Fingerprints - what are they checked against?

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

It is not possible to increase the resolution of a photo.

My pupillary distance is 68mm, measured at the opticians. On the photo I use on my passport it is 9.2 mm.

No way can that be accurately measured when it is seven times bigger. A millimeter on the photo would make a big difference.

But I am sure someone will explain to me.

Sorry to correct you, but you are wrong on both the statements that you have made.

 

Firstly, it has been possible for many years to increase the resolution of a low-quality photograph.  If you do a search on Google “How do I increase the resolution of a photo” all will be revealed. 

 

The photo which you provided to the authority who issued your passport will have been to a specific size, with your face (chin to crown) being between 70 to 80% of the height of the photo. 

 

The authority which issued your passport has high quality equipment and sophisticated software that enables them to digitize your original photo and then crop it and increase the resolution and size so that they can place an encrypted, high resolution picture of just your face (no shoulders or space above your head) onto the chip that is embedded into your passport.

 

Secondly, facial recognition systems rely upon comparing one image against another.  Your passport has a high-resolution photo of your face held on the encrypted chip that is embedded in your passport.  This photo becomes available to the Immigration system when the IO scans the photo page of your passport.  The IO takes a photo of you, and the facial recognition system then compares the two photos.

 

Facial recognition systems rely upon identifying several points on the face and producing a digital map.  The maps of both photos are compared to produce a figure that gives a reliability match.

 

I have attached below a sample of a facial recognition map.

 

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Sorry to correct you, but you are wrong on both the statements that you have made.

 

Firstly, it has been possible for many years to increase the resolution of a low-quality photograph.  If you do a search on Google “How do I increase the resolution of a photo” all will be revealed. 

 

The photo which you provided to the authority who issued your passport will have been to a specific size, with your face (chin to crown) being between 70 to 80% of the height of the photo. 

 

The authority which issued your passport has high quality equipment and sophisticated software that enables them to digitize your original photo and then crop it and increase the resolution and size so that they can place an encrypted, high resolution picture of just your face (no shoulders or space above your head) onto the chip that is embedded into your passport.

 

Secondly, facial recognition systems rely upon comparing one image against another.  Your passport has a high-resolution photo of your face held on the encrypted chip that is embedded in your passport.  This photo becomes available to the Immigration system when the IO scans the photo page of your passport.  The IO takes a photo of you, and the facial recognition system then compares the two photos.

 

Facial recognition systems rely upon identifying several points on the face and producing a digital map.  The maps of both photos are compared to produce a figure that gives a reliability match.

 

I have attached below a sample of a facial recognition map.

 

hanks for this interesting info.

How does it do when for example someone (usually a man) grows or removes facial hair, or wears glasses. Cheers.

[tabarin]

Missing a point: Checked against the biometric data available in passport (unless you still have one without).
 

[tabarin]

7 hours ago, wgdanson said:

hanks for this interesting info.

How does it do when for example someone (usually a man) grows or removes facial hair, or wears glasses. Cheers.

Obviously you can see in the example that glasses would not be a problem, sunglasses are not allowed anyway, facial hair would have no effect on the sample map too.

Edited June 3, 2019 by tabarin

[Chelseafan]

17 hours ago, mvdf said:

Yes of course! Stop trying to instill a sense of denial in nervous westerners who are here hiding from the law of their lands! 

 

If you have anything to hide, this technology will expose you and if you are found guilty of whatever you're hiding, you will face the law. 

 

End of the days of using Asia as hiding places.

 

Bugger, I'm off to Bolivia then ????

 

If I was guilty of course ????

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Chelseafan

[wgdanson]

8 hours ago, tabarin said:

Obviously you can see in the example that glasses would not be a problem, sunglasses are not allowed anyway, facial hair would have no effect on the sample map too.

Disagree. What if a guy had a Groucho Marx moustache which covered the top lip and edges of the mouth, or a Muslim style beard, then the 'map' could not be read accurately, within a fraction of a millimtre as has been suggested these measurements need to be to identify a face

[007 RED]

20 hours ago, wgdanson said:

hanks for this interesting info.

How does it do when for example someone (usually a man) grows or removes facial hair, or wears glasses. Cheers.

FYI….

Point 1.   The face map example which I provided in my previous post (#31) was a very basic example just to illustrate that fundamental principle of the so-called facial map.  There are in fact 80 distinguishable ‘landmarks’ on the face which modern high-tech systems are able to detect.. The system does not need to use all 80 'landmarks' so if a few ‘landmarks’ are not detectable, or located by the system, the system is still capable of functioning and producing a high percentage match score.

 

Point 2.   The system does not actually measure (in inches or millimetres) the distance between any given points on the face map.  The system just plots the position of each point and give that point a co-ordinate reference (rather like the GPS co-ordinates for your home).  It is these co-ordinates that the system uses to compare the picture that is embedded on the chip in your passport against the photo taken by the IO, or one that may already be held within the Immigration system – bearing in mind, each time you enter/depart the Kingdom the IO has taken a photo of you as well as each time you renew your permission to stay.

