Thais' obsession with documents, copies, signatures

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, ttl said:

Maybe immigration should be interested in a scanner to save duplicate personal copies to be physically sent to the master office from Mukdahan to Korat  and all other offices round the country,  Then we only need to submit one copy of every required document which is filed by scanner to ultimate destination where it is instantly available

Would reduce work load considerably for every one????

 

But can you still get a Windows 7 driver for a new scanner !   LOL

[Hanuman2547]

39 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I would say up to half the docs for bank accounts can be disclosure agreements forced upon the banks by your home country. This largely depends on what country you are from of course. 

 

If you think the paperwork is excessive here, try looking at some bills and insurance papers for a single hospital visit in the US. 

 

You are also not taking into account foreign scrutiny. If I move from Saudi Arabia to the USA, do you think my banking forms are going to look like a US citizen's? That is the situation you are in here as a foreigner. 

utalkin2me don't know what you are talking about.  I have known quite a few Thais in the USA on PR status.  Since they are PR, they don't do anything differently than a US citizen when applying for credit cards, debit cards, opening accounts, purchasing property, signing leases, buying a car, etc.  This holds true even for Thai students studying in the USA on a student visa.  It is not the US banks requiring this it is the Thai management of banks that are doing this.  Rest assured Bangkok Bank in New York does not operate this way.  In addition, you do not have to make endless photocopies of the same document, sign every page, wait for an endless amount of time for it to be examined by three or four different vice presidents and get numerous stamps.  Same Thai student can walk into any bank in the USA and open a savings and a checking account and be issued debit cards (which will arrive in the mail) that very same day after a wait of maybe 20-30 minutes.  Try that in a Thai bank........not gonna happen.

[CLW]

utalkin2me don't know what you are talking about.  I have known quite a few Thais in the USA on PR status.  Since they are PR, they don't do anything differently than a US citizen when applying for credit cards, debit cards, opening accounts, purchasing property, signing leases, buying a car, etc.  This holds true even for Thai students studying in the USA on a student visa.  It is not the US banks requiring this it is the Thai management of banks that are doing this.  Rest assured Bangkok Bank in New York does not operate this way.  In addition, you do not have to make endless photocopies of the same document, sign every page, wait for an endless amount of time for it to be examined by three or four different vice presidents and get numerous stamps.  Same Thai student can walk into any bank in the USA and open a savings and a checking account and be issued debit cards (which will arrive in the mail) that very same day after a wait of maybe 20-30 minutes.  Try that in a Thai bank........not gonna happen.

True that. As long as you apply for a bank savings account the amount of hassle ans paperwork is everywhere less than in Thailand. Not to mention any visa related issues...

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[Tradewind777]

Process and procedure is the last hiding place of the incompetent.

[ronaldo0]

Even more disturbing is the other planet where they keep all these signed papers !!!!

[donim]

2 hours ago, CLW said:

Since my first encounters with Thai bureaucracy it reminds of one the the tasks of the cartoon movie "The 12 tasks of Asterix". Unfortunately, most Thais don't know it. Here's the plot:

 

"the pair attempt the eighth task of getting a permit document from a multi-storey bureaucratic building. After finding it impossible because of the clinically unhelpful people who direct them elsewhere, Asterix beats them at their own game by asking for an imaginary permit. The staff fall victims to their own behaviour, and cause the Prefect to unwittingly hand over what the Gauls came for."

Another story..

 

[donim]

58 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

But can you still get a Windows 7 driver for a new scanner !   LOL

How would you install a Windows 7 driver on Windows 98? ????

[Jumbo1968]

Arrival/Departure Cards, does some one actually input all the details, ok there is a barcode but I lost my Departure Card and filled a new one in at the Airport with a different Barcode therefore they couldn’t match my Arrival Card with my Departure Card or is the bar code irrelevant ?

There must be huge warehouse some where or a giant shredder ?

[jvs]

My latest balance sheet,43 signatures.

[Hank Gunn]

2 hours ago, CLW said:

My girlfriend works in government office and sometimes she is formulating a letter for hours to find the right words in Thai language, as she tried to explain me why she needed that long for a few paragraphs letter. Must have something to do with Thai language and etiquette, not to intimidating someone.

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Well, not really what I said. The extra verbiage is not about the Thai language and etiquette, and not about intimidation. It's just to make the proposal LOOK important/grandiose. In other words, it's less about the merits of the proposal and more about the appearances of the proposed project.

[tom in bangkok]

1 hour ago, poka513 said:

Wonder where all that paperwork gets stored. There must be mountains of it somewhere.

Probably in a huge facility deep underground. Something like the storage facility in The X-Files... except it indefinitely stores paperwork for visa extension applications instead of government secrets and evidence of alien life.

