3 hours ago, kingdong said:

remember the fiasco of the erm and how france and germany sneered at us when we were forced to leave,same thing happened when cameron went to the eu 3and a half years ago to beg them could we change our laws so eu dossers [not sure of correct terminology,but someone coming to uk with the intention of poncing off the welfare state as opposed to seeking employment] could be denied state benefit,they laughed in his face and gave him nothing.

1) What is the UK employment rate now ? So clearly your (and the 'they come over here and steal all our jobs brigade) fears have never stood up to scrutiny. 

 

2) If you don't show extensive proof you are actually looking for work in the UK now you are denied state benefits (and have been for some years)

 

Could you reiterate what your point was please ?

18 minutes ago, smedly said:

the difference being - we will own it and not some unelected power grabbing ass wipe in Brussels, the whole thing is a farce and we need to get out of it ASAP

Still waiting on specifics to back that up, but you provide just endless meaningless soundbites even after being called out for doing it. 

 

……..what will you actually own ? by 'we' I assume you mean the UK population right ? so in what form will that ownership of whatever it is we 'own' take ? I'm intrigued now. will we have shares in this thing we own ? Can we sell it etc etc 

 

What are you talking about ?

 

 

30 minutes ago, Handsome Gardener said:

all of them right ? Every survey being produced now (and you know you tried to find another leave survey bias) is incorrect, bias, not to be taken serious, blah blah blah correct ? The 1200 people would not have been selected at random but I see someone else has tried to get that through to you so I'll leave that.

 

Everything that doesn't tie in with your views is either bias, wrong, or a giant conspiracy.

 

If those surveys indicated another leave vote you would be all over it like a rash correct ?

 

However I do my own research - apart from the brexiteers who think Asians will have to leave after October 31st (can't help those ones) - many I speak to have now said they regret the whole thing and would vote differently. That's why brexiteers want this over the line so badly, the tide has turned significantly and the mind boggling stupidity is a very real threat. 

Really. You sound very much like an old poster from Yorkshire, who was named after a bird and poor Scottish whisky.

 

I never said this "Everything that doesn't tie in with your views is either bias, wrong, or a giant conspiracy."  You are making it up.

 

I did say that the sample surveys are small and have little significance. Even grammar schools children learn that.

 

As I mentioned the surveys were saying before the referendum that remain would win. Looked what happened there.

3 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really. You sound very much like an old poster from Yorkshire, who was named after a bird and poor Scottish whisky.

 

I never said this "Everything that doesn't tie in with your views is either bias, wrong, or a giant conspiracy."  You are making it up.

 

I did say that the sample surveys are small and have little significance. Even grammar schools children learn that.

 

As I mentioned the surveys were saying before the referendum that remain would win. Looked what happened there.

Actually the polling was very close and within the margin of error.

As for this//

"I did say that the sample surveys are small and have little significance. Even grammar schools children learn that."

I hope they're not teaching grammar schools children that. Because if they are, they're going to have to unlearn it if they ever study something called statistics. You know, the branch of maths upon which modern science and commerce depend.
 

16 minutes ago, Handsome Gardener said:

Still waiting on specifics to back that up

keep waiting - 
 

since you are going on about it lets hear your forecast and reasoning to remain

 

you think when we leave we will suddenly stop trading with the EU especially Germany and France 

 

Once the UK has left we will no longer be subject to restrictive EU rules, we will be free, I don't care if we take an economic hit for a short period while we adjust to our new economic freedom - absolutely worth it

24 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Actually the polling was very close and within the margin of error.

As for this//

"I did say that the sample surveys are small and have little significance. Even grammar schools children learn that."

I hope they're not teaching grammar schools children that. Because if they are, they're going to have to unlearn it if they ever study something called statistics. You know, the branch of maths upon which modern science and commerce depend.
 

Regardless going on and on about surveys. Let me tell you straight. There was a referendum in 2016. People has the choice to vote. All those wonderful surveys you tall about pointed to remain. The result was leave. Get over it and move on.

 

As for the rest. Are you his mum. Let the man speak for himself.

34 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really. You sound very much like an old poster from Yorkshire, who was named after a bird and poor Scottish whisky.

 

I never said this "Everything that doesn't tie in with your views is either bias, wrong, or a giant conspiracy."  You are making it up.

 

I did say that the sample surveys are small and have little significance. Even grammar schools children learn that.

 

As I mentioned the surveys were saying before the referendum that remain would win. Looked what happened there.

I don't think that's Grouse. I've been a bit concerned about his absence. Hope he is OK.

It was mentioned in a (either Guardian or BBC) article that this would require the existing PM to step down after losing a no-confidence vote which legally he wouldn’t be obliged to. 
 
