Absolute latest from Immigration on Insurance...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

I believe that current information leads to the conclusion immigration offices are looking for OA visa extensions. 

 

I have no idea what's going to happen with the past O-A visa, current extensions of stay folks when they go to do their next annual extension (or next entry into the country) from Oct. 31 onward in terms of the insurance requirement.

 

But from the various reports posted here recounting the info given by various Immigration Offices, they seem to be looking back to whatever was the person's most recent VISA and whether it was an O-A, and not on what kind of extensions they may have had in the wake of that visa....

 

[Carolina Reaper]

FYI, I was at Immigration in Korat last week. I must apologize to you all in advance for not asking about all of the nuances with 31 October timing, when/how compliance would be checked, etc. The visa authorizing my most recent entry and serving as the basis for my recent extensions of stay was not an O-A (but I assure you I wasn't trying to be selfish).

 

I specifically asked the top brass (mostly decent English skills) at that office a couple of basic questions about the health insurance requirement. I asked, "What about the health insurance requirement?" She said "O-A visa only." I then asked, "What about extensions like my retirement extension of stay?" She replied, "No extensions, only O-A visa. But maybe change for next time. We looking at that." 

 

So, despite the fact that I will likely be accused of scaremongering here, and while I would certainly agree that there's enough stuff to worry about already without obsessing over what might come later, I can justifiably state that it would be quite foolish to be unprepared for the genuine possibility that in the foreseeable future health insurance will be required for all long stay visas and all marriage and retirement extensions of stay.

 

Don't think for a moment that I perversely like that possibility. I am an older fart with great international-except-USA-but-no-outpatient health insurance who would refuse to give that up in favor of a wimpy Thai plan that happens to include enough outpatient coverage to (maybe) cover stitching a deep cut on one finger at Bangkok Hospital (but yet would exclude my ongoing hypertension medications). Also, no international health insurance company will provide the necessary insurance coverage certification to satisfy Thai authorities. And I stand by my assertion that there is no such thing as a standalone outpatient plan let alone a reasonably priced one.

[KeeTua]

4 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

For example I enter los on a non o based on marriage valid for 90 days then I apply for 12 month permission of stay based on marriage. The following year I apply for permission of stay based on retirement. Followed the next year as being parent of Thai child. Which visa am I extending. I do not have a valid visa. 

I think you're extending your permission to stay based on your original non O. You've just been changing the reasons to extend your permission to stay using different criteria.

 

When I went to open a new bank account last year they checked my O-A visa from a few years ago and checked my stamps for the admitted until date. Never once looked at my recent extension of permission to stay.

 

My O-A visa has enter by date but never been stamped as used. It is obviously still accepted as a valid visa, by Bangkok Bank at least.

 

My previous passports have many Non-O visas based on being a parent of Thai children but I don't have those passports handy to see if older Non-O visa get stamped as used, therefore invalid. I'm curious if anyone has an example of more that one O-A visa in a passport and if the earlier one is marked as used or canceled.

[KeeTua]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not really. It is whoever did the translation from Thai to English.

In Thai. 

Google translate to English.

Fair enough but TM. 7 requests type of visa entered on. In Thai and English.

ปพะเภทของ
วีซ่า
Type of
visa

The extension of permission to stay is clearly based on the underlying visa.

 

When doing a TM. 30 the field for type of visa does not include one for 'Extension of permission to stay' we must in fact select a visa type from the list.

 

I am certainly curious how Immigration views the long ago used Non O-A visas, is it really expired/invalid?

Edited October 24, 2019 by KeeTua
add tm.30

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, KeeTua said:

Fair enough but TM. 7 requests type of visa entered on. In Thai and English.

ปพะเภทของ
วีซ่า
Type of
visa

The extension of permission to stay is clearly based on the underlying visa.

I am certainly curious how Immigration views the long ago used Non O-A visas, is it really expired/invalid?

You could put non immigrant or non im in that space and meet the requirements for the form completion. It is just to indicate that you have the correct visa for the extension you are applying for. It would be tourist or TR if applying for an extension of a entry from one.

