bark at the wrong tree i beg to differ though.

I dislike fanatics too, while ideologies deserve to be fairly discussed, and as for idiots, well, who decides who is an idiot ? It's subjective, don't you think?

Some people believe that animals, in many ways, are better than humans, yet you won't let your dog in charge of your finances, would you ?

 

[mauGR1]

12 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

They played their part with forced religious conversions & endorsing forced Labour. Diseases from Europe killed probably 90%. RC Church has apologized for their New World actions. ????????

This is a quite realistic view of the facts imho.

Contagious diseases brought from Europe seem to have been determining the sad fate of the indigenous. 

Yet some posters seem to think that armies of blood thirsty priests wiped out the indigenous population of south and central americas while singing the praise of the lord, and thus depicting the whole concept of christianity as an evil cult.

[seedy]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

 who decides who is an idiot ?

For me - I do

Not hard to spot - believes everything he hears, is taught, is shown.

Respects authority blindly. Obeys all laws regardless. Trusts strangers.

I could go on - but you get the drift.

[Sunmaster]

31 minutes ago, seedy said:

For me - I do

Not hard to spot - believes everything he hears, is taught, is shown.

Respects authority blindly. Obeys all laws regardless. Trusts strangers.

I could go on - but you get the drift.

What you describe could be applied to materialists just as well...

[mauGR1]

37 minutes ago, seedy said:

For me - I do

Not hard to spot - believes everything he hears, is taught, is shown.

Respects authority blindly. Obeys all laws regardless. Trusts strangers.

I could go on - but you get the drift.

That's controversial. 

Some authorities and some laws deserve respect, other don't. We could argue for ages.

Not trusting strangers sounds very tribal, there are other ways to determine trust.

All you said is debatable although in general it makes some sense.

Sorry, i get your drift, but no cigar.????

[TropicalGuy]

6 hours ago, seedy said:

Ah - so that is OK then. They said they are sorry.

They sorry for the pedophile cases too, so no harm done.

They are the personification of Evil

I was unclear. I meant by “ apologizing” ( rather unconvincingly) RC Church have actually self- declared ( form of “ confession”?) all their major evil deeds. And it’s a very long shocking list. C. Hitchens gives the details by You Tube video. ????????

[TropicalGuy]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

That's controversial. 

Some authorities and some laws deserve respect, other don't. We could argue for ages.

Not trusting strangers sounds very tribal, there are other ways to determine trust.

All you said is debatable although in general it makes some sense.

Sorry, i get your drift, but no cigar.????

I think he alludes perhaps to the millions of (educated) religious simpletons in advanced free countries like USA South, and other places, who should know better, but continue to Deny Science & Facts. 
 

Together with the programmed Islamic fanatics denied proper education so don’t know any better until acquiring western residence & knowledge…. at which point the Islam- renouncing rate ( on pain of death remember) is around 15% following exposure to the blinding science- based truth.

 

[TropicalGuy]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, we may not always see eye to eye, but I appreciate in  this case your thoughtful posts.

Yep, apparently much of the old testament was taken by the Jews from the older civilizations of the fertile crescent, from which the script originated, as well as the transition from a hunter-gatherer society to a agricultural and subsequent industrial society.

I see religion, in a broad way, as a search for equality and justice which is wired into the human beings, together with  less noble impulses. 

Humanism is consequential of the modern religions like christianity and buddhism.

As for the benefits of science, well, it depends unfortunately from who is paying the scientists, as we can see nowadays, unless one's eyes are shut by propaganda. 

Again, nothing new under the sun.

Looking forward for your next contributions. 

1st two paras good. Last three paras are not. Religion has very little to do with Equality, Justice or Humanism. Science very little to do with Payment or Propaganda; that’s unevidenced Conspiracy Theory / Pseudo- Science stuff.

 

With some notable exceptions e.g. Pharma/ Medical fields.

Depression is NOT caused by lack of brain serotonin and the now- denounced “scientific” studies “ proving” that in fact clearly did NOT prove that at all. Pharma made HUGE Profits from anti- depressants which have caused Immense Damage  to those taking them futilely for  20-25 years + . 
 

Everything Modern IS New “ under the sun”. How dumb is that expression and where on earth did it come from ( rhetorical!). ? ????????

[seedy]

I can not understand why this is so hard to understand ...

Religion = Politics

The end result desired by both is Control.

With that Control comes Power, and with the Power comes Wealth.

There is NO other reason

No religion or Gov't wants you to think for yourself.

None want you to be happy, or fulfilled, or content.

No politician will not say other than "I am from the Gov't and I am here to help you" Do as I say, or suffer the consequences.

No priest will not say other than "Believe" Do as I say, or suffer the consequences.

 

[Hummin]

5 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

This is a quite realistic view of the facts imho.

Contagious diseases brought from Europe seem to have been determining the sad fate of the indigenous. 

Yet some posters seem to think that armies of blood thirsty priests wiped out the indigenous population of south and central americas while singing the praise of the lord, and thus depicting the whole concept of christianity as an evil cult.

Without church blessing, many of the missions would not have been carried out. 
 

Alexander the great used religion for his missions and also for motivation and loyality both for his warriors  and those he conquered, and finely thought he became one himself the son of Zevs I believe it was. 

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

Everything Modern IS New “ under the sun”. How dumb is that expression and where on earth did it come from ( rhetorical!). ? ????????

That expression sounds dumb to you because you don't understand it.

An example?

In old times people were brainwashed by dishonest priests, now they are brainwashed by technology.

In other words, form changes, but the substance stays the same????

[Hummin]

On 7/21/2022 at 4:28 AM, xylophone said:

Interesting point you make, because one definition of religion is: – "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods".

 

So it could be argued that those who worshipped the likes of Thor and Odin were also religious in their own ways, and this idea of religion became hijacked and made into powerful and money spinning business by the appointing of a "one and only God" to be worshipped.

 

A great business model was introduced and many "organisations" have made fortunes out of it.
 

All religion seems to be coming from same sources and are connected somehow to each other. It just changed on its way to fit the environment’s.

 

Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest monotheistic religions, having originated in ancient Persia. It contains both monotheistic and dualistic elements, and many scholars believe Zoroastrianism influenced the belief systems of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
 

Quite interesting read

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zoroastrianism
 

 

[Hummin]

14 minutes ago, seedy said:

I can not understand why this is so hard to understand ...

Religion = Politics

The end result desired by both is Control.

With that Control comes Power, and with the Power comes Wealth.

There is NO other reason

No religion or Gov't wants you to think for yourself.

None want you to be happy, or fulfilled, or content.

No politician will not say other than "I am from the Gov't and I am here to help you" Do as I say, or suffer the consequences.

No priest will not say other than "Believe" Do as I say, or suffer the consequences.

 

First the religion need religious and spiritual humans to develop a concept, that later being abused, so you can not take away that from those who in best faith shared their knownledge and faith. 
 

I do believe many missionaries acted in good faith, but unfortunate, we now all know how wrong and fatal that can be now. And it will happen again and again, because history have an bad record of repeating itself.