BBC it is: “However, Catherine Haddon, from the Institute for Government think tank, said that while [forming a government of national unity] was possible, it would rely on Mr Johnson resigning as PM after losing a no-confidence vote - something he is not legally bound to do.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49225906

They would be on very tricky constitutional ground to pull that one. The core element of the U.K. constitutional system is the sovereignty of parliament and that the government serves with its confidence. For the PM/govt not to resign would be the same as to prorogue parliament and the Queen to take back power under her appointed PM.

The 14 day rule for parliament to put forward a new govt/pm is a new one in the Fixed Term Parliament Act from 2011 and has not been attempted before. Prior to that an election could have been called immediately. The last time that happened was 1979 when Mrs T came to power so using historical references is a bit dubious.


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1 hour ago, smedly said:

keep waiting - 
 

since you are going on about it lets hear your forecast and reasoning to remain

 

you think when we leave we will suddenly stop trading with the EU especially Germany and France 

 

Once the UK has left we will no longer be subject to restrictive EU rules, we will be free, I don't care if we take an economic hit for a short period while we adjust to our new economic freedom - absolutely worth it

"... while we adjust to our new economic freedom...."

 

New economic freedom. Is that an euphemism for poverty?

 

 

4 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

no, I understood it alright - just seems a little melodramatic and silly..

You misunderstood alright, and now trying to wriggle out of it with personal attacks.

1 hour ago, Orac said:

They would be on very tricky constitutional ground to pull that one. The core element of the U.K. constitutional system is the sovereignty of parliament and that the government serves with its confidence. For the PM/govt not to resign would be the same as to prorogue parliament and the Queen to take back power under her appointed PM.

But when have Brexiteers ever cared about the UK’s parliamentary representative democracy? 

 

But when have Brexiteers ever cared about the UK’s parliamentary representative democracy? 
 

If (and it is a very big if) a new govt/pm becomes apparent in the 14 day period that had the backing of the majority of MPs which could be done through a parliamentary motion or an open letter signed by MPs then, should the current PM refuse to resign, it would force the Queen to make a political decision which would be a massive escalation.


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3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Come on Sandy even many remainers would admit that the UK hasn't never felt part of the EU. The fact of remaining with the GBP, the constant questioning on the EU's stance on further integration and federalisation. Immigration and the reluctance to join all EU laws.  That is not a narrow view but a real one. The referendum result in 2016 blows your theory away as the majority voted to leave.

 

Te History books in my opinion as that's all it can be like yours an opinion will show the the UK stood up and demanded independence from a bullying organisation and have done well for themselves.

 

How ironic you call yourself a Scottish EU citizen and then call British a political identity. Hypocrisy, as I can see the movie Braveheart been shown as an identity..

"The referendum result in 2016 blows your theory away as the majority voted to leave." again you making assumptions, that the referendum result was not influenced by 8 years of austerity. You also refuse to accept that there may no longer be a majority in favour of leaving. The surveyors report shows the foundations are collapsing but you ignore the advice and buy the house anyway.

 

As I said, the concept of identity seems to be a problem for many. My identity document says British Citizen, I did not put that there, I was born in Scotland so a citizen of Scotland but you will probably dispute that. A friend of mine, born and bred in Belfast has Irish Citizen in his identity document, he has chosen to be a citizen of Ireland.

Great Britain is not a country, it is a political entity, as is the EU and USA, countries are England, Scotland, Wales and a divided Ireland. Leaving the EU has been a nationalist ambition for years but certainly not Scottish or Irish.

bojo can do the exit when he likes Oct31 is flexible and can be moved where he likes ..he can call an election when he likes if hes forced to but labour rebels will keep him going in power .many labour MPs want the exit .better than kicking the can down the road and causing paralysis to uk and pound for more years

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The result was leave. Get over it and move on.

Brxiteer mantra, people just do not get the chance to change their minds, unless of course you are a politician speaking to the media.

 

Matt Hancock has also claimed a no-deal Brexit cannot be blocked by MPs in parliament before 31 October. He said he had changed his mind on the matter during the Tory leadership contest. “When facts change people can change their minds,” he said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-live-general-election-labour-corbyn-nhs-tories-swinson-latest-today-a9039351.html

21 hours ago, smedly said:

if that happens it will trigger a GE where the PM will set the date

 

Stephen no idea were you from - if UK I honestly can't figure out why anyone wants to remain in the EU, I have no issues trading and keeping close relations but that is it, I want no part of a federal EU run primarily by Germany - they can shove it

 

Smedly, it's not about leaving or remaining in the EU, it's not about EU Federal-run ideology, It's about what's best for Britain, the critical scenario that's mostly being ignored by all. While a Brexit deal is not my chosen route, a no-deal is the worst solution of the lot, and would bring about chaos to the UK in practically every which way one looks, from day one. 