 

 

[The Man Who Sold the World]

Mandatory Insurance: I, along with many other thaivisa users, have reviewed the “allowed” insurance companies and their age criteria on the TGIA website. 

 

I am of the opinion that IF the "powers that be" did in fact apply a broad brush stroke requiring mandatory insurance as is defined on TGIA for “extensions”, without a provision for “self-insurance” then I, along with a great many other Non-imm visa holding “visitors” will be unable to comply with the requirement and I, along with a great many others will be “forced” to repatriate back to our home countries as I/we will no longer be able to comply with Thailand’s Immigration regulations. Call us the "UNINSURABLE" collateral damage.

 

I can’t Fix it, I will comply and remain “legal”, at a great expense and significant trouble I will be reapplying for my wife's I-551, packing up our belongings and repatriating back to my “home” country where we will be welcome.

 

And, the USD $40k or so of our nest egg we spend here in Thailand annually will turn into about USD $50k or so to be  spend in America. 

 

So Be It. Good Luck to All.      

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, KeeTua said:

From Immigration Bureau website 'Visa Extension':

Home > Service  > Visa Extension > Visa Extension - In the case of retirement

 

Some web pages of the Immigration Bureau say visa  when they mean permission to stay and this is probably part of the reason why some immigration officials and some journalists and other people misunderstand the true meaning of the English version of the Police Order and the Immigration Bureau Order about the announced insurance requirement for foreigners who arrive in Thailand with an non-immigrant visa category O/A.

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Maestro
Corrected links

[Carolina Reaper]

59 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Some web pages of the Immigration Bureau say visa  when they mean permission to stay and this is probably part of the reason why some immigration officials and some journalists and other people misunderstand the true meaning of the English version of the Police Order and the Immigration Bureau Order about the announced insurance requirement for foreigners who arrive in Thailand with an non-immigrant visa category O/A.

 

Historically, many folks here on TV have had endless difficulty comprehending what a visa really is (use Websters, not Oxford) and the fact that a visa can never be renewed, extended, or modified ... and that an expired visa is just that -- expired.

 

But perhaps even more perplexing is that, indeed, Thai Immigration themselves have become quite confused on the proper terminology (at least in English, but I suspect in Thai as well). 

 

Luckily, in practice, as evidenced by the manner in which things are actually performed/enforced by TI (in terms of allowing entry, granting a stay, validity dates, verbiage in stamps in passport, etc.), the "proper" terminology ends up coming into play. 

[Jingthing]

Historically, many folks here on TV have had endless difficulty comprehending what a visa really is (use Websters, not Oxford) and the fact that a visa can never be renewed, extended, or modified ... and that an expired visa is just that -- expired.
 
But perhaps even more perplexing is that, indeed, Thai Immigration themselves have become quite confused on the proper terminology (at least in English, but I suspect in Thai as well). 
 
Luckily, in practice, as evidenced by the manner in which things are actually performed/enforced by TI (in terms of allowing entry, granting a stay, validity dates, verbiage in stamps in passport, etc.), the "proper" terminology ends up coming into play. 

But you're quite wrong.
Visas can most definitely be extended.

Another example - -

How to Extend Your U.S. Visa While in the U.S.

Co-authored by Clinton M. Sandvick, JD, PhD

Updated: September 6, 2019

Extend your stay in the United States by filing a visa extension request with the U. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) using Form I-539. 



https://m.wikihow.com/Extend-Your-U.S.-Visa-While-in-the-U.S.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Carolina Reaper]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But you're quite wrong.
Visas can most definitely be extended.

Another example - -

How to Extend Your U.S. Visa While in the U.S.

Co-authored by Clinton M. Sandvick, JD, PhD

Updated: September 6, 2019

Extend your stay in the United States by filing a visa extension request with the U. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) using Form I-539. 



https://m.wikihow.com/Extend-Your-U.S.-Visa-While-in-the-U.S.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Wrong? You have so beautifully illustrated my point...

 

"Extend your stay in the United States by filing a visa extension request"  555

 

I-539 is a change/extension of Non-Immigrant Status.

