Italian expat faces recklessness causing death charge over fatal boat collision

[Pattaya46]

15 hours ago, sambum said:

"errrrrr via the pictures ?" What "via the pictures"? I can only see one picture.

Here is another one :

 

[mogandave]

Look the location of the damage, clearly it just ran into the dock!

 

[5633572526]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:12 PM, Isaanbiker said:

The Italian seems to have a yacht/boat that should have the right instruments to see other vehicles on the ocean while he's steering his craft. You can hardly blame the poor fisherman for not having any nautical instruments on board, can you? 

 

   Anyway, you can/must call it recklessness driving/steering when his boat hits a much smaller one.

 

   What chance would an older man have not to get hit by a much bigger and heavier boat? The Italian was of course not trying to kill anybody, and he just wanted to enjoy his hobby.

 

   Besides the 200 K for the hospital, the family is also asking for 1.5 million baht compensation for the poor bloke's death.

 

     It was a preventable accident, not knowing the law on the oceans, but I'd think that you should always be aware of what's in front of you. 

 

     

 

  

 

   

A small wooden boat sitting low in the water would probably not show up on radar if that is the instrument you are referring to. 

[Jorgendk]

I think it seems that there is evidence enough to charge the Italian.

I think he would have been charged in any western country as well.

It is not up to the police to decide whether he is guilty or not. That is up to the court to decide.

If there is any doubt about an accident like this, I think the police have to charge him, and let the court decide whether he is guilty of anything or not.

Up till now the Italian has only been charged. Not declared guilty.

Whether the court ruling will be joust or not, is another matter, but we know nothing about that yet.
Up till now it seems that the Thai police have only done their job.

In any western country you also often see the police charge a person for something, that the court then later rule that he is innocent of. That is up to the court to decide, not the police.

[Kieran00001]

11 hours ago, sambum said:

These are the traditional water craft that I've seen in Esan - I believe they are called "longboats", but my wife calls them "dragon boats". I've seen them having races and gazed on in wonder at the physical effort required - especially in the Thailand heat. I've been here for many years now, and never seen the type of craft that you refer to. 

Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere, so before you start to give me more Thai lessons, or detention for not doing my homework, I will say goodnight and have pleasant dreams of life on your ocean wave! 

 

 

Dragon boats ars traditional Chinese boats however they are now found throughout the world, I believe they are an olympic event, but they also have zero relavance to this topic. 

 

The boats I am talking about are calked kolae boats and originate in Thailand and Malaysia, they are not from Isaan though, they are from the south.  The extended rowlocks seen on some, such as the one in this accident, allows rowing while standing.

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, 5633572526 said:

A small wooden boat sitting low in the water would probably not show up on radar if that is the instrument you are referring to. 

 

On shore, where this occured, it would be in breach of maritime law to rely on anything other than eyes and ears.

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, whaleboneman said:

Why is the damage on the port aft then?

 

Did I phrase that wrongly?  The boat was coming from the starboard, the direction maritime law states you must yield to, of course a collision with a boat coming from the starboard would be hit on its port side.

[Kieran00001]

4 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

I see two possibilities: 1) The reporter inaccurately called it a longtail; 2) The editor stuck in a stock photo of a little Thai boat. Or both. We don't really know if the photo shows the actual boat involved in the accident. I don't see much damage. Does anybody have better info from previous reliable reports?

 

I expect it was the former as a lot of people say longtail for kolae's regardless of whether they have been turned into longtails or not.

 

As for you not being able to see damage, did you notice that its underwater?  I expect the larger boat went over the top of it.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Kieran00001

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Here is another one :

 

 

Well done, clearly a rowboat with raised rowlocks and nowhere large enough for an engine nor a broken engine mount.

[mogandave]

 
Well done, clearly a rowboat with raised rowlocks and nowhere large enough for an engine nor a broken engine mount.

The rectangular blue thing in the photo is the secret underwater engine compartment.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

The rectangular blue thing in the photo is the secret underwater engine compartment.

 

 

That's exactly right, its known as the pond skater, the modern version of the seagull, so small and light it doesn't break the surface tension of the wated.

[SiSePuede419]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

No one "needs" to be driving a boat for "pleasure".

 

He wasn't fishing for food.

 

He wasn't going from Point A to Point B for transportation.

 

Another rich idiot who thinks he's superior to locals.

 

LOOK AT ME!  I'M ON A BOAT!  I'M RICHER THAN YOU.

[sambum]

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Dragon boats ars traditional Chinese boats however they are now found throughout the world, I believe they are an olympic event, but they also have zero relavance to this topic. 

