Absolute latest from Immigration on Insurance...

[ChouDoufu]

10 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

I received this email this morning from some Thai Visa Center.  It said I had a conversation with someone.  I don't remember talking with anyone here.  It just something I would never do.  I doubt I would ever use a service to do my extension of stay.  But here is the email.

 

******

 

What do you think is this spam or the truth?

 

spam.

 

some enterprising fellow in immigration collects our email addresses and sells them to multiple agencies.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, UncleMhee said:

"In addition to the existing required documents, visa applicant for Non-Immigrant Visa “O-A” (for retirement long stay) must furnish a completed “Insurance Certificate” as attached, as well as an original health insurance policy. A copy of the health insurance policy may only be accepted, provided that the applicant purchases the health insurance from participating Thai insurance companies as listed here http://longstay.tgia.org/."

IMO- if they  do not allow  a person to use insurance already purchased and mandate only insurance purchased from the 13 companies on long stay website-   there will be very few people who will even apply for an O-A Visa.  

 

It will become just like the O-X  too complicated; too much money  and to many hassles.  People who are in a retirement mode want simplicity; reasonable process and fairness.

 

Thailand will, in the future, fall off the radar of anyone choosing a place for foreign retirement.  That will solve their so-called hospital debt issue- no foreigners will be  in Thailand using any medical facility.  Then who will they blame?

 

 

[UncleMhee]

I was astonished by the directive, as they state failure to meet requirements will not see visa issued.

The way you have summed it up were my thoughts as well.

Obtaining my O-A was a mission to get everything lined up, with nothing more than three months old; add trying to buy insurance and obtain the "certificate" and including original policy in the application, those two items would have to be the first thing to obtain, hopefully with a post dated start date on the policy.

Oh well, only six months to go on second year before trying for a first extension. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by UncleMhee

[Davejf2017]

Why is it that a friend of mine who came here over 10 years ago on a OA visa he got from UK and was told by immigration officer that next year he will be required to have health insurance.This was done at Yasothon immigration and I have asked at Chonburi immigration and it is required for extensions of OA visas from 31st October this year.There is a lot of conflicting information being spread about.

[Martyp]

28 minutes ago, Davejf2017 said:

Why is it that a friend of mine who came here over 10 years ago on a OA visa he got from UK and was told by immigration officer that next year he will be required to have health insurance.This was done at Yasothon immigration and I have asked at Chonburi immigration and it is required for extensions of OA visas from 31st October this year.There is a lot of conflicting information being spread about.

Yes. In 4 more days real people can report real experiences.

[Maestro]

Following a detailed analysis of the new Police Order 548/2562 and Immigration Bureau Order 300-2562 and based on my reflections shown below I have now – very reluctantly – arrived at the conclusion that they apply to the application for a retirement extension made following arrival with a non-O visa lass O-A.

 

1.     Application for permission to stay
I make this application, usually tacitly, when I present my passport to an immigration official at the entry point into Thailand. If the official approves my application he puts an entry stamp (example) into my passport and the UNTIL date in this stamp is the expiration date of my permission to stay.

This type of permission to stay is covered by paragraph one of section 35 of the Immigration Act.
 

2.     Application for extension of permission to stay
I make this application at the local immigration office with the form TM.7 APPLICATION FOR EXTENSION OF TEMPORARY STAY IN THE KINGDOM when I wish to stay beyond the expiration date shown in the arrival stamp or beyond the expiration date of a previous extension of stay. If the official approves my application he puts a corresponding stamp into my passport (example)

This extension of stay is covered by paragraphs two and three of section 35 of the Immigration Act.
 

3.     Police Order 548/2562 dated 27 September 2019 (English translation)
Police Order 548/2562 amends clause 2.22 concerning the extension of stay for the reason of retirement (retirement extension) of the Police Order 327/2557 dated 30 June 2014 regarding extensions of stay.

The subject title of Police Order 548/2562 refers to an Application for a Temporary Stay, the same as the subject title of Police Order 327/2557, which correctly reflects the original Thai text. There are numerous other mentions of Application for a Temporary Stay in both Police Orders and no mention of application for extension of temporary stay, but the first line of page two mentions Extension of Stay.
 

