Is it legal to be a digital nomad in CM?

[jabis]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:36 AM, Hanuman2547 said:

Is it legal to be a digital nomad in CM?

The short answer is that it doesn't matter if it is CM or Thailand the answer would be NO.  However, many are able to do it.  Personally I would just stay in Thailand a few months out of the year and spend the remainder of the time somewhere else.  Who wants to be in Thailand during the hot season of March, April, and May?  

"Who wants to be in Thailand during the hot season of March, April, and May?"
Me - I love it hot ????

More on point; 
There're quite a lot of opportunities to go with a Non-B visa (and yearly extensions of stay) by the book, but surely won't come without a cost (thru BOI endorsed companies, presuming you can invoice ~3K$/month minimum, and have a degree or department of labour approved amount of work experience on your specialized field).
Upside being, should you want to target permanent residency, or citizenship, you'll have income taxes handled, you'll be a part of the social security scheme by employer (basic health coverage). 

If you just lounge by with tourist visa's you'd be well prepared to expect at some point you'll probably be denied entry, so purchasing condos, cars, bikes etc - whatever it is, you cannot leave behind - that might be hard to liquidate whilst out of country. 

Evaluate the risk on your own accord and then make an informed decision after that ^^

[moontang]

On 5/21/2019 at 11:57 AM, AlexRich said:

Any retiree or tourist with a stock portfolio connected online to a broker is potentially making money whilst staying in Thailand, presuming that they are even only occasionally buying or selling.

 

So no issue with digital nomads ... it's illegal to drive over the speed limit but I suspect 90% of the driving population around the world are doing 31 mph plus in a thirty.

 

I don't quite understand why people get on their high horse about this subject ... digital nomads harm no one, and bring money into the country. 

Wrong... Being custodian of your own assets is addressed in Thai law, and is not considered working, but that doesn't include being a property manager, or an unlicensed financial advisor, like the former CEC President. A retiree can open a Thai brokerage account without WP, and openly trade his own money, fully visible to all. The law is much more clear on that, than mailing twenty packages a day for your dropshipping company or greeting the Chinese visitors at your airbnb rental. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by moontang

[donnacha]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:13 AM, CMoldie said:

There is such a law, basically saying that anything that a Thai can do cannot be done by a foreigner

No offense intended, but that is complete nonsense.

There are certain reserved professions but, beyond that, Thai companies have a straightforward process to hire foreigners if they wish to do so. There are 2.2 million foreigners working legally in Thailand.

You may have been trying to say is that it is illegal to work without a work permit but, again, that is not quite correct. It is illegal to have a job based in Thailand without a permit, but that is not what digital nomads are doing.

Even before the Internet existed, there was a long tradition of visitors to Thailand bringing work with them, whether that be working on a book or dreaming up a new ad campaign while relaxing by the pool.

No country, not even America, has ever defined such work as a job over which they have jurisdiction. As long as the work itself has no material tie to the country, such as the client being in that country, or the work being somehow dependent on being in that country, it is considered to not exist within that country.

This is not only universally understood, but it has also been facilitated in Thailand for decades by laws that delineate the type of work they want to protect: working for or selling to people in Thailand.

So, as I said, not only would a law against people bringing work with them be impossible to police, such a law does not exist.
 

 

On 5/21/2019 at 9:13 AM, CMoldie said:

Incidentally I am old and live in Chiang Mai all the year round. I am neither bitter nor insane.

I never referred to the anti-nomad brigade as insane, but I believe bitter is a fair deduction when observing how angry many expats become over an imagined crime that, one would think, affects their lives in no way, shape or form.

When I say bitter, I am not just talking about the keyboard warriors here on ThaiVisa. I have witnessed, first hand, the deep-seated anger of some Chiang Mai expats when they realized how easy it was for the nomads to get out of town when the smokey season began early this January. I saw grown men barely conceal their resentment that others were able to get their families out, while they themselves did not have that flexibility and had to, quite literally, suck it up.

I do not regard your analysis as bitter. Slightly mistake on a key point, but you did not express any animus towards your fellow Westerners working online. Indeed, your advice about keeping their heads down is spot on.

The danger of conflating the laws regarding jobs in Thailand with the legal act of working on your own non-Thai-related stuff is that you end up with thousands of people, like the OP, becoming worried and misinformed about doing something that is no problem, and possibly missing out on a more interesting and flexible life. I want everyone, young and old, to have that confidence and freedom.



