How do you know if two Passports are Linked

[007 RED]

5 hours ago, legend49 said:

My Australian colleague is also located in west Africa  is head of security of 4 mines and has spent all his life in " global security work" . He shows me an app on his PC that is a global database that has every persons travel listed once you enter details. So we put my Aussie passport number in, OMG it listed places I forgotten I had visited plus it showed details of my UK passport and travel. That's all I am going to say , have a happy trip and pray no smart ##s immigration person does a thorough check on your arrival.

Sorry, but there is no such facility that will give you, or anyone else, the details of all your past travel by just entering your passport number into a computer app.

 

The only people (or should I say companies) that would have details of your past individual travel arrangements would be the separate airline/ferry/train companies, with whom you have travelled.   This being the case, what you are suggesting is that all these companies’ computer databases are in some way linked and that anyone can just tap in a passport number and see where that person has travelled.

 

Sorry but not a ‘cat in hells’ chance.  Firstly, no travel company is going to share your travel data with their competitors for obvious commercial reasons.  Secondly, most countries have data protection laws which limit, if not prevent the sharing of personal data without good or lawful cause.  Thirdly, linking all these hundreds of thousands of travel company database throughout the world would be a logistical nightmare and the bandwidth needed to complete just one search would probably bring down the internet

 

Of course another conspiracy theory is that every countries’ immigration database are linked and that anyone can just enter a person’s passport number and see which countries someone has been too.  Again, not a ‘cat in hells’ chance of such a facility existing.  Governments do share information for national security reasons but only on a case-by-case basis and they would certainly not give access to such information to any member of the public via an app.

 

FYI…. I spent over 10 years of my life as a principle co-ordinator on the joint NSA – GCHQ eBorder project following 911.  My contribution to this project included overseeing the design, development, testing and installation of various eBorder systems such as machine readable travel documents, ePassports (so called biometric passports) and the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  Following my retirement from the project I have continued to work with both national security agencies on a consultancy basis and to this date I’ve never seen or heard of such an app as you describe. 

 

If such an app does exist, please share the details as I’m sure every TV member would love to access it.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, moonhiker said:

You know all this for fact?

Yes.

 

1 hour ago, moonhiker said:

You have information from reliable sources that thai authorities do use the available technology as you describe to link multiple passports?

Yes, me.

 

I spent over 10 years of my life as a principle co-ordinator on the joint NSA – GCHQ eBorder project following 911.  My contribution to this project included overseeing the design, development, testing and installation of various eBorder systems such as machine readable travel documents, ePassports (so called biometric passports) and the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS). 

 

Although retired as a project co-ordinator I have continued to work with both national security agencies on a consultancy basis and was actively involved in the installation of the APIS in Thailand during 2014-16. 

 

Because APIS is linked to the Immigration system (as well as the Customs and National Security Agency systems) I think that it is reasonable to say that I have fairly good understanding of how the Thai Immigration computer system works. 

 

Next question?  ???? 

 

[Isaanbiker]

No worries ,OP.

 

You might have enough time to think about your situation when you're in a detention cell.

 

  Do you really think that they're that stupid? 

[FritsSikkink]

You will know when being denied entry.

[murikamba]

4 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

o worries ,OP.

 

You might have enough time to think about your situation when you're in a detention cell.

 

  Do you really think that they're that stupid? 

I mostly travel from Singapore. If they deny me, I will be sent back to Singapore. No problem. Can they deny EV visa if I have a prior entry denial? I will continue with two passports till I am denied entry. Also, is there any report of entry denial at UDP. May be I switch to UDP airport and travel to KL, instead of Singapore.

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, murikamba said:

...Can they deny EV visa if I have a prior entry denial?...

 

What do you mean with EV vis@?

[Salerno]

I was thinking ED Visa.

 

[Maestro]

40 minutes ago, Salerno said:

I was thinking ED Visa.

 

 

Thank you, Salerno, but now I have a dilemma. If the OP, to whom I addressed the question, does not answer it, am to to take this as his tacit confirmation that your guess, ie your thinking, is correct?

 

The reasonable action for me to take, I believe, is to wait and see whether the OP replies and if he does not I shall assume that he is no longer interested in an answer to his question.