4.     My evaluation
It is obvious that in Police Order 548/2562 and previous Police Orders regarding extensions of stay, Application for a Temporary Stay is used to mean Application for EXTENSION of Temporary Stay under the last paragraph of section 35 of the Immigration Act and nothing else.

Although clause 2.22(6) in Police Order 548/2562 mentions the “Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A” (hereafter called O-A visa) this is in the context of “Only an alien who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A” and is listed under the heading “Granting an Alien’s Extension of Stay” at the top of page 2.

The procedure of granting a permission to stay upon entry into Thailand in general, not limited to but including the arrival with an O-A visa, is obviously covered by another, old order of the Director General of the Royal Thai Police and by some internal Bureau of Immigration directive to the immigration offices and these internal rules probably have now been amended to cover the need for the insurance certificate for an arrival with an O-A visa. I have no copy of these documents.

The newly required insurance certificate comes into play on three separate occasions, listed in chronological order as follows:

a) Upon application for the O-A visa at a Thai embassy or consulate, based on a directive of the Ministry of the Interior and enforced by the Thai embassies and consulates.

b) Upon arrival at the entry point into Thailand on or after 31 October 2019, where the immigration official considers whether to grant permission to stay partly on the basis whether the holder of the O-A visa has the insurance certificate that was required for the issuance of the visa.

c) Upon application for an extension of stay, if any is made, where the immigration official at the local immigration office requires an insurance certificate in compliance with the new clause 2.22(6) of the Police Order 548/2562.

How immigration officials at entry checkpoints will deal with foreigners who arrive with a class O-A visa but do not have the requisite insurance certificate on hand remains to be seen.

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, Maestro said:

Following a detailed analysis of the new Police Order 548/2562 and Immigration Bureau Order 300-2562 and based on my reflections shown below I have now – very reluctantly – arrived at the conclusion that they apply to the application for a retirement extension made following arrival with a non-O visa lass O-A

Agreed.. Seemed impossible to read any other way for me. It lists extensions right in the heading. 

 

Quote

How immigration officials at entry checkpoints will deal with foreigners who arrive with a class O-A visa but do not have the requisite insurance certificate on hand remains to be seen.

And how airlines are supposed to manage this mess in the real world, is that certificate up to the standard that needs to be shown etc etc etc.. Huge minefield in the real world. I tend to think this is largely unworkable (stamp them in 30 days and let incountry manage it ??). 

 

The huge get out would be if immigration choose to start converting OA to O inside the kingdom. The fact this negates the entire law seems a little hopeful IMO but stranger things have been done. 

 

[Martyp]

23 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Following a detailed analysis of the new Police Order 548/2562 and Immigration Bureau Order 300-2562 and based on my reflections shown below I have now – very reluctantly – arrived at the conclusion that they apply to the application for a retirement extension made following arrival with a non-O visa lass O-A.

 

1.     Application for permission to stay
I make this application, usually tacitly, when I present my passport to an immigration official at the entry point into Thailand. If the official approves my application he puts an entry stamp (example) into my passport and the UNTIL date in this stamp is the expiration date of my permission to stay.

This type of permission to stay is covered by paragraph one of section 35 of the Immigration Act.
 

2.     Application for extension of permission to stay
I make this application at the local immigration office with the form TM.7 APPLICATION FOR EXTENSION OF TEMPORARY STAY IN THE KINGDOM when I wish to stay beyond the expiration date shown in the arrival stamp or beyond the expiration date of a previous extension of stay. If the official approves my application he puts a corresponding stamp into my passport (example)

This extension of stay is covered by paragraphs two and three of section 35 of the Immigration Act.
 

3.     Police Order 548/2562 dated 27 September 2019 (English translation)
Police Order 548/2562 amends clause 2.22 concerning the extension of stay for the reason of retirement (retirement extension) of the Police Order 327/2557 dated 30 June 2014 regarding extensions of stay.

The subject title of Police Order 548/2562 refers to an Application for a Temporary Stay, the same as the subject title of Police Order 327/2557, which correctly reflects the original Thai text. There are numerous other mentions of Application for a Temporary Stay in both Police Orders and no mention of application for extension of temporary stay, but the first line of page two mentions Extension of Stay.
 

4.     My evaluation
It is obvious that in Police Order 548/2562 and previous Police Orders regarding extensions of stay, Application for a Temporary Stay is used to mean Application for EXTENSION of Temporary Stay under the last paragraph of section 35 of the Immigration Act and nothing else.