 

Point 3.   Passport photo and wearing glasses:  The wearing of tinted glasses has always been prohibited, or at least since 2001, for passport photos, and the IO will instruct someone wearing them to remove them when they present themselves at Immigration arrivals/departures.  The wearing of normal spectacles was permitted for passport photos up until July 2018 provided that they did not cast a shadow or produce glare.  However, since July 2018 most, if not all, passport issuing authorities now prohibit the wearing of spectacles for the passport photo unless there is extenuating medical reasons.

 

Point 4.  Facial hair (Beards/moustaches) can be a problem for the facial recognition system, particularly if it is a full beard or very bushy moustache.  The problem can be exacerbated if the person has recently grown the facial hair and the passport photo shows clean shaven.  That said, because the system can still plot a facial map using any number of alternative facial ‘landmarks’ it should still be capable of making a high percentage match.

[Farangwithaplan]

4 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Disagree. What if a guy had a Groucho Marx moustache which covered the top lip and edges of the mouth, or a Muslim style beard, then the 'map' could not be read accurately, within a fraction of a millimtre as has been suggested these measurements need to be to identify a face

There must be allowance for discrepancies. When finger prints are read from a scanner, the scanner looks for markers, or similar traits. Due to fingerprints being a attached to fingers, and with fingers being known to move a little even when trying to keep them still, the scanner may only need to match 80% (for example) of all known trait point locations.

 

It is likely face recognition works in a similar way. Iff a high enough percentage of known facial points are highlighted, it will be classed as a pass. People's face can become 'puffy' from excess salt, liquid, hormones, drugs and alcohol so the system will have inherent allowance for such changes. What that tolerance is set to will be well defined in internal literature for the operation of the units.

 

 

Update: Just saw Red's much better answer.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Farangwithaplan
added

[NanLaew]

On 6/2/2019 at 8:33 AM, RJRS1301 said:

Link to other countries databases could be problematic though

Why? What have you done?

[RJRS1301]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Link to other countries databases could be problematic though

Why? What have you done?

Referring to getting permission to exchange information ???? 

Transnational privacy laws, etc ????

 

[Guderian]

They must also realise that somebody blacklisted only has to get a new passport and he's free to come and go again. Once they are checking the fingerprints with every entry that option will effectively be closed down.

[StayinThailand2much]

On 6/2/2019 at 10:51 AM, RJRS1301 said:

They will have you on record from the first imprint to check against second time through, first time is building the content of the database

If I have a new passport with a different number, and I have been finger-scanned entering with the old passport, can (and do) they connect the passports via the finger-scanning?

[sanemax]

On 7/21/2019 at 1:51 PM, Guderian said:

They must also realise that somebody blacklisted only has to get a new passport and he's free to come and go again. Once they are checking the fingerprints with every entry that option will effectively be closed down.

As long as the new PP has a different birth-date , different name  and a photo that doesnt match up with the old one 

[RJRS1301]

8 hours ago, sanemax said:

As long as the new PP has a different birth-date , different name  and a photo that doesnt match up with the old one 

The passport can be changed (or if criminally connected a forgery), fingerprints cannot be.

[Almer]

Why would anybody worry  about finger prints, every time i open my phone my thumb print is in the cloud for the world to see.

a suggestion would be a photo of your more intimate piece on your passport ID page, i am told they are all different with there own idiosyncrasies, so to speak.  

[Gumballl]

1 hour ago, Almer said:

Why would anybody worry  about finger prints, every time i open my phone my thumb print is in the cloud for the world to see.

a suggestion would be a photo of your more intimate piece on your passport ID page, i am told they are all different with there own idiosyncrasies, so to speak.  

Thumb print on the iPhone is stored in the device, not the cloud. Otherwise you would not be able to "open" the device when there is no service.

[SilverBeast]

On 6/2/2019 at 8:12 PM, thesetat2013 said:

It is kind of a scary thought allowing thailand immigration to retain biometric and passport data on their tourists given their capacity for permitting easy access to their database as shown previously with incompetent use of passwords. 

But what choice does anyone have if wanting to enter now into Thailand. There will always be an underlying fear identities will het stolen at some point in the future. 

The choice is simple.  I'm never coming back.  Everyone else should do the same so that the Tourist industries crumble and then maybe the governments will finally realized the population isn't going to put up with this <deleted>.

[SilverBeast]

On 6/3/2019 at 1:22 AM, xtrnuno41 said:

Good , you can spread all kinds of diseases faster. Everyone touches the plate or will they have a disinfection bath for the fingers? Yha ok, you touch more when you are moving around, but it is a source again.

Guess if they make those prints, they can sell their database. Fingerprint in combination with passport. In other countries they dont do, not even EU, USA, but in Thailand they do?! Is Thailand a country to gather that info and sell?!

Is this not in conflict with Geneva human rights? 