[murikamba]

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

What do you mean with EV vis@?

I meant Elite Visa.

[Caldera]

6 hours ago, murikamba said:

I mostly travel from Singapore. If they deny me, I will be sent back to Singapore. No problem. Can they deny EV visa if I have a prior entry denial? I will continue with two passports till I am denied entry. Also, is there any report of entry denial at UDP. May be I switch to UDP airport and travel to KL, instead of Singapore.

We've had reports from people who were denied entry for the bogus reason of spending "too much" time in Thailand and who then applied for an Elite visa. They got the Elite visa and it fixed their issues, so a denial of entry in itself shouldn't lead to a rejection.

 

Also, some people who spent "too much" time in Thailand were advised by IOs that they should apply for an Elite visa. It's seen as a proper visa for long-term tourism.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Caldera

[Taxi]

I have 2 passports and immigration asked me about it when entering one time.  No drama it was just a question, do you also have a xx passport, I said yes and that was it. I've used both to enter / exit Thailand but now only use my passport with the Thai visa in it.

[London Boy]

This is an interesting post. I've lived here for almost 6 years by having two passports (NZ and UK) on a combination of TR and ED visas. I'm pretty confident they wernt linked as I'd be warned by an IO when entering on my first passport at the airport and then re enter 3 months later on my 2nd passport with no problems. However this was all before the bioscanners were introduced last year and I then became a bit more cautious. Before September 2019, I could have confidentally siad they do not link your passports, otherwise I wouldn't have lived here so long. Now they have my finger prints, I'm not so sure as I have attempted to swap passports since then. Will report back if I have a definite answer in the near future.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, London Boy said:

Before September 2019, I could have confidentally siad they do not link your passports, otherwise I wouldn't have lived here so long. 

I can assure you that your two passports are linked within the Immigration system.  Please read my post #20 for details of how its done.

 

FYI....  The fact that Immigration are now using fingerprinting on arrival/exit will not affect how the system links two computers together.

 

There's nothing wrong or illegal about having two passports provided they are your own and you always remember when leaving to hand the same passport to the IO as you used to enter.

 

Given your long term stay within the Kingdom, the problem will possibly come when the IO decides to look at your entry/exit history which involves him/her having to drill down several layers into the system.  Your history is not automatically displayed when the IO scans your passport.   In the history screen the system will display your entry/exit history in cronological order from both passports.

 

The IO wont be concerned about you having two passport, but may want an explaination as to why you have spent so much time in the Kingdom.

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by 007 RED
Typo

[London Boy]

2 hours ago, 007 RED said:

I can assure you that your two passports are linked within the Immigration system.  Please read my post #20 for details of how its done.

 

FYI....  The fact that Immigration are now using fingerprinting on arrival/exit will not affect how the system links two computers together.

 

There's nothing wrong or illegal about having two passports provided they are your own and you always remember when leaving to hand the same passport to the IO as you used to enter.

 

Given your long term stay within the Kingdom, the problem will possibly come when the IO decides to look at your entry/exit history which involves him/her having to drill down several layers into the system.  Your history is not automatically displayed when the IO scans your passport.   In the history screen the system will display your entry/exit history in cronological order from both passports.

 

The IO wont be concerned about you having two passport, but may want an explaination as to why you have spent so much time in the Kingdom.

 

I know this isn't true because I was stopped and interagated at DM, coming back from Yangon in 2016. They printed out my entries and were looking for a reason to deny me entry. As we went through the entires, it was only my UK passport that history that was available to them. They did let me in on that occassion, as I was able to show a flight out within two months.

[G950]

Matching people with the various passports that they carry is one of the simplest tasks that any immigration database will do. Just have to match name/dob/place of birth/gender etc "simple database query 101".

 

The system will definitely "soft match" any passports you hold, only issue is how well trained the IO is. In Thailand, the land of smiles/incompetence there is a slight chance it is not matched on maybe the first presentation. However, it will be picked up pretty quickly on second or 3rd presentation and is definitely not a long term solution. 