 

The boats I am talking about are calked kolae boats and originate in Thailand and Malaysia, they are not from Isaan though, they are from the south.  The extended rowlocks seen on some, such as the one in this accident, allows rowing while standing.

 

 

To be honest, the "kolae" looks substantially different to the "prowed" boat in the picture above. I would also suggest that the kolae looks more like a craft that would be used in forest rivers collecting firewood rather than at sea collecting the oceans' bounty!

 

And I only put in the photos and narrative re the "dragon boats" to let you know that I have been to other parts of Thailand rather than just the "tourist traps" However, as I have only been to the South of Thailand once on a visa run, and am in no hurry to get back, that would possibly explain why I have never seen a kolae! 

 

And to save you the trouble of further explanation of maritime facts and fiction (e.g. the difference between a boat and a ship etc) I suggest that this discussion has run its course (in much the same way as a young man was found dead in his car on Koh Samui, and there were more posts arguing what type of car he was in than the reasons for his death!), so let's get back on topic, and RIP to the old man - regardless of whose fault it was, at that age he didn't deserve to go that way.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by sambum

[mogandave]

 
That's exactly right, its known as the pond skater, the modern version of the seagull, so small and light it doesn't break the surface tension of the wated.

And because it uses a hydrogen cell, there are no exhaust bubbles...

[mogandave]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
 
No one "needs" to be driving a boat for "pleasure".
 
He wasn't fishing for food.
 
He wasn't going from Point A to Point B for transportation.
 
Another rich idiot who thinks he's superior to locals.
 
LOOK AT ME!  I'M ON A BOAT!  I'M RICHER THAN YOU.

So you always wanted a boat and could never afford one?

[Kieran00001]

21 minutes ago, sambum said:

 

 

To be honest, the "kolae" looks substantially different to the "prowed" boat in the picture above. I would also suggest that the kolae looks more like a craft that would be used in forest rivers collecting firewood rather than at sea collecting the oceans' bounty!

 

And I only put in the photos and narrative re the "dragon boats" to let you know that I have been to other parts of Thailand rather than just the "tourist traps" However, as I have only been to the South of Thailand once on a visa run, and am in no hurry to get back, that would possibly explain why I have never seen a kolae! 

 

And to save you the trouble of further explanation of maritime facts and fiction (e.g. the difference between a boat and a ship etc) I suggest that this discussion has run its course (in much the same way as a young man was found dead in his car on Koh Samui, and there were more posts arguing what type of car he was in than the reasons for his death!), so let's get back on topic, and RIP to the old man - regardless of whose fault it was, at that age he didn't deserve to go that way.

 

 

Both the same category of boat, and by the way, that is the sea, you can tell by the type of tree, which only grow in salt waters.

[Kieran00001]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So you always wanted a boat and could never afford one?

 

 

Desperate much?

[mogandave]

 
Desperate much?

Methinks dude could use a little break...

[Isaanbiker]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:26 PM, madmen said:

What instruments will detect a wooden boat and send out a screaming alarm ? you cant be serious there is no such thing or the mega ships would be using them instead of running over small boats in shipping lanes

Do you think that the Thai fisherman had a megaphone or loudspeakers and a mike on his longtail boat?

 

   

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Right ok so I've asked you twice for a scenario where the little wooden rowing boat could be to blame - have I missed the reply?

 

Or just perhaps he had a power breakfast that morning, guzzled a few protein shakes down and in a fit of pique rowed his little wooden boat with such ferocity into a reinforced fibre glass power boat that he died of the injuries ?

 

Over to you detective

I am not sure about what maritime law says, but the only case the little boat could be at fault, is IF the accident happened in the night... And there was not any light on the small boat.

Edited May 11, 2019 by mauGR1

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Methinks dude could use a little break...

 

 

Go for it if it stops you persisting for a moment frkm attacking people in these most inane ways.

[Isaanbiker]

8 hours ago, 5633572526 said:

A small wooden boat sitting low in the water would probably not show up on radar if that is the instrument you are referring to. 

It should, but there must be a law where the Captain of the bigger boat must visually check for any vehicles in front of him. We're in the 21st century and radars these days are pretty good. But only if you look at them. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Benroon said:

Right ok so I've asked you twice for a scenario where the little wooden rowing boat could be to blame - have I missed the reply?

 

Or just perhaps he had a power breakfast that morning, guzzled a few protein shakes down and in a fit of pique rowed his little wooden boat with such ferocity into a reinforced fibre glass power boat that he died of the injuries ?

 

Over to you detective

 

I've never said or suggested the Thai guy was to blame, although since we have zero details on how the crash actually happened, I'm not making any presumptions one way or another.

