I was wrong... the tourists ARE gone!

[LomSak27]

Did I say dead?!
 

The tourists were back, at least for one night. Alone this year, the G at sisters, I impulsively decided to have Christmas eve dinner at the Duangtawan Hotel. They had room if I came early for the first sitting. Nice meal by the way and the ‘Marco Polo’ was packing up by the time I left. Took the right at Chang Klan and was pleasantly surprised to see night market & sidewalks filled with people. They were streaming into the Anusan. It really looked alive and the first time I have seen that since I got back in 2018. Groups of people on the sidewalks all the way to the Shangri La and past to the Buarawong 4 way. Wow. Given all the bad, this a nice holiday positive. Hope it lasts.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/15/2019 at 4:32 AM, donnacha said:

I happened to be out around that area last Saturday night and was astonished by how dead it was.

Hard to believe this is high season. Perhaps the Chinese are all congregating elsewhere in Chiang Mai, but I do not see how these areas, previously so popular with Western tourists, will be able to continue on in their current form.

The bar area of Loi Kroh, in particular, has struggled ever since the junta came in and enforced ridiculous closing times but, as I walked past entirely empty bars at the prime drinking time of 9pm on Saturday night, I wondered if they now even earn enough to cover the cost of electricity.

 

Easy to see if the Chinese are still in C M. Just go in the 5 * hotels near the night market. That's where they stay by the busloads.

 

Are not CM bar closing times dictated by city hall, NOT the junta? They certainly don't like people staying out at night. Just eat and tucked up in bed by 10pm is what they want, apparently.

Loi Kroh bars are suffering, IMO, because they are pants. Unattractive, dirty, poorly lit and way too expensive for takeaways. They are just not worth the cost of being there. Even the Katoey bars seem to specialise in ugly "girls". I did try to find a bar I liked on the street, but it was a lost cause. The street itself, dirty, broken footpaths- so had to walk in the street, not at all a street one would want to walk along.

The entire city is dirty, broken, traffic congested and unwelcoming. No wonder tourists are opting for better destinations.

The days when Thailand was the only destination in SEA are long gone. Better wake up and smell the coffee, or die the death of tourism. Frankly, if Burma could sort it's politics out LOS would be nothing at all for tourists.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/17/2019 at 6:54 PM, Ventenio said:

Before you came to Thailand, did you honestly tell yourself:

 

OK, I'll go on message boards all day and bash the country I've chosen to live in.  I'll rant about others, pollution, and it will be all negative.  That will definitely lead to a purposeful life and a life worth living!!!!  Living the dream!!

 

TV needs a Xmas party with lots of pictures.....I really need to put a face to all these clowns

I came to Thailand in the 90s and LOVED it. Spent every holiday there.

Unfortunately, Thaksin ruined the nightlife and it's never recovered.

The greedy Thais have ruined every decent beach with concrete.

I no longer love it as much as I did in the 90s, and I will point the problems out for the benefit of those that might get fooled by the travel agent brochures.

Whatever the problems of Thailand are, they were created by Thais.

[Sticky Wicket]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:18 AM, Ventenio said:

wait until the end of January and then check.

 

last year it wasn't that busy before Xmas

Then wait for the deadly smoke to hit and everybody running for cover!

[donnacha]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are not CM bar closing times dictated by city hall, NOT the junta?

By the junta, famously.

Many in CM felt that the junta's later refusal to ease the restrictions, as they were doing for other tourism-dependent cities, was a symbolic punishment for Chiang Mai being a powerbase for the Redshirts.

Same goes for the crackdown on hotels, with the politics being most blatant in the case of the Eastin Tan (opp. Maya).

 

 

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Loi Kroh bars are suffering, IMO, because they are pants. Unattractive, dirty, poorly lit and way too expensive for takeaways. They are just not worth the cost of being there.

Chicken & egg problem. After 5 years of having their business decimated, it is a miracle they are still there at all. When a business starts to struggle, regular maintenance is the first thing to go.