 

"Extend your Visa..." verbiage from wikihow. C'mon dude.

[singking]

Whilst i agree with what you are saying, that there is an anti foreigner vibe coming from the top, down at the bottom of the pyramid, money is money, at the end of the day.
 
It seems that they forget about TM30, financials, and likely insurances, for a price.
 
For people that really want to stay in Thailand, and are willing to put up with it, it may come as a viable option. Perhaps better than "i need to move back home, I have no other options".

One only has to read TV on a reasonably sporadic basis to be enlightened enough to know what type of farang they want to exclude.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nrasmussen]

I think you're extending your permission to stay based on your original non O. You've just been changing the reasons to extend your permission to stay using different criteria.
 
When I went to open a new bank account last year they checked my O-A visa from a few years ago and checked my stamps for the admitted until date. Never once looked at my recent extension of permission to stay.
 
My O-A visa has enter by date but never been stamped as used. It is obviously still accepted as a valid visa, by Bangkok Bank at least.
 
My previous passports have many Non-O visas based on being a parent of Thai children but I don't have those passports handy to see if older Non-O visa get stamped as used, therefore invalid. I'm curious if anyone has an example of more that one O-A visa in a passport and if the earlier one is marked as used or canceled.

Single-entry visas get stamped USED when the single entry they allow for is done. Multi-entry visas just expire on their valid until date.

[Maestro]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Visas can most definitely be extended...

 

It does not matter how often and by what people and by how many people visa is used to mean permission to stay, the only thing that matters from the legal point of view is how these terms are defined in law and in regulatory documents issued under the authority of laws.

[DrJack54]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

But you're quite wrong.
Visas can most definitely be extended.

Another example - -

How to Extend Your U.S. Visa While in the U.S.

Co-authored by Clinton M. Sandvick, JD, PhD

Updated: September 6, 2019

Extend your stay in the United States by filing a visa extension request with the U. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) using Form I-539. 



https://m.wikihow.com/Extend-Your-U.S.-Visa-While-in-the-U.S.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes everyone refers to extension of visa. Pay 1900 baht at imm "to extend visa". Wrong!. You are extending your permission of stay. In some cases ie visa exempt entries you don't even have a visa. Your extending " until date".

It ain't rocket science.

[Jingthing]

Yes everyone refers to extension of visa. Pay 1900 baht at imm "to extend visa". Wrong!. You are extending your permission of stay. In some cases ie visa exempt entries you don't even have a visa. Your extending " until date". It ain't rocket science.

 

I don't. I say extension of stay based on retirement but a lot of people at the immigration offices give a deer in the headlights look when they hear that. 

I have never ever said a visa is the same thing as an extension.

 

However in the case of retirement status there must have been an original visa O or OA upon which ALL subsequent extensions are based upon.

 

So sorry to say you are extending your visa isn't really wrong. It communicates what you are doing quite well in a way that most everyone understands.

 

However it is important to emphasize that a visa and an extension are different things.

 

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Carolina Reaper said:

Wrong? You have so beautifully illustrated my point...

 

"Extend your stay in the United States by filing a visa extension request"  555

 

I-539 is a change/extension of Non-Immigrant Status.

 

"Extend your Visa..." verbiage from wikihow. C'mon dude.

I don't think you've proven me wrong at all. In the case of extensions relevant to the Thai example and I'm sure countless other countries the extension of current status is based on the original VISA. So to say visa extension again is not wrong as it communicates that situation very well. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Jingthing

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Will they look at it that a marriage extensions doesnt need insurance, or that the initial OA visa generated the initial permission of stay, hence does ?? 

There have not been any changes to the requirement for an extension based on marriage. Much discussion has been initiated because a recent police order, specific to retirement extensions, does make mention of insurance requirements in relation to people who have been granted an O-A Visa. Although how to interpret that is the reason for these discussions.... 

[domdom]

Good morning

 

As announced I went today to Jomtien immigration to check again what has been told to me tuesday by the male immigration officer at the entrance of immigration office

This time I went to counter 8 and checked with the lady with glasses who sits outside the counter and checks the papers when we apply for extension..