Although clause 2.22(6) in Police Order 548/2562 mentions the “Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A” (hereafter called O-A visa) this is in the context of “Only an alien who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A” and is listed under the heading “Granting an Alien’s Extension of Stay” at the top of page 2.

The procedure of granting a permission to stay upon entry into Thailand in general, not limited to but including the arrival with an O-A visa, is obviously covered by another, old order of the Director General of the Royal Thai Police and by some internal Bureau of Immigration directive to the immigration offices and these internal rules probably have now been amended to cover the need for the insurance certificate for an arrival with an O-A visa. I have no copy of these documents.

The newly required insurance certificate comes into play on three separate occasions, listed in chronological order as follows:

a) Upon application for the O-A visa at a Thai embassy or consulate, based on a directive of the Ministry of the Interior and enforced by the Thai embassies and consulates.

b) Upon arrival at the entry point into Thailand on or after 31 October 2019, where the immigration official considers whether to grant permission to stay partly on the basis whether the holder of the O-A visa has the insurance certificate that was required for the issuance of the visa.

c) Upon application for an extension of stay, if any is made, where the immigration official at the local immigration office requires an insurance certificate in compliance with the new clause 2.22(6) of the Police Order 548/2562.

How immigration officials at entry checkpoints will deal with foreigners who arrive with a class O-A visa but do not have the requisite insurance certificate on hand remains to be seen.

Really? You put effort into this now? October 30th? 
 

Starting tomorrow we will begin to see how this will be applied for real. No more armchair lawyers/analysts.

[Maestro]

On 10/27/2019 at 5:43 AM, Mango Bob said:

...This only applies to those who apply for a O-A visa outside of Thailand at a Thai embassy...

 

An application for the O-A visa can only be made outside Thailand, at the embassy or a consulate in the country of permanent residence.

[john terry1001]

25 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The huge get out would be if immigration choose to start converting OA to O inside the kingdom

I think that loophole will soon be closed. Unfortunately it will make it more difficult for people who genuinely need to convert to a non O in order to get a marriage/family extension.  

[Maestro]

8 minutes ago, Martyp said:

...Starting tomorrow we will begin to see how this will be applied for real. No more armchair lawyers/analysts...

 

...but probably with variations in interpretation and enforcement from one immigration office to the next, as with so many other immigration rules.

 

We can but wait and how this will now unfold.

[Pattaya46]

23 minutes ago, Maestro said:

An application for the O-A visa can only be made outside Thailand, at the embassy or a consulate in the country of permanent residence.

This rule exists, yes, but if it was respected people who live in Thailand on Visa O-A could not get a new Visa O-A in their home country, because their country of residence is now Thailand...

[Peter Denis]

 

47 minutes ago, Maestro said:

An application for the O-A visa can only be made outside Thailand, at the embassy or a consulate in the country of permanent residence.

 

23 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

This rule exists, yes, but if it was respected people who live in Thailand on Visa O-A could not get a new Visa O-A in their home country, because their country of residence is now Thailand...

Interesting remark!

When you have officially changed your country of residence to Thailand, does that mean that you can no longer apply for a Non Imm O or OA Visa in the Thai embassy of your original home-country?

[Maestro]

At long last, I have found the "Cabinet Resolution as of April 2, 2019" referred to in the Police Order 548/2562, but it is obviously in Thai language.

 

 

Health insurance - Cabinet resolution on 2 April 2019 - th.pdf

Edited October 30, 2019 by Maestro
Increased font size of Thai text and updated the link

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

This rule exists, yes, but if it was respected people who live in Thailand on Visa O-A could not get a new Visa O-A in their home country, because their country of residence is now Thailand...

The rule means permanent residency in another country.

If you had that here in Thailand you would not need a visa.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Agreed.. Seemed impossible to read any other way for me. It lists extensions right in the heading. 

While it lists extensions- IMO- the key phrase in all of the letters and police order is that  the insurance requirement applies only to Non O-A Visas issued after 31 October 2019.

 

At some point a person who obtains an O-A Visa after 31 October 2019 will, if they desire have to extend their stay  and to do this that person will apply for an extension of stay.  The IO at whatever office will need to know  that the person has the requirement of providing insurance confirmation and that is why  there is a subject titled extensions.