Lack of regular clientele pushes the high earners to greener pastures, while the dregs left behind push up their prices to compensate for the reduction in customers (known as "Thai Economics").

It is a death spiral, but it would be a mistake to presume they just got lazy and that killed the business. The area was doomed from the day the elected government was overthrown.
 

 

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Even the Katoey bars seem to specialise in ugly "girls".

It is not my area of expertise but, these days, you could probably more easily find the "girls" you're looking for online. Good luck, and make sure she uses protection.
 

 

[Lacessit]

I'm thinking Chiang Rai is a better tourist destination now. More laidback, less expensive. Superior in terms of easier access to more attractions - White Temple, Singha Gardens, Phu Chi Fa, Wat Sang Kaew Phothiyan, Doi Mae Salong, Mae Sai markets and so on. Once you've been to the San Kamphaeng Hot Springs, Doi Suthep and Doi Inthanon, that's about it for Chiang Mai.

Once they fix the mess that is the 118, I think Chiang Rai will supplant Chiang Mai for tourism.

[connda]

On 12/14/2019 at 10:32 PM, donnacha said:

I happened to be out around that area last Saturday night and was astonished by how dead it was.

Hard to believe this is high season. Perhaps the Chinese are all congregating elsewhere in Chiang Mai, but I do not see how these areas, previously so popular with Western tourists, will be able to continue on in their current form.

The bar area of Loi Kroh, in particular, has struggled ever since the junta came in and enforced ridiculous closing times but, as I walked past entirely empty bars at the prime drinking time of 9pm on Saturday night, I wondered if they now even earn enough to cover the cost of electricity.

 

What this is is a testament to the demise of the Western tourist.  And given the increasingly draconian immigration policies as well as the increasingly bad air quality, traffic, prices, and strong THB - my guess is that it will also see the slow demise of Western expats in general.  Those with Thai families, by necessity, may stay for the long-haul, but I'm starting to fail to see what is keeping the average farang retirees.  Thailand's deteriorating and other SE Asian countries are getting better as far as quality of life.  Obviously Western tourists have gotten that message.

Edited December 27, 2019 by connda

[connda]

On 12/26/2019 at 7:44 AM, Sticky Wicket said:

Then wait for the deadly smoke to hit and everybody running for cover!

No need to wait.  It has already arrived. 

Today from https://aqicn.org/map/thailand/

[dcnx]

1 hour ago, connda said:

but I'm starting to fail to see what is keeping the average farang retirees.  

Desperation, family, work, too broke to move, and addiction. Take your pick.
 

There isn’t any other reason to subject yourself to the pollution, noise, traffic, and immigration nonsense that people have to go through. Unless you have to be here, it no longer makes sense to be here.

[dcnx]

1 hour ago, connda said:

No need to wait.  It has already arrived. 

Today from https://aqicn.org/map/thailand/

Been that way for a few days now. Was that way a couple weeks ago, and a couple of weeks before that. Who needs clean air? It’s only our health at risk.

[dcnx]

On 12/17/2019 at 12:54 PM, Ventenio said:

Before you came to Thailand, did you honestly tell yourself:

 

OK, I'll go on message boards all day and bash the country I've chosen to live in.  I'll rant about others, pollution, and it will be all negative.  That will definitely lead to a purposeful life and a life worth living!!!!  Living the dream!!

 

TV needs a Xmas party with lots of pictures.....I really need to put a face to all these clowns

Places change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

 

When I came the beaches were clean and pleasant. Prices were reasonable for what you got in return. There wasn’t mobs of obnoxious Chinese tour groups everywhere. Traffic wasn’t half as bad. Immigration was always ridiculous but it was MUCH easier and friendlier. And we didn’t have 7 - 8 months of terribly polluted air, we had 3. Overall, things have deteriorated.
 

Complaining that your home has gone to <deleted> is acceptable. It’s a big move to come here and those who started families and are not stuck feel it the most. They placed their bet on a place that was very different than it is now and they lost big.