 

Edited May 23, 2019 by donnacha

[hml367]

From the WORKING OF ALIEN ACT, B.E. 2551 (2008)  of Thailand:

 

Section 5. In this Act: "Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality; "Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits; "Permit" means a work permit; "Holder of permit" means an alien who has been granted a permit;

 

As has been posted, and in my opinion, the most important thing is how long the DN will stay in Thailand on what type of Visa.

Edited May 23, 2019 by hml367

[AlexRich]

On 5/22/2019 at 6:25 AM, bkk6060 said:

Like I said I am an old fart.  Most of my very happy 32 years of work were without computers and involved physicality.

I am sure they are smart people for today's world, it just seems like an odd job and job description to me.

Certainly glad and proud of the career I had which to me made a greater contribution and provided more satisfaction them digital nomadism...

But, good luck to them.

 

PS: I hope they have purchased medical insurance for their travels ????

 

What you mean is that you hope they get ill and have no insurance. Everything about your post says nothing about digital nomads and everything about you.

[Happy Grumpy]

36 minutes ago, hml367 said:

From the WORKING OF ALIEN ACT, B.E. 2551 (2008)  of Thailand:

 

They aren't working in Thailand, they are working online. ????

 

[DLock]

Such a futile argument.

 

We get it. Digital Nomads may technically need a work permit and probably should pay tax, but the reality of anyone ever getting caught is so close to nil, that it's not something the DM's will ever have to worry about.

 

Continue sitting in a Chan Klan hostel with Wifi selling elephant pants to the UK and no one will ever know.

 

These old Crusties are just overly-principled and bitter that Sven and Jurgen can come to Thailand and live for 700 baht per day while working as few hours as they want until they decide Bali looks nice.

 

Enjoy your DM life, see the world and do something that scares you everyday.

[moontang]

As stated above, the bottom line is going to be the visa.  A few of the dn scammer types that are working selling the dn dream would likely be the ones called out, if any. An interesting question might be who has a tougher time with visa, dns or English Teachers?

[Happy Grumpy]

On 5/25/2019 at 10:20 AM, DLock said:

Digital Nomads may technically need a work permit

If they're doing this:

 

On 5/25/2019 at 10:20 AM, DLock said:

selling elephant pants to the UK

They would.

 

 

On 5/25/2019 at 10:20 AM, DLock said:

and probably should pay tax,

They should.

 

And can.

 

You don't need to have a Thai WP to pay Thai tax on your income in Thailand.

 

 

[scorecard]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:43 PM, Happy Grumpy said:

They aren't working in Thailand, they are working online. ????

 

Sitting at a keyboard / suspended over land which is part of Thailand and using keyboard is working in Thailand, why is this so difficult to comprehend?

 

Ohh sorry, life for nomads is different / different rules / the interpretation of the law is different for nomads, very special people, same for so called millennials it's all different and they can do whatever they want, laws for millenials are different. Really? 

 

Saw this a while back when a young loud moth over-confident US millenial challenged his US highly respected boss, the millenial said 'you don't understand, you cannot lead millennials the same way as older people, you have to give them freedom and allow they do do whatever they like, how come you don't understand this'?  

 

This is  while back when there was a lot of talk about young highly creative millennials. Somehow that talk has all disappeared and is history. 

 

 

[EricTh]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:43 PM, Happy Grumpy said:

They aren't working in Thailand, they are working online. ????

 

 

Working online while physically in Thailand. That's called working.

 

I've seen people working online as English teachers while in Thailand or selling retirement books or even selling 'learn Thai' book while they are on tourist or retirement visa.

 

If you don't think it is illegal, please give the name, passport number, country of that person and let immigration investigate whether it is legal or not.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by EricTh

[moontang]

30 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Working online while physically in Thailand. That's called working.

 

I've seen people working online as English teachers while in Thailand or selling retirement books or even selling 'learn Thai' book while they are on tourist or retirement visa.

 

If you don't think it is illegal, please give the name, passport number, country of that person and let immigration investigate whether it is legal or not.

 

 

I am surprised you are not aware that many immigration Offices refuse to take the reports, they get so many... Overstaying  is a different animal, though.  

[Happy Grumpy]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

If you don't think it is illegal, please give the name, passport number, country of that person and let immigration investigate whether it is legal or not.

No need to.

 

Just give them the addresses of the 1000's of Co-Working Spaces here. 