 

In addition- if this particular person holding an O-A travels  outside Thailand  to use the multiple entry provision upon re-entering Thailand the Aiport or land border IO will look at the fact that an O-a is issued, the date of issuance (after 31 October 2019) and then ask for the insurance confirmation.   Normally- the person would get a one year stamp from the date of entry - however- if the insurance shows 7 months of validity they will get a 7 month stamp.  (If this provision applied to  prior O-A Visa and extensions and entries- it would cause chaos and a time consuming documents read at the entry point)

 

IMO- anyone with an O=A visa dated PRIOR to 31 October 2019 has no requirement for insurance whether on first entry or extenion of stay.  They will be granfathered which is standard procedure when there is a change  in a law or rule.  Simple logic and standards of law  would not allow a person who has an O-A Visa dated years ago and extened continuosly to have to abide by a new law that was not in effect at the time of their first application which could have been 10 years or so ago/ 

 

IMO- to make this new change retroactive is not only unfair but illegal.   Prior changes in IO rules have included grandfatheingr such as when the income levels were raised from 200K to 500K and then again to 800K.  (There are expats here today that  are retirment extensions that need only to show or bank 200,000 Baht per year)

 

IMO- the initial reports from various Immigration offices indicating that anyone having an O-A Visa as the original  method of entering Thailand regardless of the date of issuance shows confusion and a lack of understanding of the police order and that at some point a senior Immigration official will send out a notice to all offices  indicating it does not apply to any other O-A Visa except ones dated  after 31 October 2019.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Thaidream

[Maestro]

Machine translation of the Cabinet Resolution is not good enough for me to determine whether this resolution is intended for the issuance of and arrival with an O-A visa or for an extension of stay based on an O-A visa or for both.

 

@Jonathan Fairfield  Is it possible to have a professional translation to English done? It is a relatively short text, less than one page with Thai font size 14 points.

 

P.S. News from Jonathan. He is rushing a translation and hopes to have it not later than noon on Friday of this week.

 

 

[Sheryl]

53 minutes ago, Maestro said:

At long last, I have found the "Cabinet Resolution as of April 2, 2019" referred to in the Police Order 548/2562, but it is obviously in Thai language.

 

 

Health insurance - Cabinet resolution on 2 April 2019 - th.pdf 287.99 kB · 2 downloads

 

Thanks for that Maestro - I have been looking for this for ages without success.

 

The reference to this resolution has been a major stumbling block in getting foreign insurers to sign the TI-mandated insurance form.  I would suggest anyone facing this issue to take this and get an official translation (MFA in Thailand, try Thai Embassy if abroad) to provide their insurer with. It is not going to tell the insurer anything more than the form already does but at least it will set their minds at ease that they are not certifying anything outside the scope of the policy,

[Sheryl]

12 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Machine translation of the Cabinet Resolution is not good enough for me to determine whether this resolution is intended for the issuance of and arrival with an O-A visa or for an extension of stay based on an O-A visa or for both.

 

 

It is however clear that it is specific to O-A visa as was reported in the press.

 

Which means that the insurance requirement cannot be extended to O visas (as many have speculated) without either a new Cabinet Resolution or revised Immigration Law.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Which means that the insurance requirement cannot be extended to O visas (as many have speculated) without either a new Cabinet Resolution or revised Immigration Law.

Even the Thai version  uses the term -applies only to the O-A Visa...    However, an exact translation of the Thai text may reveal some of the nuances that were missed 

 

IMO- I just can't believe that this change is going to be applied retroactively to anyone who has an O-A Visa or extension prior to 31 Oct 2019.  The utter unfairness of applying it retroactively  creates diffuclt challenges for not only the expats but the Immigration offices.

[Jonathan Fairfield]

32 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Machine translation of the Cabinet Resolution is not good enough for me to determine whether this resolution is intended for the issuance of and arrival with an O-A visa or for an extension of stay based on an O-A visa or for both.

 

@Jonathan Fairfield  Is it possible to have a professional translation to English done? It is a relatively short text, less than one page with Thai font size 14 points.

 

Yes, I'll arrange for the resolution to be officially translated

[Maestro]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

...IMO- I just can't believe that this change is going to be applied retroactively to anyone who has an O-A Visa or extension prior to 31 Oct 2019.  The utter unfairness of applying it retroactively  creates diffuclt challenges for not only the expats but the Immigration offices.