 

I’m fortunate because I get to leave. Others are not so lucky. Many are in denial, stuck, broke, or living with sex or alcohol addiction. It’s fairly easy to spot them here based on how they react and ignore the obvious.

[HaleySabai]

I go into town (nearly) every Monday night for the Boy Blues Bar jam in Galare. Before heading there I grab a beer at 7/11 and go to the same girl for a footy-massage on Lor Kroh. She said(and it's clear as dog balls) that the business is WAY down in this area.

[fhickson]

kalare night bizarre has been dead for years...

not sure who all those stalls sell to or why so many still setup there...

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by fhickson

[utalkin2me]

MAjor world news stories where Thailand has made the news: kids trapped in a cave, boat filled with tourists sinks, and worst air in the entire world. Oh, and "Thailand bans street food" which as most of us know is not so accurate, but is true in many respects. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by utalkin2me

[FolkGuitar]

8 hours ago, dcnx said:

Desperation, family, work, too broke to move, and addiction. Take your pick.
 

There isn’t any other reason to subject yourself to the pollution, noise, traffic, and immigration nonsense that people have to go through. Unless you have to be here, it no longer makes sense to be here.

 

With all due respect, I disagree completely.  We are free to move, should we have any valid reason to do so. We don't. We are quite happy here. Sure, we wear a mask for 2-3 weeks a year... but that's all. Sure, the traffic is bad... IF you are in a car. We're not. We use motorbikes every day and the traffic is not a problem. Immigration? Last renewal took us almost 90 minutes. 90 minutes out of a year? Hardly a problem. Even when Imm was at the Promenada, renewals took us less than two hours... with a line sitter.  We've been here 19 years now. We have enough money should we want to move, but I don't see any reason to do so in the foreseeable future. In fact, with the decline in tourists, I find the town to be getting better and better every day! It makes perfect sense for us to be here. Sorry you don't like it.

[sanemax]

3 hours ago, fhickson said:

kalare night bizarre has been dead for years...

not sure who all those stalls sell to or why so many still setup there...

 

Selling items at a higher price to make big money with few sales

[jimgilly]

20 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

With all due respect, I disagree completely.  We are free to move, should we have any valid reason to do so. We don't. We are quite happy here. Sure, we wear a mask for 2-3 weeks a year... but that's all. Sure, the traffic is bad... IF you are in a car. We're not. We use motorbikes every day and the traffic is not a problem. Immigration? Last renewal took us almost 90 minutes. 90 minutes out of a year? Hardly a problem. Even when Imm was at the Promenada, renewals took us less than two hours... with a line sitter.  We've been here 19 years now. We have enough money should we want to move, but I don't see any reason to do so in the foreseeable future. In fact, with the decline in tourists, I find the town to be getting better and better every day! It makes perfect sense for us to be here. Sorry you don't like it.

There could be someone thinking of moving to CM and are worried about the air pollution there so why would you lie and say the problem is only 2 to 3 weeks a year?  I suggest you stop misleading people who unlike yourself, might be concerned about their health and would be better off somewhere else. 

 

Maybe you can't leave for some reason but no need to downplay how bad the problem is for others who haven't been there yet.  If you can't post the truth then don't post.

[FolkGuitar]

8 hours ago, jimgilly said:

There could be someone thinking of moving to CM and are worried about the air pollution there so why would you lie and say the problem is only 2 to 3 weeks a year?  I suggest you stop misleading people who unlike yourself, might be concerned about their health and would be better off somewhere else. 

 

Maybe you can't leave for some reason but no need to downplay how bad the problem is for others who haven't been there yet.  If you can't post the truth then don't post.