 

For what it is worth I have been in computing for a long time. It would actually be hard to design an immigration system that doesn't match various different passports easy. Just basic basic stuff. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by G950
Always check your spelling kiddies

[G950]

On 2/11/2020 at 2:17 PM, legend49 said:

My Australian colleague is also located in west Africa  is head of security of 4 mines and has spent all his life in " global security work" . He shows me an app on his PC that is a global database that has every persons travel listed once you enter details. So we put my Aussie passport number in, OMG it listed places I forgotten I had visited plus it showed details of my UK passport and travel. That's all I am going to say , have a happy trip and pray no smart ##s immigration person does a thorough check on your arrival.

Not even a slight chance such a database app exists.......

[London Boy]

10 hours ago, G950 said:

Matching people with the various passports that they carry is one of the simplest tasks that any immigration database will do. Just have to match name/dob/place of birth/gender etc "simple database query 101".

 

The system will definitely "soft match" any passports you hold, only issue is how well trained the IO is. In Thailand, the land of smiles/incompetence there is a slight chance it is not matched on maybe the first presentation. However, it will be picked up pretty quickly on second or 3rd presentation and is definitely not a long term solution. 

 

For what it is worth I have been in computing for a long time. It would actually be hard to design an immigration system that doesn't match various different passports easy. Just basic basic stuff. 

 

 

I never undertsand posts like this. I've just told you I've lived here for 6 years, during an period of elevated IO scrutiny, and was even pulled aside and had my entires printed. Yet you insistent on qouting theory, rather then listening to real life. If my passports were matched, they would be matched. 6 years is a long time. So many contributors on this forum cant accept anyones opinion but their own.

[ThaiBunny]

10 hours ago, G950 said:

Matching people with the various passports that they carry is one of the simplest tasks that any immigration database will do. Just have to match name/dob/place of birth/gender etc "simple database query 101".

A friend of mine, a computer programmer, once worked on a "matching" project for Australian Immigration; they were attempting to match up individuals who, as dual passport holders would enter and leave Australia on the two passports indiscriminately. The project failed comprehensively (known as "ATFH"), to the extent that Australia changed its policy so that a person could not have an Australian passport and an Australian Resident Return Visa in a different country's passport. Having worked on a number of projects myself attempting to consolidate several customer databases into one, you need more than simply name, DOB and gender to provide a perfect match; you get both too many false positives and too many false negatives otherwise

 

I've also checked the "bar code" that's on the bottom of the photo page of the three passports that I hold, and "place of birth" is NOT one of the identifiers, so it would not be held in Thai Immigration's database

Edited February 14, 2020 by ThaiBunny

[Maestro]

4 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

...I've also checked the "bar code" that's on the bottom of the photo page of the three passports that I hold, and "place of birth" is NOT one of the identifiers, so it would not be held in Thai Immigration's database

 

If your passport does not have your birth date on the second line of the machine readable code on the photo page, your passport is fake. 

 

Please see page 35 of this ICAO document:

Passport machine readable zone info.pdf

 

P.S. Apologies, your post was about the place of birth, not the date of birth (speed reading error on my part)

Edited February 14, 2020 by Maestro
Added postscript

[007 RED]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 10:48 PM, London Boy said:

I know this isn't true because I was stopped and interagated at DM, coming back from Yangon in 2016. They printed out my entries and were looking for a reason to deny me entry. As we went through the entires, it was only my UK passport that history that was available to them. They did let me in on that occassion, as I was able to show a flight out within two months.

When I read your comment that when Immigration printed out your entries only your UK passport history was available, particularly given your extensive history of TV and ED visas during the past 6 years (which can be derived from reading your earlier posts). I was somewhat puzzled as to how you have managed to escape further scrutiny.

 

I first came to Thailand 29 years ago using my good old hardbacked British passport as shown below.

 

 

Since my first entry back in 1991, I have entered the Kingdom over 160 times using both UK and my other EU passport.  In fact, during those 29 years I have had 3 replacement UK and 3 replacement other EU country passports.

 

Not once during those 29 years have I ever declared to immigration that I have more than one passport, nor have I ever been asked if I hold dual nationality, and yet my compete entry/exit history showing the details of all my entries/exits, and which passports were used on each occasion, are available to the Immigration Officer to see through their history screen which I have seen on several occasions.