She asked me why I came back as I made my extension on september 4th.. So I told her I heard there would be a mandatory health insurance and she immediately answered ' not for you, only for new OA visas after 31st October..

I again asked her "so, when I do my extension next year no need of a health insurance

No, no need for extension, only for new visas..

 

Things are pretty clear in Jomtien apparently

Have a nice day

[Mango Bob]

17 minutes ago, domdom said:

Good morning

 

As announced I went today to Jomtien immigration to check again what has been told to me tuesday by the male immigration officer at the entrance of immigration office

This time I went to counter 8 and checked with the lady with glasses who sits outside the counter and checks the papers when we apply for extension..

She asked me why I came back as I made my extension on september 4th.. So I told her I heard there would be a mandatory health insurance and she immediately answered ' not for you, only for new OA visas after 31st October..

I again asked her "so, when I do my extension next year no need of a health insurance

No, no need for extension, only for new visas..

 

Things are pretty clear in Jomtien apparently

Have a nice day

Are you on an Non O/A or O?

[domdom]

<removed>

 

To Mango Bob,

I had at beginning an OA visa issued by Paris consulate in october 2014.. I entered Thailand in march 2015 and went to Cambodia one day before the one year period and reentered again the same day, so all together I used my OA visa for nearly 2 years.. Then I made extensions in Jomtien, the last one being done on september 4th 2019, (with 800 K bahts in the bank) which has been granted and is valid till October 3rd 2020 ( I have done my extension one month in advance). I also the day of my extension, received a sheet of paper asking me to come beginning of december with my bank book to prove that I still have in bank the 800.000 bahts

Have a nice day

Edited October 25, 2019 by ubonjoe
Removed a comment about a removed post.

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

There have not been any changes to the requirement for an extension based on marriage. Much discussion has been initiated because a recent police order, specific to retirement extensions, does make mention of insurance requirements in relation to people who have been granted an O-A Visa. Although how to interpret that is the reason for these discussions.... 

Surely you understood my point tho. 

 

The guy who came in on an OA and is extending for retirement (according to some offices I should point out) does need it. 

 

The guy who came in on an OA, and extended on marriage ?? Assume he doesnt but thats not the enforcement above. 

 

The guy who came in on an OA extended on marriage but now extends on retirement again, logically he is the same as the first guy, but did the extension due to marriage 'convert' his extension of stay to a non imm O ?? 

 

Of course these are subtle detail questions that are likely to have different answers all over the place, mostly its just a way of pointing out how crazy it is to now start to consider future extensions of stay, from historical entry visa that generated them. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FYI, I wrote emails to both the Wash DC Embassy and L.A. Consulate in the U.S. asking re the new insurance requirement. Wash DC has replied after several days, L.A. has not. I was specifically trying to see what detail they'd provide about the use of home country insurance policies.

 

Here's the Wash DC Embassy's response. And again, interestingly, no mention of the "first year" only notion for foreign policies as stated on the TGIA website:
 

Quote

 

Thank you for contacting us. That is correct. the new policy starting on Oct 31, 2019.
We are working on our website about additional requirements.

...

Everything else will be the same as our website except the required documents number 8 which you can find below:
...

Required Documents: (Required 2 sets; 1 original and 1 copy)

...

8. U.S. or Thai health insurance plan. Coverage requirements for outpatient treatment of no less than 40,000 baths and inpatient treatment of no less than 400,000 baths.

 

-  in case of submitting U.S. health insurance :

1. original “Foreign Insurance Certificate” which certified by insurance company (Download)

2. original health insurance policy (we do not accept copies)

 

- in case of submitting Thai health insurance :

1. the applicant must purchase health insurance plan online via Thai General Insurance Association’s website    http://longstay.tgia.org/

2. Submit an insurance evidence issued by insurance companies

 

 

Of course, re the use of home country insurance policies, the elephant in the room remains the apparent inability of policyholders to get their home country insurers to sign off on the Thai MoPH legalistic insurance certif.