 

We're not talking about a short-term blip here, we're talking (possibly) decades of Tory government's self-inflicted grief.  And it's my family (along with every other household) living in England who would be paying for it. That's not a Britain I want to be part of - Johnson and his right-wingers can shove it. 

 

The sooner a GE and the dismantling of the Tory party, the better for Britain, IMO. At the very least some political sanity would be achieved, even if Corbyn comes to power.

All going to plan - well someone's plan.

 

Diplomats from the other EU member states have been told the UK will leave without a deal unless major changes are made to Theresa May's deal, but that these changes - such as abolishing the Irish backstop - were unacceptable.

One negotiator said: "We are back where we were three years ago."

Downing Street said it hoped the EU would rethink its refusal of changes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49240809

“The bigger question is why is Dominic Cummings, the de facto deputy prime minister, so keen to spend yet more taxpayers’ money on something that his boss insists has only a ‘one in a million chance’ of happening?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-dominic-cummings-philip-hammond-boris-johnson-a9040546.html

 

An even bigger question is why an unelected bureaucrat is referred to as deputy PM and dictating government policy.

David Cameron, who says no wrong according to brexiteers, has criticised Cummings as a "career psychopath".

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

 

Smedly, it's not about leaving or remaining in the EU, it's not about EU Federal-run ideology, It's about what's best for Britain, the critical scenario that's mostly being ignored by all. While a Brexit deal is not my chosen route, a no-deal is the worst solution of the lot, and would bring about chaos to the UK in practically every which way one looks, from day one. 

 

We're not talking about a short-term blip here, we're talking (possibly) decades of Tory government's self-inflicted grief.  And it's my family (along with every other household) living in England who would be paying for it. That's not a Britain I want to be part of - Johnson and his right-wingers can shove it. 

 

The sooner a GE and the dismantling of the Tory party, the better for Britain, IMO. At the very least some political sanity would be achieved, even if Corbyn comes to power.

that is your opinion - I do not agree, we (the UK) have been held back for years through EU membershit, we have been strangled by rules that were not in our interests, yes we have been idling along but never able to unleash our full potential - something I believe was intentional by EU masters

22 minutes ago, smedly said:

that is your opinion - I do not agree, we (the UK) have been held back for years through EU membershit, we have been strangled by rules that were not in our interests, yes we have been idling along but never able to unleash our full potential - something I believe was intentional by EU masters

And you think by crashing out of the EU, and without a phased transitional period, is the best solution?  I seriously consider that to be utter madness.

 

As for addressing your negative points, which are debatable whether they hold water on analysis, for the UK to achieve 'a full potential' e.g. on economic growth through advantageous trade deals outside the EU's reins, it would take years to accomplish - and even if that would be the ultimate outcome - which I do support - it would be better achieved by not crashing out in the first place.

 

Because, for one example, the US trade spokeswoman said that the USA would not undertake a deal with the UK if a no-deal scenario occurs. As you are well aware, there is a vibrant Irish lobby in the States who would aim to protect Ireland from a breakdown of the Good Friday agreement.  

          

1. Corbyn calls for a vote of no confidence as soon as parliament returns.

2. Boris has 14 days to try to form another government.  He fails.

3. The Queen is required to ask someone else if they can form a government.

4. The opposition parties agree on a "neutral" Prime Minister who can form a national unity government, with the sole intention of extending Article 50 and holding a Brexit General Election or Referendum.  Some have suggested Margaret Beckett for this role.

5. Article 50 is put on hold and a General Election or referendum is held.

6. A no deal Brexit goes ahead, or we Remain.

7. Job done.

21 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

1. Corbyn calls for a vote of no confidence as soon as parliament returns.

2. Boris has 14 days to try to form another government.  He fails.

3. The Queen is required to ask someone else if they can form a government.

4. The opposition parties agree on a "neutral" Prime Minister who can form a national unity government, with the sole intention of extending Article 50 and holding a Brexit General Election or Referendum.  Some have suggested Margaret Beckett for this role.

5. Article 50 is put on hold and a General Election or referendum is held.

6. A no deal Brexit goes ahead, or we Remain.

7. Job done.

Now that's what I call sense.

49 minutes ago, smedly said:

that is your opinion - I do not agree, we (the UK) have been held back for years through EU membershit, we have been strangled by rules that were not in our interests, yes we have been idling along but never able to unleash our full potential - something I believe was intentional by EU masters

"we have been strangled by rules that were not in our interests,"

The most ridiculous comment that has appeared on here for a long time. The EU directives pushed the UK government into changes that if left to their own devices would still be under review. Only a warped mind would think that Consumer Protection, Health & Safety and many more were not in peoples interests.