 

Sorry, but I do NOT believe that the problem is as serious as you say. I say that the air pollution is no worse than someone who smokes 7 cigarettes per day, and only that bad for a few weeks out of the entire burning season.  We do wear an N95 mask for those 2-3 weeks, as a safety precaution.  We are both athletic and active all year around, and do not find the air pollution to be a problem for us.  I'm sorry that you are so delicate as to be affected by it. Perhaps improving your diet might help, or a regular exercise program? Are you obese? That seems to exacerbate breathing difficulties.

 

It seems that many folks love to spend their time looking for various ways to be unhappy. Expats are famous for it, especially ones who post in ThaiVisa, and even go so far as the create Excel spread sheets to show data proving why they should be unhappy.  Air pollution stats, traffic accident stats, illness stats, temperature stats. Sorry, but I don't wish to dwell on such things. There are too many positives occupying my time.

 

There is absolutely nothing holding us against our wishes here in Chiang Mai. We stay because we like it here. We own a lovely home in southern Japan that we could live in should we want to. We do not.  We have no thoughts of leaving Chiang Mai, and when asked about relocation to Chiang Mai by friends and acquaintances, unhesitatingly state that we consider it a wonderful retirement location!  Had we to do it all over again, deciding where in the world we'd like to spend our retirement years, we'd choose Chiang Mai again, just as we did 19 years ago.

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

I say that the air pollution is no worse than someone who smokes 7 cigarettes per day, and only that bad for a few weeks out of the entire burning season.

Actually today it's as bad as this already, and it will probably be like this until May. Your claim that this is just the case for 2-3 weeks per year is pure denial.

From now until May this are about 5 months, at 7 cigarettes a day this are about 50 packs of cigerattes in this period.

Edited December 28, 2019 by jackdd

[Bassosa]

The digital nomad scene is also frantically discussing the current air quality. It's all over Facebook.

 

This might be a relief to some, but I can see the number of digital nomads come to CM take a hit too.

CM is losing it's status as THE digital nomad hub at an alarming pace, which sucks because my girlfriend's business relies heavily on them.

[Bassosa]

Just now, Bassosa said:

The digital nomad scene is also frantically discussing the current air quality. It's all over Facebook.

 

This might be a relief to some, but I can see the number of digital nomads coming to CM take a hit.

CM is losing it's status as THE digital nomad hub at an alarming pace, which sucks because my girlfriend's business relies heavily on them.

 

[FolkGuitar]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Actually today it's as bad as this already, and it will probably be like this until May. Your claim that this is just the case for 2-3 weeks per year is pure denial.

From now until May this are about 5 months, at 7 cigarettes a day this are about 50 packs of cigerattes in this period.

 

As someone who used to smoke two packs of unfiltered menthol cigarettes a day  (not 7 cigarettes a day,)  while I prefer clearer air, I'm quite satisfied with life here. Sorry that you are not! 

 

The stress you build up worrying about this will certainly kill you faster, while making you uncomfortable and unhappy while waiting for it. Unless, of course, constantly complaining makes you happy...

[atyclb]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:34 PM, Thaidream said:

Completely agree.   Every few months I  take a trip to Bangkok and  visit friends or conduct  some personal business.    In the hotels I use normally about 3 Star- I hardly see any Westerners- only Asians and some Middle Easterners but at about 50% occupancy.  

 

I used to enjoy a nice buffet at a  large  hotel- but no more- the prices are  increadibly high from 2000 Baht to 5000 Baht for  a night time meal without any alcohol.  Add a decent bottle of wine and a single diner can spend 7-10,00 Baht.   Ridiculous.  I can do much better in Las Vegas; Mexico; Hanoi or Manila

 

People didn't become wealthy paying exorbitant prices for things they know should be less and of better quality. No one likes to be taken advantage of/

 

The raises in the excise tax on mostly everything imported have made Thailand a poor choice .  Throw in  pollutionl poor beaches;  surly immigration officers who refuse to smile when tourists enter; and double pricing have  finally killed the 'golden goose.

 

I feel sorry for the average Thai person who has to put up with this nonsense. The Thai Government raised the daily minimum wage a  whopping 5-6 Baht per day. That ought to pay for a one way ride on a 50 year old bus with no air.