 

https://www.coworker.com/search/thailand

 

 

Quote

 

Immigration officials detained 11 foreigners at a co-working space in Chiang Mai Wednesday morning, acting on a tip-off about illegal workers.

Flanked by six uniformed soldiers, the officials arrived unannounced at Punspace at 10am, taking pictures and demanding information about the business, witnesses said.

 

 

The Punspace members were all released from the immigration office by around 3pm, after officials verified none of the 11 had overstayed their visas, been blacklisted or were working illegally.

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/

 

 

 

Oh. ????

[Happy Grumpy]

23 hours ago, scorecard said:

Sitting at a keyboard / suspended over land which is part of Thailand and using keyboard is working in Thailand,

I'm afraid not.

 

 

See the above post. ^ 

[EricTh]

9 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

No need to.

 

Just give them the addresses of the 1000's of Co-Working Spaces here. 

 

https://www.coworker.com/search/thailand

 

 

 

That is a different case. The immigration were looking for foreigners who they thought were working for Punspace illegally. Once they found that they were not working for Punspace, they were let off.

 

Their interrogation questions such as 'Which Muay Thai school did they go to' shows immigration didn't know they were working online.

 

They didn't check whether they were working online for themselves while in Thailand probably due to their lack of English skills.

 

If somebody were to specifically complain that they were working online by being English teachers , immigration would focus on these instead.

 

Digital nomads activities such as Blogging and Vlogging is alright but not some other activities such as teaching or selling which generate income directly.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by EricTh

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

That is a different case. The immigration were looking for foreigners who they thought were working for Punspace illegally. Once they found that they were not working for Punspace, they were let off.

 

Their interrogation questions such as 'Which Muay Thai school did they go to' shows immigration didn't know they were working online.

 

They didn't check whether they were working online for themselves while in Thailand probably due to their lack of English skills.

 

If somebody were to specifically complain that they were working online by being English teachers , immigration would focus on these instead.

 

Digital nomads activities such as Blogging and Vlogging is alright but not some other activities such as teaching or selling which generate income directly.

 

 

You're very funny. ????

 

Quote

 

Foreigners working for a Thai firm must hold a valid non-immigrant (Type B) visa, but so-called ‘digital nomads’ – who are often self-employed – can sidestep that requirement.

Chiang Mai Immigration Superintendent Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun assured business leaders and foreign consular officials last month that ‘digital nomads’ are permitted to use tourists visas.

 

it a bit easier for other digital nomads, I think, because they [immigration officials] know what a co-working space is now.”

 

From the same article. ????

[mike787]

Be careful!  Likely you will be violating a thai law.

[elektrified]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:40 AM, EricTh said:

You can give the list of retirees in Thailand (passport number, name and country of origin) who sell retirement books, services, membership online while they are living in Thailand to immigration office and let them investigate.

 

I am sure that's the only sure way to find out.

 

Be prepared to be banned from entering Thailand for xx years.

Rubbish. Years ago, I went to a top Bangkok law firm with about 20 lawyers and one of their specialties was Immigration law. I asked one the associates this very question and was told that as long as the business is outside of Thailand it is not an issue. Many of us have partnerships and business in foreign countries and spend a good portion of the day corresponding and dealing with these interests. You are talking about people doing business inside Thailand when you say "....who sell retirement books, services, membership online....". Services and memberships on-line for Thailand-based interests is clearly a different issue.

[elektrified]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:45 AM, EricTh said:

Many people don't understand the meaning of tourist and retirement visa.

 

A tourist is supposed to be out visiting tourist attractions, sight-seeing and/or learning the Thai culture.

 

A retiree is supposed to be reading books, watching TV, gardening, cooking, chit-chatting with friends. Occasionally, doing what a tourist does.

 

But not doing work online so that they can earn some money in a foreign bank.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Happy Grumpy]

Besides it being completely legal, another aspect that is blatantly clear, is just how irate it makes the old fogies. 

 

They hate seeing young, happy, carefree Westerners, having a great time here while easily making money.

 

 

Time for another Chang, moan, and stress over health insurance and how to get around needing 800k in the bank, while the Thai you pay to be your partner squawks on the phone in a language you don't understand while munching on bugs and chicken innards?  ????

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

 

From the same article. ????

 

It depends on what the definition is of a 'digital nomad' for immigration.

 

Immigration thinks that digital nomad are just people blogging or vlogging or participating in forums.

 

If you are teaching English online, selling things online, that is a different story.

