Pump is Pumping too often?

[ElephantEgo]

Thank you everyone whose chimed in on this question. I have gone through all of the suggestions and can only conclude that there is a leak somewhere deep in the house structure, likely underground below the floor or under the pavement or soil around the house.

 

I think we need to do as Fruit Trader mentioned and put the pressure gauge and isolation valves around to isolate where the leak is coming from.

 

I spoke with my contractor today and he says it's possible that it might be under the master bathroom. He said maybe the ground had slighty shifted and caused a pipe leak or something like that.

 

This is stressful for us to consider because it means tearing up part/s of the floor of a newly renovated house. Hopefully not much parts, but who knows?! This is not the type of house with a crawl space under the floor, where the pipes can be found.

 

And then, even with that, hopefully we can find the leak and fix it. But I think this idea, to use the pressure gauge and shutoff valve at various points will be helpful to isolate and determine where the leak really is. I dont see any other way to solve the issue.

 

Its not a new house where each bathroom has its own isolation valve, it is two or three pipes going to two or three different areas.

 

(In the meantime I have the pump on a Wifi adaptor plug, so I can turn off the pump with my phone when we dont need hot water in order to shut the damn thing up when it is off, we still get decent pressure from the town, but the water will not come from our hot water tank).

 

Seems like a big investigation and repair job coming soon. If anyone has any other ideas or thoughts or better ideas, please share!!!

Edited September 4, 2019 by JakeR
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[tjo o tjim]

Run any replacement pipes in the ceiling; it will reduce your pain.

[ElephantEgo]

On 6/26/2019 at 3:29 PM, lagavulin1 said:

Do you have a double system. I mean a line from the meter to the tank feeding the pump AND a bipass which allows you to run directly from the mains? 

If the bipass is not fully closed the pump reacts to pressure fluctuations in the bi pass line. 

Check your tank is being supplied enough. 

My next door neighbour had this problem as did we. 

We installed a valve on the pump outlet. We use bipass except when mains is very low and shutting the exit valve neutralizes pressure variations and shuts the pump up. 

@lagavulin1 Upon closer inspection, this seems to be the issue I am facing. When I turn off the supply from the meter to the reserve tank, the pump stops cycling on and off so often.

Somewhere on that pipe from the meter to the reserve tank, there must also be a supply to the house because even when I shut off the pump output valve (and shut off that valve supplying my reserve tank) the house still has water supplied to it. Albeit not hot water from my hot water tank which requires the pump to be in use.
 

Does this make sense? Any suggestion about what I should tell the plumber to fix exactly? Maybe he needs to find and shut off the bypass?

 

By the way, my water bill was very low, only around 175 THB for a 3 bedroom house with 4 people in it. So a leak in the pipes could not explain why the pump was coming on and off every 5 minutes. I think it must be the pressure fluctuations from the mains/bypass as @lagavulin1 suggested. This must be it, right? What to do next?

[Andrew Dwyer]

[mention=169481]lagavulin1[/mention] Upon closer inspection, this seems to be the issue I am facing. When I turn off the supply from the meter to the reserve tank, the pump stops cycling on and off so often.

Somewhere on that pipe from the meter to the reserve tank, there must also be a supply to the house because even when I shut off the pump output valve (and shut off that valve supplying my reserve tank) the house still has water supplied to it. Albeit not hot water from my hot water tank which requires the pump to be in use.
 
Does this make sense? Any suggestion about what I should tell the plumber to fix exactly? Maybe he needs to find and shut off the bypass?
 
By the way, my water bill was very low, only around 175 THB for a 3 bedroom house with 4 people in it. So a leak in the pipes could not explain why the pump was coming on and off every 5 minutes. I think it must be the pressure fluctuations from the mains/bypass as@lagavulin1 suggested. This must be it, right? What to do next?

Find the bypass, I have a pump/tank and also a bypass for when the power is out or if the pump has a problem.
My bypass is normally closed but if you fit a check ( non return ) valve in the bypass it can stay open and “ assist “ in feeding water to your house.
My city water pressure is very low so it is not used ( except for the above reasons or when I remove the tank temporarily for painting the house etc ).

If you find your bypass you will have a clearer understanding of what is happening, maybe you can close it or the check valve maybe stuck open with grit ??

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, JakeR said:

By the way, my water bill was very low, only around 175 THB for a 3 bedroom house with 4 people in it. So a leak in the pipes could not explain why the pump was coming on and off every 5 minutes.

The low water bill is no indication that you don't have a leaking pipe, toilet valve or joint causing your pump to cycle.

 

You are using about 18,000 litres of water per month, going by your bill, so the amount lost that can be causing the pump to cycle can easily be 0.1% of your monthly bill.

 

So in short you would never see anything in your water bill to help diagnose a tiny leak like that.

 

Also the average conservative water usage is 100l per person per day so while your 150l per person/day isn't very high it certainly isn't low.

 

The low bill is due to the low cost of water FWIW 1/6 of the cost of the UK

Edited September 16, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[lopburi3]

Normally there will be a one way valve and they become defective so pump water returns to main supply line.  Replace that valve and you should be OK.  I prefer always having pump pressure so have a one way valve that I keep shut off (which for me is a better choice) but many are just a one way valve that will need replacing every so often.  The valve at bottom of below outline.

Edited September 16, 2019 by lopburi3

[ElephantEgo]

@lopburi3

Thanks for the diagram. We tried that today and put the check valve on the bypass.

However the problem kept on. That is why, I am now thinking that the problem is in the float valve in my underground tank, perhaps? It looks old and it never seems to fully shut off the water. Even when the tank is nearly full. It is always trickling.