 

However, even assuming the Thai guy was totally blameless, that doesn't automatically translate into the farang guy being "recklessly responsible" for the death.  Whether the farang guy was "recklessly responsible" would depend on the details of just how the crash occurred, which for now remain undisclosed.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Kieran00001]

16 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I've never said or suggested the Thai guy was to blame, although since we have zero details on how the crash actually happened, I'm not making any presumptions one way or another.

 

However, even assuming the Thai guy was totally blameless, that doesn't automatically translate into the farang guy being "recklessly responsible" for the death.  Whether the farang guy was "recklessly responsible" would depend on the details of just how the crash occurred, which for now remain undisclosed.

 

 

Actually I think we know enough.  He ran over a boat crossing his path from the starboard side, that is a breach of maritime law, which states that the boat approaching on the right must maintain its course and speed while the other boat must yield.  To not obey that rule would be reckless operation of a boat, to cause an accident while not obeying that rule would be reckless endangerment of life.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Actually I think we know enough.  He ran over a boat crossing his path from the starboard side, that is a breach of maritime law, which states that the boat approaching on the right must maintain its course and speed while the other boat must yield.  To not obey that rule would be reckless operation of a boat, to cause an accident while not obeying that rule would be reckless endangerment of life.

 

What's your source for that account? Also, in your description above, you're assuming the farang guy was in control of his boat at the time, which may or may not have been the case.

 

Meanwhile, the farang guy isn't facing any charges under maritime law... He's facing criminal charge(s) under Thai criminal law, which I'm pretty sure has its own definition or context for what constitutes "reckless" that probably doesn't hinge on right vs left.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, Benroon said:

yep because civilization can't move forward until we've found a radar that can detect a wooden boat (facepalm)

 

For accuracy, in this rather sad materialistic world the guy who finds the 'cure' to baldness will be that richest man on earth !

 

We found it about 40 years ago anyway, they've got radar that can detect a log. 

 

As for the baldness cure, there is a product that will make your hair grow, just no guarantee that it will be on your head, for some its the back of the hands that grow the most, for others its rhe shoulders does that count?

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

And what's your source for that account?

 

Just the damage on the port side, how else could it have happened other than he was crossing from the starboard?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Just the damage on the port side, how else could it have happened other than he was crossing from the starboard?

 Neither of us know exactly how it happened. That's been my point all along. You're making assumptions without having all the pertinent facts.

 

For me, I'd like to wait and see what the official investigation concludes before presuming anyone guilty.

 

Meanwhile, I found it intriguing that the police released the farang boat guy on bail...all the while saying he was facing a reckless death charge. That's more than a bit unusual IMHO, especially because the police seem to generally fear that farangs facing criminal charges will flee if given the opportunity...

 

Unless, the whole point of the exercise was not to prosecute a criminal case, but instead, to promote the resolution of a financial payout to the family of the deceased.  That also might explain the total absence of any details or description of how/where/when the crash occurred in the police's public statements thus far.

 

The Thai authorities don't have any problem keeping the 70 year old Italian fishermen locked up without bail... all for supposedly illegal fishing. But the boat guy is involved in a collision in which another person dies, and he's released on bail... Go figure.

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/italian-men-both-70-still-behind-bars-pending-trial-for-fishing-in-national-park-71346.php#MstUmfvg8DVI6g8x.97

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Damrongsak]

Here's a similar rowboat.  They do sit pretty low in the water. 

 

[mogandave]

 Neither of us know exactly how it happened. That's been my point all along. You're making assumptions without having all the pertinent facts.
 
For me, I'd like to wait and see what the official investigation concludes before presuming anyone guilty.
 
Meanwhile, I found it intriguing that the police released the farang boat guy on bail...all the while saying he was facing a reckless death charge. That's more than a bit unusual IMHO, especially because the police seem to generally fear that farangs facing criminal charges will flee if given the opportunity...
 
Unless, the whole point of the exercise was not to prosecute a criminal case, but instead, to promote the resolution of a financial payout to the family of the deceased.  That also might explain the total absence of any details or description of how/where/when the crash occurred in the police's public statements thus far.
 
The Thai authorities don't have any problem keeping the 70 year old Italian fishermen locked up without bail... all for supposedly illegal fishing. But the boat guy is involved in a collision in which another person dies, and he's released on bail... Go figure.
 
https://www.thephuketnews.com/italian-men-both-70-still-behind-bars-pending-trial-for-fishing-in-national-park-71346.php#MstUmfvg8DVI6g8x.97
 

We really have no way of knowing the Italian was/is a fisherman do we? As far as l know, those jobs and businesses are protected.

Should we not wait to see what the official investigation concludes, rather making presumptions?