 

And for those planning to rely on Thai insurers, the fact that most of those participating either won't write policies for older folks and/or won't renew policies for older folks. And even for those few that will write such policies, the costs as people get into their 70s, 80s, and beyond are prohibitively expensive -- with no current option to self-fund or self insure.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Martyp]

27 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

FYI, I wrote emails to both the Wash DC Embassy and L.A. Consulate in the U.S. asking re the new insurance requirement. Wash DC has replied after several days, L.A. has not. I was specifically trying to see what detail they'd provide about the use of home country insurance policies.

 

Here's the Wash DC Embassy's response. And again, interestingly, no mention of the "first year" only notion for foreign policies as stated on the TGIA website:
 

 

Of course, re the use of home country insurance policies, the elephant in the room remains the apparent inability of policyholders to get their home country insurers to sign off on the Thai MoPH legalistic insurance certif.

 

And for those planning to rely on Thai insurers, the fact that most of those participating either won't write policies for older folks and/or won't renew policies for older folks. And even for those few that will write such policies, the costs as people get into their 70s, 80s, and beyond are prohibitively expensive -- with no current option to self-fund or self insure.

 

It has been said many times that US insurance companies won’t sign the Thai insurance certificate. The certificate is pretty simple just requesting whether the insurance company policies are consistent with the Thai insurance requirement. Maybe someone should try to get a letter from the US insurer stating the inpatient and outpatient coverage and whether they cover an expat living in Thailand. Then let the Thai consult decide if the coverage meets the Thai regulation. 
 

The US insurer can’t be expected to interpret the Thai regulation and the Thai Consulate can’t be expected to interpret a complex US insurance policy.  Surely a US company would be willing to sign their own summary of the important points of their own policy. There is plenty we don’t know about how this policy will be implemented in the coming weeks. This could be something worth a try.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, Martyp said:

Maybe someone should try to get a letter from the US insurer stating the inpatient and outpatient coverage and whether they cover an expat living in Thailand. Then let the Thai consult decide if the coverage meets the Thai regulation. 

 

Anything's worth a try...

 

But, the written info received thus far from the Wash DC Embassy and the Chicago Consulate is that they're going to require the specific Thai government insurance certificate signed by the foreign insurer, if the O-A applicant wants to rely on a foreign insurance policy. There doesn't appear to be any wiggle room about that.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Martyp]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Anything's worth a try...

 

But, the written info received thus far from the Wash DC Embassy and the Chicago Consulate is that they're going to require the specific Thai government insurance certificate signed by the foreign insurer, if the O-A applicant wants to rely on a foreign insurance policy. There doesn't appear to be any wiggle room about that.

 

I saw that but they just cut and pasted the info from the Thai government. I would expect that. 

[Mango Bob]

42 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Anything's worth a try...

 

But, the written info received thus far from the Wash DC Embassy and the Chicago Consulate is that they're going to require the specific Thai government insurance certificate signed by the foreign insurer, if the O-A applicant wants to rely on a foreign insurance policy. There doesn't appear to be any wiggle room about that.

 

Why do they not list cost for those over 65?  

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

Why do they not list cost for those over 65?  

If you are talking about the Thai insurance site, I know Pacific Cross does....maybe some of the other also.  I really haven't looked that close....but Pacific Cross list prices up to 75 years old.

https://www.pacificcrosshealth.com/en/health-insurance/longstay-visa/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

Why do they not list cost for those over 65?  

 

Because they're the Thai govt., not private insurance companies?

 

And in many cases, re the Thai insurance companies, they won't write new policies for people beyond age 65, so no premium amounts to quote.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Mango Bob]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Because they're the Thai govt., not private insurance companies?

 

And in many cases, re the Thai insurance companies, they won't write new policies for people beyond age 65, so no premium amounts to quote.

 

I was looking at the Standard plans not the Platinum plans.  Can we get the Platinum plans or the Standard Extra plan?

[Mango Bob]

I am trying to figure out how this insurance works just in case those with old O/a who are now on extension of stay have to have the insurance.  I have Tricare for Life and don't need none of these policies.  But as things stand we will need a Thai policy that I would not use and a waste of my money because I will never use it but have to pay for it.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Mango Bob