 

Yesterday I needed to go to Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road.  After concluding my business at the bank, I met up with a family friend who happens to be a senior Immigration Officer (Colonel) based at Immigration HQ office just around the corner.  During lunch I mentioned your comments concerning the printout of your history only showing data from one passport.  My friend was as perplexed as me, so after lunch I went back with them to their office and we did a few tests.

 

My friend entered my UK passport number into the computer and after being presented with my biographical details (as shown on my photo page) they ‘drilled down’ several layers to the ‘history’ facility. 

 

There, low and behold, was my complete entry/exit history going back to 1991.  The screen display showed every date of arrival/departure, passport number and country code, visa code/type plus quite a lot of other coded information.  On scrolling down from the latest entry, there must have been about 6 or 7 screen pages of data and it clearly included entries/exits using both my UK and my other EU passport.

 

My friend called up the print facility and was presented with a very comprehensive display of printing options which could be selected by clicking the appropriate ‘radio button’ on the screen.  These included: B&W, colour, greyscale, all pages or specific pages, single or double sided, portrait or landscape.  But most importantly there was a pulldown facility which allowed the Officer to select from several filter options e.g. all details or other specific details such as dates, entry and or exit only, passport numbers, passport country code etc.

 

The default setting was B&W, all pages, single sided, portrait, all details.  On hitting the print button, the printer spewed out all the pages of my history which included the details of all the passports (numbers) I had used to enter/exit the Kingdom during the past 29 years.

 

My friend then requested a second print out, but this time by selecting the specific passport filter option.  When this option was selected, my UK passport number (which had been entered at the start of this experiment) was automatically displayed in the filter box.  On Hitting the print button, the printout only showed my entry/exit history when I used my UK passport.

 

My friend repeated the test using my other EU country passport.  This time it was necessary to physically over type my UK passport number which appeared automatically when the passport filter was selected.  Again, the printout only provided entry/exit data relating to my other EU passport.

 

It was noted that when a new print request was made, the printer options always reverted back to the default settings.

 

My friend contacted the IT support team and described your scenario to them e.g. the printout only showing your UK passport entry/exit history.  They (IT support) advised that several years ago there was a bug within the print module which did not reset the default settings once a print had been executed.  They indicated that if someone else request a print on the same computer and did not check the pull-down filter setting they would end up with possibly the same filtered printout e.g. using the passport number that was entered at the beginning of the enquiry.  Apparently this bug has been fixed by the software supplier several years ago and hence the reason why we could not replicate the same result as you described.

 

From your description, I would suspect that this occurred before the print bug was rectified and whoever had requested a printout previously used the filter facility and the Officer checking your details did not notice the filter setting was set to current passport number only.  Hence, when the Officer having entered your UK passport number to start of his/her the enquiry then requested your history printout, the printer only showed your entry/exit history relating to your UK passport.

 

As I said in my previous post, the Immigration system is not dumb and is very capable of linking passports together.  This is a very basic requirement within the Immigration community throughout the world.  If a linking facility did not exist within the system that would mean a person who was banned from entering a country for whatever reason would only needs to get a new passport to be able to re-enter without being detected.  That just does not happen.

 

FYI.... The system used by Thai Immigration is currently used by over 40 other countries throughout the world.

 

I’m extremely confident that your two passports are linked, and I’m sorry to say that it will only be a matter of time before you are faced with further questioning as to why your spending so much time in the Kingdom.  That said, “a millionaire (£)” like yourself should have no problem explaining it to the IO.

 

Best of luck.

[bbi1]

On 2/9/2020 at 9:22 PM, 007 RED said:

OP…. Do a simple test for yourself.  Open your 2 passports at the photo page, then look at the bottom of the pages at the information typed between <<<< >>>> and see how long it takes you to spot the difference.

 

I would guess it took you about 5 seconds to identify that the 3 letters of your ‘country codes’ (USA – KOR) and your passport numbers and expiry dates are different.   Apart from that, both passports will have the same family name, first names, date of birth (in reverse order) and gender code (M or F).