 

"UK potential" will be highlighted shortly with a round the world flight by a Spitfire. Of course it was an EU decision that the UK no longer develop and manufacture aircraft.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, successive UK governments removed all potential the UK ever had. It's always too late when trying to catch up.

A warning to the Tories in several UK newspapers yesterday:

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

"we have been strangled by rules that were not in our interests,"

The most ridiculous comment that has appeared on here for a long time. The EU directives pushed the UK government into changes that if left to their own devices would still be under review. Only a warped mind would think that Consumer Protection, Health & Safety and many more were not in peoples interests.

 

"UK potential" will be highlighted shortly with a round the world flight by a Spitfire. Of course it was an EU decision that the UK no longer develop and manufacture aircraft.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, successive UK governments removed all potential the UK ever had. It's always too late when trying to catch up.

Your warped post makes out like HSE is the proprietary domain of the EU, when it was the UK that was way ahead on this. 

3 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

1. Corbyn calls for a vote of no confidence as soon as parliament returns.

2. Boris has 14 days to try to form another government.  He fails.

3. The Queen is required to ask someone else if they can form a government.

4. The opposition parties agree on a "neutral" Prime Minister who can form a national unity government, with the sole intention of extending Article 50 and holding a Brexit General Election or Referendum.  Some have suggested Margaret Beckett for this role.

5. Article 50 is put on hold and a General Election or referendum is held.

6. A no deal Brexit goes ahead, or we Remain.

7. Job done.

8. I woke up and realised I was dreaming.

 

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your warped post makes out like HSE is the proprietary domain of the EU, when it was the UK that was way on this. 

Good distraction, change the context, I never mentioned HSE.

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

"The referendum result in 2016 blows your theory away as the majority voted to leave." again you making assumptions, that the referendum result was not influenced by 8 years of austerity. You also refuse to accept that there may no longer be a majority in favour of leaving. The surveyors report shows the foundations are collapsing but you ignore the advice and buy the house anyway.

 

As I said, the concept of identity seems to be a problem for many. My identity document says British Citizen, I did not put that there, I was born in Scotland so a citizen of Scotland but you will probably dispute that. A friend of mine, born and bred in Belfast has Irish Citizen in his identity document, he has chosen to be a citizen of Ireland.

Great Britain is not a country, it is a political entity, as is the EU and USA, countries are England, Scotland, Wales and a divided Ireland. Leaving the EU has been a nationalist ambition for years but certainly not Scottish or Irish.

 

Like it or not the UK is a presently sovereign nation comprised of the union of four countries, with bonny Scotland being one of them. The EU is a political and economic union, it is not a sovereign nation, so therefore should not be compared to the UK or the US. 

23 hours ago, smedly said:

keep waiting - 
 

since you are going on about it lets hear your forecast and reasoning to remain

 

you think when we leave we will suddenly stop trading with the EU especially Germany and France 

 

Once the UK has left we will no longer be subject to restrictive EU rules, we will be free, I don't care if we take an economic hit for a short period while we adjust to our new economic freedom - absolutely worth it

The state of the pound gives you the case for remain (as I said before if the case for Brexit was a good one the pound would be soaring - why isn't it ?) - near full employment and the 5th largest economy in the world gives you the case for remain, a member of the richest trading block in the world is the case for remain, every single industry chief gives you the case for remain - need any more ? First class medical research from shared European countries databases is the case for remain

 

by free do you mean tariffs ? Or perhaps all the trade deals you haven't got yet but are going to lose ? That sort of free you mean ? Trade deals that take YEARS to put together ? The manufacturers sick to death of goods waiting in containers moving their operations and jobs to countries where they won't have to ? That free ? Would the 1-2 million brits working in Europe be free ? 

 

Oh by the way you know that the UK will still be bound by the European Court of Human Rights right ? So the foreign criminals that have you frothing over your cereal will still be protected IN the UK by European courts (hands up brexiteers who knew that)

 

We would continue trading with Germany and France once the goods that flow freely now, are authorised, certificated and past customs post Brexit - costs money and for perishable goods (and medicines) that's a problem. The UK would also be unable to compete well with the much stronger EU for trade deals who will be tripping over themselves to offer preferential deals to countries that they know the UK can't afford! (UK GDP 2.9t - EU GDP 17.2t)

 

I've read a lot on here and there is not one single pro Brexit contributor who has provided anything of substance whatsoever outside 'it will be ok' amongst a whole library of meaningless soundbites. 

 

So which restrictive EU rules specifically are troubling you ? 

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Good distraction, change the context, I never mentioned HSE.

No distraction. The "HS" within HSE stands for Health and Safety. Doh.