 

Strangely, Police Order 248/262 grandfathers only those who arrived before 21 October 1998. I was hoping that this is a typo and should be 1961, but is not; the Thai text has B.E. 2541, which corresponds to A.D. 1998.

 

This is sad.

 

[GeorgeCross]

17 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Even the Thai version  uses the term -applies only to the O-A Visa...    However, an exact translation of the Thai text may reveal some of the nuances that were missed 

 

IMO- I just can't believe that this change is going to be applied retroactively to anyone who has an O-A Visa or extension prior to 31 Oct 2019.  The utter unfairness of applying it retroactively  creates diffuclt challenges for not only the expats but the Immigration offices.

 

it creates no problems for immigration offices:

 

"you have insurance certificate?"

 

"no"

 

"cannot do extension. next!"

 

"but .blah.blah.. but .order.#.blah.blah."

 

"NEXT!!"

 

it will be no different than this years: "you have TM30?" 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Strangely, Police Order 248/262 grandfathers only those who arrived before 21 October 1998. I was hoping that this is a typo and should be 1961, but is not; the Thai text has B.E. 2541, which corresponds to A.D. 1998.

That has been in every police order since October of 1998 when they raised the financial requirements due the the devaluation of the baht then.

[lkv]

14 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

it creates no problems for immigration offices:

 

"you have insurance certificate?"

 

"no"

 

"cannot do extension. next!"

 

"but .blah.blah.. but .order.#.blah.blah."

 

"NEXT!!"

 

it will be no different than this years: "you have TM30?" 

 

 

You forgot the other scenario.

 

"You have insurance certificate?"

 

"no"

 

"ok, today you no enter thailand and you go back home country"

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been in every police order since October of 1998 when they raised the financial requirements due the the devaluation of the baht then.

Yes, I remeber it  and also remember the next one which raised the amount to 500K and addressed an age change- this was also grandfathered and then the raise to 800K /

 

There are expats here whose income requirement is 200K; also 500K and the rest 800K and that is why I would be very surprised that the insurance requirement on an O-A would be retroactive.  The Police order  both in English and Thai refers specifically to  the change affecting the O-A issued  after 31 October 2019.  IMO if it was being applied retroactive- it would specifically state  it was applying to anyone holding an O-A Visa or extension prior to  and after 31 October 2019.

[GeorgeCross]

9 minutes ago, lkv said:

You forgot the other scenario.

 

"You have insurance certificate?"

 

"no"

 

"ok, today you no enter thailand and you go back home country"

 

yeah that too

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The Police order  both in English and Thai refers specifically to  the change affecting the O-A issued  after 31 October 2019.  IMO if it was being applied retroactive- it would specifically state  it was applying to anyone holding an O-A Visa or extension prior to  and after 31 October 2019.

 

you know i keep reading that section and to me it reads as how they will now handle extensions and entrances after 31 October 2019 NOT when it was issued.

 

i just can't see how you guys are reading it as such, to me it reads as "shall abide by the following practices ... effective from ..."

 

it says nothing about WHEN the O-A was issued

 

please correct me if i am wrong?

 

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Even the Thai version  uses the term -applies only to the O-A Visa...    However, an exact translation of the Thai text may reveal some of the nuances that were missed...

 

Police Order 548/2562 has been issued to modify clause 2.22 of Police Order 325/2557 and thus is clearly about the retirement extension and nothing else. 

 

In my view, the text "an alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A" in clause 2.22(6) of Police Order 548/2562 refers to a foreigner who got an O-A visa from an embassy or consulate and upon arrival in Thailand was given permission to stay. If tomorrow or later he applies for an extension of stay based on that visa the insurance requirement applies to him unless he meets the grandfathering terms in clause 2.22(7)

 

The translation "has been granted" is a fair translation of the Thai text ได้รับ ("was granted" might have been more precise)

 

I have the impression that the Police Order 248/2562 was drafted in a hurry, was not checked by immigration's legal section, and perhaps for these reasons is a bit of a mess.

[GeorgeCross]

also re: grandfathering in every other document it seems to have its own section and yet with this document there is none

 

sorry guys i think you are clutching at straws, this is not being grandfathered, IMO all OAs must have insurance upon entry or extension after tomorrow whenever they were granted

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by GeorgeCross