 

When you hand your passport to the Immigration Officer at the port of entry, he/she places you’re the photo page onto a desktop scanner which read the information at the bottom of the page between <<<< >>>> just like you did manually.

 

So, when you presented your Korean passport on your first entry into the Kingdom the Immigration system would not have found any entry of that passport number in the database.  The system would then do a secondary check using your gender code, date of birth and names.

What happens if the 2nd country's passport has a slightly different name shown. Eg. the person has a middle name which consists of two words in the 1st passport and only the first word appears in the 2nd passport?

[bbi1]

On 2/13/2020 at 12:03 AM, 007 RED said:

Given your long term stay within the Kingdom, the problem will possibly come when the IO decides to look at your entry/exit history which involves him/her having to drill down several layers into the system.  Your history is not automatically displayed when the IO scans your passport.   In the history screen the system will display your entry/exit history in cronological order from both passports.

How many "clicks" on the computer does the IO need to do to get to the history screen after the initial scan of the passport has been done? What exactly shows up on the IO's screen once they scan your passport?

 

Also wondering how accurate those biometric scanners are. Say someone decided to scan the bottom part of their fingers the 1st time. The 2nd time they scan the top of their fingers. Surely the fingerprinting won't match up when scanning different parts of your finger.

Edited February 14, 2020 by bbi1

[bbi1]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

If your passport does not have your birth date on the second line of the machine readable code on the photo page, your passport is fake. 

 

Please see page 35 of this ICAO document:

Passport machine readable zone info.pdf 771.84 kB · 2 downloads

 

P.S. Apologies, your post was about the place of birth, not the date of birth (speed reading error on my part)

My passport doesn't have the birth date at the bottom of the passport of those two lines of code where you have all those <<<<<<< icons. Guess my government must've given me a fake passport lol

[bbi1]

1 hour ago, 007 RED said:

My friend entered my UK passport number into the computer and after being presented with my biographical details (as shown on my photo page) they ‘drilled down’ several layers to the ‘history’ facility.

What do each of these several layers of information consist of, before reaching the "history" facility?

Edited February 14, 2020 by bbi1

[moonhiker]

007 RED, I'm a bit sceptical of anonymous people on forums who happen to have a lot of direct experience with the issue being discussed, who happen to meet the right person the other day (whom they've known for a long time) who again shows them in person all the inner workings, and they take the time to type in all the detailed story and solution. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you a filthy liar, you might be indeed an honest, very knowledgeable and might be doing us all a huge service by sharing your knowledge. But I've seen people on forums that for some reason like to hang around a lot and type a lot of detailed, made up stories, for whatever reason (about which I won't even try to speculate). Some of them are more obvious, some are less so... So I'm just cautioning everyone trusting strangers on the internet too much, and getting into really long conversations over too legit-looking posts...

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

My passport doesn't have the birth date at the bottom of the passport of those two lines of code where you have all those <<<<<<< icons. Guess my government must've given me a fake passport lol

The information at the bottom of the photo page of your passport does contain your date of birth, its just not that obvious at first glance.

 

The top line will start with the letter P (indicating the travel document is a passport < a three letter Country Code of the Passport Holder (GBR = UK) the Passport Holder’s Surname << The Passport Holder’s First Name(s) which if more than one are separated by <

 

On the bottom line there is the Passport Number with an added number (called a check digit) Three letters of the Passport Holder’s Country Code (GBR = UK) Date of Birth (format = YYMMDD) plus an additional number (Called a check digit) Gender (letter M or F) Expiry Date of Passport (format = DDMMYY) plus a check digit <<<<<<<<<<<<< the last two numbers are the number of passports that have been issued to the holder by the issuing authority.

 

How that helps to put your mind to rest.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

What happens if the 2nd country's passport has a slightly different name shown. Eg. the person has a middle name which consists of two words in the 1st passport and only the first word appears in the 2nd passport?

The system initially very much relies upon matching the gender code (M or F) plus date of birth plus family name plus the first of the person's first names when making a match.  But as you indicate sometimes where the person has dual nationality the spelling of the first name can sometimes be different, for example:

English = Peter   French = Pierre

English = William  German = Wilhelm

 

In these cases the system uses what is called a fuzzy match, that is to say if the first couple of letters are the same it suggests that this may be a match.  It is not always correct and that is why when the possibilities are shown to the Immigration Officer, it is his/her decision (with the photo of the holder) to link the passports.