 

[CLW]

Well, not really what I said. The extra verbiage is not about the Thai language and etiquette, and not about intimidation. It's just to make the proposal LOOK important/grandiose. In other words, it's less about the merits of the proposal and more about the appearances of the proposed project.

Makes me shaking my head that we are being teached at Thai universities about project management especially the reporting and final report and outlook or long term benefits yet I saw so many projects that after photo op of important persons and money paid quickly got forgotten and never have been maintained or kept running...

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[justin case]

6 hours ago, Old Croc said:

Thailand has close to a nil unemployment rate.

One reason is the low minimum wage enabling the hiring of many more people than is needed for a given job (the first time I went into HomePro I was astounded to count over a dozen staff following me around).

While other countries are looking for short cuts and efficiencies to cut large wages costs, Thailand trends in the opposite direction. The entrenched culture of corruption, nepotism and face, result in the employment of far more staff than is required to manage relatively simple tasks. Excessive paperwork is one way to justify empire building.

Despite having embraced the digital era, the people here just can't let go of the traditional collection and storage of paper.

yeah, just did a black canyon visit ... 6 staff  + invisible in the kitchen

 

in any western country would be 2-3 max, 1 on the floor and 2 in the kitchen

 

don't dare to ask anything in a big shopping mall as the answer is mostly: MAI MEE , till you find he item yourself off course...

[utalkin2me]

4 hours ago, Hanuman2547 said:

utalkin2me don't know what you are talking about.  I have known quite a few Thais in the USA on PR status.  Since they are PR, they don't do anything differently than a US citizen when applying for credit cards, debit cards, opening accounts, purchasing property, signing leases, buying a car, etc.  This holds true even for Thai students studying in the USA on a student visa.  It is not the US banks requiring this it is the Thai management of banks that are doing this.  Rest assured Bangkok Bank in New York does not operate this way.  In addition, you do not have to make endless photocopies of the same document, sign every page, wait for an endless amount of time for it to be examined by three or four different vice presidents and get numerous stamps.  Same Thai student can walk into any bank in the USA and open a savings and a checking account and be issued debit cards (which will arrive in the mail) that very same day after a wait of maybe 20-30 minutes.  Try that in a Thai bank........not gonna happen.

You know foreign people living in the US? How about when they came to the usa? Make a pile of all the docs needed for that, then make a pile of docs for a foreigner to come to Thailand. We are talking about 50 to 1 here. The op's assertions is absurd.

 

Try this... look i to their tax docs when they are in the usa. Or my god look at their tac docs if they open up a business. Then compare those to the foreigner working in Thailand equivalent. 

 

People just think they are put out because they are overprivileged, pretentious white folk who think the world should lay out a red carpet.  

 

People have to deal with paperwork far worse than what expats do here. For christ's sake, there are currently bans in place prohibiting some nationalities from entering USA. And you think you have it bad in Thailand? Imagine the documentation, like I said, for someone from Saudi Arabia to visit their parents. Some of these folks are on a quasi ban to enter the US, and you think their paperwork is LESS than your in Thailand lol. Seriously laughable. 

 

 

[OneEyedPie]

Not forgetting the ever increasing obsession with ID for just about everything.  I can live with it but it's now OCD.  

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

You know foreign people living in the US? How about when they came to the usa? Make a pile of all the docs needed for that, then make a pile of docs for a foreigner to come to Thailand. We are talking about 50 to 1 here. The op's assertions is absurd.

 

Try this... look i to their tax docs when they are in the usa. Or my god look at their tac docs if they open up a business. Then compare those to the foreigner working in Thailand equivalent. 

 

People just think they are put out because they are overprivileged, pretentious white folk who think the world should lay out a red carpet.  

 

People have to deal with paperwork far worse than what expats do here. For christ's sake, there are currently bans in place prohibiting some nationalities from entering USA. And you think you have it bad in Thailand? Imagine the documentation, like I said, for someone from Saudi Arabia to visit their parents. Some of these folks are on a quasi ban to enter the US, and you think their paperwork is LESS than your in Thailand lol. Seriously laughable.

Many people don't travel much so have little experience with other cultures and hold their own sacrosanct so that is never compared.  

[utalkin2me]

4 hours ago, Hanuman2547 said:

utalkin2me don't know what you are talking about.  I have known quite a few Thais in the USA on PR status.  Since they are PR, they don't do anything differently than a US citizen when applying for credit cards, debit cards, opening accounts, purchasing property, signing leases, buying a car, etc.  This holds true even for Thai students studying in the USA on a student visa.  It is not the US banks requiring this it is the Thai management of banks that are doing this.  Rest assured Bangkok Bank in New York does not operate this way.  In addition, you do not have to make endless photocopies of the same document, sign every page, wait for an endless amount of time for it to be examined by three or four different vice presidents and get numerous stamps.  Same Thai student can walk into any bank in the USA and open a savings and a checking account and be issued debit cards (which will arrive in the mail) that very same day after a wait of maybe 20-30 minutes.  Try that in a Thai bank........not gonna happen.