 

 

had a bottle of leffe beer at a high end da nang club apocalypse on beach, live band.  total cost about 130 baht, same price big c sells it for in thailand. 

[saengd]

18 minutes ago, Bassosa said:

The digital nomad scene is also frantically discussing the current air quality. It's all over Facebook.

 

This might be a relief to some, but I can see the number of digital nomads come to CM take a hit too.

CM is losing it's status as THE digital nomad hub at an alarming pace, which sucks because my girlfriend's business relies heavily on them.

There is a God after all.

[jackdd]

34 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

As someone who used to smoke two packs of unfiltered menthol cigarettes a day  (not 7 cigarettes a day,)  while I prefer clearer air, I'm quite satisfied with life here. Sorry that you are not! 

 

The stress you build up worrying about this will certainly kill you faster, while making you uncomfortable and unhappy while waiting for it. Unless, of course, constantly complaining makes you happy...

If i would not like to stay in Chiang Mai i would go somewhere else. So far the positives still outweigh the negatives for me. The air pollution isn't stressing me, but i would still prefer clean air 12 months of the year and not only 7.

Right now i can already say that i won't stay in Chiang Mai forever and this is mainly due to the air pollution.

Edited December 28, 2019 by jackdd

[Samuel Smith]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Actually today it's as bad as this already, and it will probably be like this until May. Your claim that this is just the case for 2-3 weeks per year is pure denial.

From now until May this are about 5 months, at 7 cigarettes a day this are about 50 packs of cigerattes in this period.

Nov & Dec were mostly in orange & red.  Add on Jan to May = 7 months of poor air quality.

[Bassosa]

38 minutes ago, Samuel Smith said:

Nov & Dec were mostly in orange & red.  Add on Jan to May = 7 months of poor air quality.

Make that 12 months for people like me who live in the city. Even on the clearest of days there is no stopping thousands of filthy diesels poisoning the air on a very local scale. Once rush hour ends in the evening, the air is thick with smoke where I live, no matter the season.

[lkn]

4 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

Perhaps improving your diet might help, or a regular exercise program? Are you obese? That seems to exacerbate breathing difficulties.

I don’t normally complain about air quality in Chiang Mai, and it’s not currently affecting my health, but it is the main reason why I am looking for somewhere else to spend my winters.

 

There are many problems in Chiang Mai (and Thailand), but none of them are scientifically shown to shorten my life expectancy and increase risk of lung cancer.

 

Honestly, your comment comes off as rather ignorant.

[saengd]

48 minutes ago, lkn said:

I don’t normally complain about air quality in Chiang Mai, and it’s not currently affecting my health, but it is the main reason why I am looking for somewhere else to spend my winters.

 

There are many problems in Chiang Mai (and Thailand), but none of them are scientifically shown to shorten my life expectancy and increase risk of lung cancer.

 

Honestly, your comment comes off as rather ignorant.

https://aqli.epic.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/EPIC_ThailandFactSheet.pdf

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/air-pollution/toxic-air-pollution-shortens-childrens-lives-by-20-months

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2019/03/11/breathe-in-thailand-and-die-up-to-4-years-sooner-researchers/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4076679/

[FolkGuitar]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

If i would not like to stay in Chiang Mai i would go somewhere else. So far the positives still outweigh the negatives for me. The air pollution isn't stressing me, but i would still prefer clean air 12 months of the year and not only 7.

 

 

I imagine any rational person would.

 

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Honestly, your comment comes off as rather ignorant.

 

Do you mean obesity doesn't impact ongoing breathing problems? Facts prove that it does.

Or did you mean that regular exercise and improved diet have no impact on health? Fact prove otherwise.

Just as the fact prove that stressing about situations over which you have no control negatively affect your health.

If you don't like the conditions, leave. If you can't leave, stop complaining about them. The stress you deal with is the stress you create for yourself.

The choice is yours to make.