 

Did immigration specifically say that teaching online to Thai students or international students are permitted on a tourist visa or retirement?

 

I read somewhere that even if we teach English for free to Thai students, we still need to get volunteer-visa. So what's the difference between teaching online and teaching in person while you are in Thailand?

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by EricTh

[moontang]

Most of the online teachers are teaching Chinese kids. 

[Bill97]

4 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

 
I read somewhere that ....
 
 
 

 

You can read somewhere that the world is flat, that the moon is made of blue cheese, that smoking is not bad for your health and many many other stupid things. Just because it was written does not mean it is worth repeating.



Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

[balo]

On 5/19/2019 at 4:39 PM, EricTh said:

Tourists are supposed to visit tourist places and spending money not doing work on their website and earning money.

Nonsense!  They can do whatever they want as long as they do no steal jobs from Thais and breaking the law. Digital nomads are welcome here, that's why we have at least 300 co-working spaces in CM and BKK.

Edited June 3, 2019 by balo

[elektrified]

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

It depends on what the definition is of a 'digital nomad' for immigration.

 

Immigration thinks that digital nomad are just people blogging or vlogging or participating in forums.

 

If you are teaching English online, selling things online, that is a different story.

 

Did immigration specifically say that teaching online to Thai students or international students are permitted on a tourist visa or retirement?

 

I read somewhere that even if we teach English for free to Thai students, we still need to get volunteer-visa. So what's the difference between teaching online and teaching in person while you are in Thailand?

 

 

 

If you dig deep into the Immigration code, you will see that foreigners have an absolute right to sell their personal property in Thailand; whether you sell it over the Internet, in a newspaper or whatever.  I don't know about real property although I see plenty of foreigners selling that too. I suspect selling condominiums is legal.

 

I saw the code section posted on-line only about 3 weeks ago. I don't remember where. You really should research before you give out advice because most of your information is incorrect.

Edited June 3, 2019 by elektrified

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, elektrified said:

If you dig deep into the Immigration code, you will see that foreigners have an absolute right to sell their personal property in Thailand; whether you sell it over the Internet, in a newspaper or whatever.  I don't know about real property although I see plenty of foreigners selling that too. I suspect selling condominiums is legal.

 

I saw the code section posted on-line only about 3 weeks ago. I don't remember where. You really should research before you give out advice because most of your information is incorrect.

Did I say you can't sell your own property, your own bike etc?

 

If you sell other Thai properties online, then you are considered a unregistered property agent and that needs a work permit.

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by EricTh

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, balo said:

Nonsense!  They can do whatever they want as long as they do no steal jobs from Thais and breaking the law. Digital nomads are welcome here, that's why we have at least 300 co-working spaces in CM and BKK.

English teachers also don't 'steal jobs from Thais' so why do they need a work permit to teach in Thailand? You do agree that most English teachers are not native Thai, right?

 

There's no point arguing when you haven't given any names, passport number, country and their activities where those info can be sent to immigration so they can investigate whether it is legal or not.

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by EricTh

[elektrified]

36 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Did I say you can't sell your own property, your own bike etc?

 

If you sell other Thai properties online, then you are considered a unregistered property agent and that needs a work permit.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Other Thai properties?

 

Sell your own bike? You could sell 100 of them if you like.

Edited June 3, 2019 by elektrified

[GeorgeCross]

On 5/27/2019 at 9:53 PM, Happy Grumpy said:

You don't need to have a Thai WP to pay Thai tax on your income in Thailand.

 

 

correct, if you bill using a thai account

 

but what if your blog sold elephant pants.. fulfilled from china, to clients in USA, billed by an eastern european payment processor that deposited said funds into a UK bank account? 

 

all done automagically whilst you sipped mai tais by the pool?

 

coz, duh, thats how it works.

 

smart nomads are owners not workers

 

the only 'work' done is in the setup

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by GeorgeCross

[GeorgeCross]

7 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Besides it being completely legal, another aspect that is blatantly clear, is just how irate it makes the old fogies. 

 

They hate seeing young, happy, carefree Westerners, having a great time here while easily making money.

 

 

Time for another Chang, moan, and stress over health insurance and how to get around needing 800k in the bank, while the Thai you pay to be your partner squawks on the phone in a language you don't understand while munching on bugs and chicken innards?  ????

 

in fairness young guys thai GFs still squawk on the phone in a language they dont understand while munching on god knows what  and its pretty rare they picking up the tab ????