[Leaver]

On 2/9/2020 at 3:42 PM, murikamba said:

My question is how do I know if they have linked my passport or not?

If your fingers are "linked" on your hands, then so are your passports.  ???? 

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

What exactly shows up on the IO's screen once they scan your passport?

If the IO manually enters your passport number into the system, he/she will have displayed your biographical information identical to that shown on the photo page of your passport e.g. Passport number; Gender (M or F); Date of Birth; Family Name; First Name(s) plus the photo of you which was last taken by Immigration (e.g. at departure or when obtaining an extension to stay etc.).

 

If the IO places the photo page of your passport onto their desktop scanner the scanner will read the information at the bottom of the photo page.  Certain characters and numbers in the two lines of information are then used as a key to unlock the first level of encrypted information which held on the microchip that is embedded in your passport. 

 

The first level of encrypted information is (or should be) the same biographical information as shown on the photo page (including you photo and signature).  It is the decrypted biographical information that is then displayed on the IOs screen. 

 

You will often see the IO hold up the photo page of your passport next to the screen and look at the passport, look at the screen then look at you.

 

The photo page can be changed, but it is extremely difficult to change the encrypted data held on the micro chip.  This is how forged passports are easily discovered.

 

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

How many "clicks" on the computer does the IO need to do to get to the history screen after the initial scan of the passport has been done?

Depends upon what level of authority the Officer has.  Some IOs can only do a limited number of tasks on the system whereas other are able to access a lot more facilities.  My understanding is that most Officers will need to go into 2 screen to be able to access the history facility. 

 

Access to the facilities within the system is obtained in the same way as you, or I, do when were using say MS Internet Explorer e.g. by pull down menus.

 

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

Also wondering how accurate those biometric scanners are. Say someone decided to scan the bottom part of their fingers the 1st time. The 2nd time they scan the top of their fingers. Surely the fingerprinting won't match up when scanning different parts of your finger.

I assume by biometric scanners that you are referring to the fingerprinting facilities at Immigration arrival/departures.

 

If you do not put your fingers flat onto the scanner the IO will instruct you to do so.  They see an image of the scan on their screen and can reject it if it is not done properly.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, moonhiker said:

007 RED, I'm a bit sceptical of anonymous people on forums who happen to have a lot of direct experience with the issue being discussed, who happen to meet the right person the other day (whom they've known for a long time) who again shows them in person all the inner workings, and they take the time to type in all the detailed story and solution. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you a filthy liar, you might be indeed an honest, very knowledgeable and might be doing us all a huge service by sharing your knowledge. But I've seen people on forums that for some reason like to hang around a lot and type a lot of detailed, made up stories, for whatever reason (about which I won't even try to speculate). Some of them are more obvious, some are less so... So I'm just cautioning everyone trusting strangers on the internet too much, and getting into really long conversations over too legit-looking posts...

I have no problem with you being sceptical, or even someone implying that I may be a filthy liar.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

However, if you cast your mind back to my response (post #32) to your earlier post, I enlightened you as to my background in the field of eBoarder security.  Also, if you take the time/trouble to read through my previous posts (which I don't think for one moment that you will) the first thing that you will notice is that I'm not glues to TVF 24x7 and that 90% of my posts are directly related to eBoarder and Immigration issues for which I have considerable experience and knowledge.

 

Regarding the sudden 'friend' who I visited yesterday.  Again if you took the time/trouble to read some of my previous posts you will see that I have made mention of her on several occasions.  The family friend is actually my Thai wife's friend from when they both attended one of the very reputable universities in the UK to do their MBAs some 25 years ago.  When I met, and subsequently married my wife some 10 years ago, this person also became a very good friend of mine as well and both my wife and I meet her on a regular basis whenever we are in Bangkok.  It just so happens that she works for Thai Immigration and holds the rank of Colonel.  Her position has given me opportunities to see a side of, and insight into, Immigration that other would not normally be able to even comprehend.

 

PS... I love the ... your forgiven.