From the very first link that popped up on google: 

 

"

What requirements do you need?

For the bank to be able to trust you, security measures have been heightened. Some banks will even require a background check before approving your account. 

You will need to verify your identity, reliability, residency, and business. For businessmen, it is easier to set a bank account for your business if you have the required documents and approval. Please find below a list of all the requirements needed to open an account. 

 

• Two forms of valid photo ID: Your passport is a must + secondary form of ID like your student ID, driver’s license… etc.
• Immigration documents: All legal documents, including your work or visit visa
• EIN (Employer Identification Number): This is a number assigned to you (foreign business) by the IRS, you need it to open a business in the US or open a bank account.
• US address: Most, if not all, banks require a physical US address to open a bank account; we’ll later discuss how to get one without necessarily being a US resident.
• Initial Deposit: Every bank requires you to have a minimum deposit in your account (the amount varies from one bank to another), it can be as low as $10 or as high as $100."

 

Real real easy right, especially considering i would not expect many to have two forms of id upon arrival... etc etc etc

 

[nrasmussen]

I like when you make a purchase using your debit card and enter your pin code.  They get the printout and make you sign it right above were it states 'No Signature Required'.  When I tell them what it says they just give me that blank stare.

At first I just scribbled my signature anyway without commenting, but now, after I learned enough Thai, I just point to the text and say that it says no need to sign and hand it back. Never had any arguments.

[Hank Gunn]

30 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

From the very first link that popped up on google: 

 

"

What requirements do you need?

For the bank to be able to trust you, security measures have been heightened. Some banks will even require a background check before approving your account. 

You will need to verify your identity, reliability, residency, and business. For businessmen, it is easier to set a bank account for your business if you have the required documents and approval. Please find below a list of all the requirements needed to open an account. 

 

• Two forms of valid photo ID: Your passport is a must + secondary form of ID like your student ID, driver’s license… etc.
• Immigration documents: All legal documents, including your work or visit visa
• EIN (Employer Identification Number): This is a number assigned to you (foreign business) by the IRS, you need it to open a business in the US or open a bank account.
• US address: Most, if not all, banks require a physical US address to open a bank account; we’ll later discuss how to get one without necessarily being a US resident.
• Initial Deposit: Every bank requires you to have a minimum deposit in your account (the amount varies from one bank to another), it can be as low as $10 or as high as $100."

 

Real real easy right, especially considering i would not expect many to have two forms of id upon arrival... etc etc etc

 

Apples and oranges. The EIN is only required for businesses. The photo ID requirement is pretty standard and when my wife came to the US, she only needed one (I believe it was her green card).

 

If you live in a country, you'll have an address. I and my wife had one in the US, and I have one here in Thailand.

 

Min. balances are standard for many/most banks. That's not a burden. So you need $10-$100 dollars. Why would anyone go to the bother of opening a bank account with such a small amount?

[Hank Gunn]

3 hours ago, CLW said:

Makes me shaking my head that we are being teached at Thai universities about project management especially the reporting and final report and outlook or long term benefits yet I saw so many projects that after photo op of important persons and money paid quickly got forgotten and never have been maintained or kept running...

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For what I'm about to say, please don't take this as a personal insult, but. If you're studying project management at a Thai university, it will be almost useless outside of Thailand and possibly the other ASEAN countries, with the exception of Singapore. Singapore, the US, Canada, and the EU don't put much credence in the quality of the Thai education system. (Before anyone jumps on me about knowing students who've gone to the west, yes I too can provide anecdotal evidence of a few success stories, but on the whole, the Thai education system is ranked pretty low on the world scale.) So as a westerner, if you're thinking of using this outside of Thailand, you'll most likely be disappointed.

[Nyezhov]

Paperwork? Have you gotten a mortgage recently? Or try building a housing development in the usa

Edited May 9, 2019 by Nyezhov

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, Hank Gunn said:

For what I'm about to say, please don't take this as a personal insult, but. If you're studying project management at a Thai university, it will be almost useless outside of Thailand and possibly the other ASEAN countries, with the exception of Singapore. Singapore, the US, Canada, and the EU don't put much credence in the quality of the Thai education system. (Before anyone jumps on me about knowing students who've gone to the west, yes I too can provide anecdotal evidence of a few success stories, but on the whole, the Thai education system is ranked pretty low on the world scale.) So as a westerner, if you're thinking of using this outside of Thailand, you'll most likely be disappointed.

And what are your education credentials that qualify you as a judge pray tell? 

[Hank Gunn]

9 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

And what are your education credentials that qualify you as a judge pray tell? 

Grad certificate in TEFL from Univ. of Calif. at Santa Cruz Extension (equivalent of 2 yrs of a MA Ed. TEFL; all credits transferrable to Univ. of San Francisco).