 

It seems the floating ball is not able to pull it up all the way to shut it off completely

Upon thinking about it, I guess this is the problem. Right or not?

Because if that is always trickling, the pressure in the bypass (and thus the rest of the house plumbing) could be loosing pressure perhaps? So I need to change or fix the float valve???

[lopburi3]

Was not aware underground tank but that should be on direct feed from water line rather than from pump so if you blocked any linkage with that line from pumped line (Check valve on bypass) it would not have anything to do with pump running - but should be wasting water and ground wet if overflowing.  Is there a good check valve on you pump to keep water from draining back into tank - we often do not need here as water above pump but with your set up it must be pumping as from a well.

[ElephantEgo]

@Lopburi3 We have a Stiebel Eltron 400 Pump. It lacks a check valve from what I understood.

 

When I turn off the water leading to the underground reservoir, the pump shuts up. I really don't understand that.

 

Yes the reservoir has a feed from the town water, but on that line, there is also the bypass feed the house. Today we put the check valve before it split to the reservoir and house. Was that useless?

 

What should I try next, if not the float valve in the undergound tank? Add a check valve next to the pump somehow?

 

This is all terribly confusing for me... Could the float valve not fully closing, somehow be pulling water/pressure from the bypass? Thus inadvertently causing the house pressure to go down and the pump to prime too often?

[lopburi3]

8 minutes ago, JakeR said:

Yes the reservoir has a feed from the town water, but on that line, there is also the bypass feed the house. Today we put the check valve before it split to the reservoir and house. Was that useless?

That bypass feed to house is turned off so water can not flow normally?  Or is it controlled with a check valve to prevent flow back to town water if house water line at higher pressure?  Is that where you put the check valve today?

 

Suspect it is time to have someone come and check things that has experience with such systems.  Most places that sell pumps will have a list of such and probably can provide them.  I am no expert and do not want to lead you down a blind alley.  As for check valve on draw to pump do not believe pump would work if it lost water in feed line, just run and overheat with no water flow.

[ElephantEgo]

The bypass does not appear to have a switch to turn it off at all. Maybe we should add it, to solve this. A one way on/off valve that we can turn off when we don't need it. That type of valve has a technical name? Or just need 2 valves? To have all bases covered (1. on/off and 2. check valve?)

 

Yesterday workers put the check valve on the main line from the meter/town water. Not the bypass. On second thought, I think we/they should have put it on the Bypass! Right? It looks like we followed your advise incorrectly, yes?

 

Does this make sense @lopburi3?

[lopburi3]

In that case leaking at supply to tank could be an issue - the check valve should be between pumped house feed and the line that feeds storage tank.  If you normally use pump I would just use an on/off valve (you can turn on direct water if power/pump fail but normally use pump for house and don't have to worry about defective check valves).  

[Andrew Dwyer]

The bypass does not appear to have a switch to turn it off at all. Maybe we should add it, to solve this. A one way on/off valve that we can turn off when we don't need it. That type of valve has a technical name? Or just need 2 valves? To have all bases covered (1. on/off and 2. check valve?)
 
Yesterday workers put the check valve on the main line from the meter/town water. Not the bypass. On second thought, I think we/they should have put it on the Bypass! Right? It looks like we followed your advise incorrectly, yes?
 
Does this make sense [mention=326]lopburi3[/mention]?

The bypass needs a check valve ( non return ) or a ball valve, or both.
You have nothing so your pressure water ( from the pump ) could be going backwards to the city.
If your water from the city has good pressure use the check valve in bypass.
If it is poor pressure then close bypass using the ball valve and only open it when you have no power or a pump problem.

[bankruatsteve]

2 hours ago, JakeR said:

The bypass does not appear to have a switch to turn it off at all. Maybe we should add it, to solve this. A one way on/off valve that we can turn off when we don't need it. That type of valve has a technical name? Or just need 2 valves? To have all bases covered (1. on/off and 2. check valve?)

 

Yesterday workers put the check valve on the main line from the meter/town water. Not the bypass. On second thought, I think we/they should have put it on the Bypass! Right? It looks like we followed your advise incorrectly, yes?

 

Does this make sense @lopburi3?

The added NRV (check valve) is effectively the 'bypass" valve.  Did that solve your problem?

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, JakeR said:

The bypass does not appear to have a switch to turn it off at all. Maybe we should add it, to solve this. A one way on/off valve that we can turn off when we don't need it. That type of valve has a technical name? Or just need 2 valves? To have all bases covered (1. on/off and 2. check valve?)

 

Yesterday workers put the check valve on the main line from the meter/town water. Not the bypass. On second thought, I think we/they should have put it on the Bypass! Right? It looks like we followed your advise incorrectly, yes?

 

Does this make sense @lopburi3?

A check valve on the main line doesn't do any harm and it will stop pumping back into the town supply (or letting a tank drain back if you have an unusual feed into the tank.) But if you don't have a check valve or stopcock on the bypass you pump will either run nonstop or cycle frequently DAMHIKT ????  I have 3 or 4 NRVs in my system so I almost never have to use a manual stopcock. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[ElephantEgo]

That was it guys, it solved the problem. I added the check valve and stop valve on the bypass. I also replaced the very old float valve in my tank. Now there is no more leakage of any pressure, or water. The pump does not turn on and off (in a way that seemed randomly) anymore!

That pipe which feeds the house when the pump is not working or power off, was where the problem was.

 

It kept feeding the reserve tank on a small trickle due to the float valve being too old and worn out. Which effected, along with pressure fluctuations from the government water, pressure in the entire system.

 

I am very glad it is now fixed!!