How fast the check will go, just single finger print out of billions? If they check  it also with criminal records or any other database.

All so old fashioned, why not have all people in the world have a body implanted chip, forget about human rights and privacy, then everybody is tagged.

More and more total control. 

How long before they draw blood to check DNA?

[Chazar]

On 6/2/2019 at 10:55 AM, geoffbezoz said:

Which reminds me of something donkey years ago of trying to get one of the young ladies from the tracing office to sit on top of the xerox machine that had just come out. 

Youll find doing the top half  was  much easier in those  times although it was  better in  summer for her. brrrrrrrrr

[Chazar]

On 6/3/2019 at 4:52 PM, 007 RED said:

Sorry to correct you, but you are wrong on both the statements that you have made.

 

Firstly, it has been possible for many years to increase the resolution of a low-quality photograph.  If you do a search on Google “How do I increase the resolution of a photo” all will be revealed. 

 

The photo which you provided to the authority who issued your passport will have been to a specific size, with your face (chin to crown) being between 70 to 80% of the height of the photo. 

 

The authority which issued your passport has high quality equipment and sophisticated software that enables them to digitize your original photo and then crop it and increase the resolution and size so that they can place an encrypted, high resolution picture of just your face (no shoulders or space above your head) onto the chip that is embedded into your passport.

 

Secondly, facial recognition systems rely upon comparing one image against another.  Your passport has a high-resolution photo of your face held on the encrypted chip that is embedded in your passport.  This photo becomes available to the Immigration system when the IO scans the photo page of your passport.  The IO takes a photo of you, and the facial recognition system then compares the two photos.

 

Facial recognition systems rely upon identifying several points on the face and producing a digital map.  The maps of both photos are compared to produce a figure that gives a reliability match.

 

I have attached below a sample of a facial recognition map.

 

OK so I need to grow  long hair to cover my ears, have a nose job, grow a moustache and have those hideous silicone lips and a good  chin implant...........every time i cross a  border, hmmmm could get expensive/painful

[SilverBeast]

On 7/21/2019 at 12:51 AM, Guderian said:

They must also realise that somebody blacklisted only has to get a new passport and he's free to come and go again. Once they are checking the fingerprints with every entry that option will effectively be closed down.

Facial recognition wasn't enough previously?

[SilverBeast]

On 7/28/2019 at 1:06 AM, Almer said:

Why would anybody worry  about finger prints, every time i open my phone my thumb print is in the cloud for the world to see.

a suggestion would be a photo of your more intimate piece on your passport ID page, i am told they are all different with there own idiosyncrasies, so to speak.  

Not sure if serious....

[josephbloggs]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:52 PM, SilverBeast said:

The choice is simple.  I'm never coming back.  Everyone else should do the same so that the Tourist industries crumble and then maybe the governments will finally realized the population isn't going to put up with this <deleted>.

The same as most other countries do.

 

Ok, don't put up with it if it is such an affront to you.

 

Byeeeeeeeee!!

[Doge]

On 6/2/2019 at 10:59 AM, KhunBENQ said:

But that was their first success story.

Some guy where the passport photo didn't match biometrics of the face.

 

Traditional biometrics might trigger alarm even based only on some simple geometrics (position/distance of eyes, nose, mouth, chin).

 

 

Your country might already be providing this in your biometric passport.

 

 

Im of the opinion there is a massive general database that all nations can both hook and feed into. Some nations might only release sketchy people in the population, more guarded for average Joe' and VIP. Nations can opt out but I think security apparatus would see as beneficial.

[SilverBeast]

On 9/25/2019 at 8:13 AM, josephbloggs said:

The same as most other countries do.

 

Ok, don't put up with it if it is such an affront to you.

 

Byeeeeeeeee!!

Yep, Bye!

That's the way it goes!

[Almer]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:03 PM, Chazar said:

OK so I need to grow  long hair to cover my ears, have a nose job, grow a moustache and have those hideous silicone lips and a good  chin implant...........every time i cross a  border, hmmmm could get expensive/painful

My old passport was a perfect picture, my recently renewed looks nothing like me and is stretched, it is printed on what feels like the newish  bank note paper ,???? see nothing like me

[dave s]

I got my first passport by turning in the paperwork at my local post office in USA in 2002. The Bangkok embassy used to do "outreach" sessions a couple times a year to Phuket and other Thai cities; in 2012 I applied for a new passport by turning in the forms (again including photograph) at a hotel in Patong, and got the new passport by registered mail. A couple years from now I will probably need to go to the embassy in Bangkok and be fingerprinted (and whatever else?). Question is, then what happens? How does the data get encrypted at two levels and then burned into a chip for my new passport? Would a digitized photo and fingerprints be sent to Washington, which would make an encrypted passport deep in some basement in Langley and ship it to Bangkok? If the Bangkok embassy had what's necessary to make a passport, wouldn't that be a great terrorist target: bust in, steal what Bangkok has, now all passports ever made in Bangkok, or maybe even all passports, are suspect.