MA Education, Instructional Technology, from San Francisco State University.

 

Oh and just to add. All of the instructors in the TEFL program had advanced degrees from accredited schools (MAs and PhDs from UC, or Cal. State, or other similar large schools). All of the professors who had taught overseas in Asia (one in Thailand, and one in Korea, where her mother was from) said the same thing. The education system in most Asian countries (outside of Japan, a few schools in Korea, and the top-tier schools in India like the India Institute of Technology [their CalTech/MIT]) are considered inferior to western schools.

 

You don't have to take my word on this alone. Check the Education forums on this site and do some thorough reading to learn about the "no fail" system, the pay for grades and/or advancement etc. Now, I'll say this again. It doesn't mean there aren't bright people here, who have done well and could do well in the West. It's just that in general, the education system here is seriously lacking.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Hank Gunn

[CLW]

For what I'm about to say, please don't take this as a personal insult, but. If you're studying project management at a Thai university, it will be almost useless outside of Thailand and possibly the other ASEAN countries, with the exception of Singapore. Singapore, the US, Canada, and the EU don't put much credence in the quality of the Thai education system. (Before anyone jumps on me about knowing students who've gone to the west, yes I too can provide anecdotal evidence of a few success stories, but on the whole, the Thai education system is ranked pretty low on the world scale.) So as a westerner, if you're thinking of using this outside of Thailand, you'll most likely be disappointed.

Well, they are teaching it in the right way.
Application is another thing.
Especially with the older generation in the say.
Might take a few centuries to change.

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[CLW]

Paperwork? Have you gotten a mortgage recently? Or try building a housing development in the usa

Still, some documents, forms or requirements are out of any western thinking and ridiculous or actually obsolete.

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[Hank Gunn]

1 minute ago, CLW said:

Well, they are teaching it in the right way.
Application is another thing.
Especially with the older generation in the say.
Might take a few centuries to change.

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Well, all I can say is that if this is for a current job in Thailand or for use in Thailand, good luck. If you are pursuing a degree here in Thailand, you may find that it won't have much cache in your home country or anywhere else in the west.

[marcusarelus]

31 minutes ago, Hank Gunn said:

Grad certificate in TEFL from Univ. of Calif. at Santa Cruz Extension (equivalent of 2 yrs of a MA Ed. TEFL; all credits transferrable to Univ. of San Francisco).

MA Education, Instructional Technology, from San Francisco State University.

 

Oh and just to add. All of the instructors in the TEFL program had advanced degrees from accredited schools (MAs and PhDs from UC, or Cal. State, or other similar large schools). All of the professors who had taught overseas in Asia (one in Thailand, and one in Korea, where her mother was from) said the same thing. The education system in most Asian countries (outside of Japan, a few schools in Korea, and the top-tier schools in India like the India Institute of Technology [their CalTech/MIT]) are considered inferior to western schools.

 

You don't have to take my word on this alone. Check the Education forums on this site and do some thorough reading to learn about the "no fail" system, the pay for grades and/or advancement etc. Now, I'll say this again. It doesn't mean there aren't bright people here, who have done well and could do well in the West. It's just that in general, the education system here is seriously lacking.

I taught in Thailand 1968 to 1970 and again 2000 to 2005 in Government schools and for the Thai Navy and private colleges.  Kindergarten through college.  I'm a graduate of the University of Michigan. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Nyezhov]

21 minutes ago, CLW said:

Still, some documents, forms or requirements are out of any western thinking and ridiculous or actually obsolete.

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How do you know which ones and what they are for? ???? So hows about some examples

[Pedrogaz]

In immigration once I was asked for proof of where I lived....I didn't have anything with me as it is not legally required to extend your visa, indeed they had just asked me to fill in a form in English saying what documentation was needed and it was only 4 items (passport, pictures, forms filled in and money). I pointed this out to the IO and he said it was a new regulation which was a lie. 

I told them to look in the file for proof of my address as they have hundred of copies of my wife's blue book, wife's ID cards, 90 day reports etc. 

He wouldn't budge and I had to go back home and get the blue book and bring my wife back to sign. As the next day was a Saturday, my visa expired and I was stuck having to pay an overstay fine.

I ask myself, why bother collecting all these copies if you never ever want to refer to them in the future? My experience generally is that the more backward the nation, the more paperwork is required for the simplest things. This of course is a major reason for low productivity, inefficiency, and corruption. I am not holding my breath for Thailand to computerise or liberalise.

[CLW]

How do you know which ones and what they are for? [emoji846] So hows about some examples

For example Thai immigration forms. The one that I posted about certifying your classmate and the other form where you have to state your hospital, car type, colour, licence plate etc.
Luckily they were both cancelled now but I'm sure some genius will come up with more fantastic ideas.

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