Wuhan Covid Virus - no need to be scared - yet

[AussieBob18]

I wrote this to someopne, and then decided to put my views/thoughts on record.

 

I am no expert but I have seen many times how people react in the face of danger/threat - and most of them dont react rationaly. Skepticsm has been my mantra for a long time now, and it has served me well.  Whenever I see people reacting so strongly to something, I look for the cause - most people see others running in a panic and they just join in without knowing why - the herd mentality. And then once they panic/worry, their thoughts take on a cognitive bias - which means every thing they see and hear reinforces their panic/fear. 

 

I look at Germany and I see a country that is 'bucking the trend'. In Germany there has been 13,979 confirmed cases and 42 deaths - mortality rate of 0.3% - and 60% of the positive tests were people under 60.  Why?  IMO because Germany is now  testing 160,000 tests a week - they are testing everyone.  Germany has by far the largest system to conduct the tests, and they are doing more in one week that most countries have done since the beginning.  

 

I dont know the total numbers of tests done in Germany - but I would estimate at least 400,000 have been tested (they say more than Korea but dont give a number) - that equates to an infection rate of 3.5% and a mortality rate of 0.3%

 

Korea has tested 270,000 people - and they started very early.  Korea has had 8652 positive test results - that equates to an infection rate of 3.2%.  Korea has had 94 deaths - that equates to a mortality rate of 1.1%

 

The Diamond Princess Ship was a very closed environment and had a lot of older people at a rate much higher than the normal popluation of most countries (Italy aside I think).  712 people got infected out of 3711 - an infection rate of 19.2%. 7 people died and that is a mortality rate of 0.9%.  That IMO is the worse case scenario.  20% infected and 1% die.  But that is on board a locked down ship stuck at sea - nil chance of 'social distancing' and a lot of 'shared air'.  The reality is that such an environment is a massive increase in the infection rate of any disease compared to normal society.

 

So what does that tell this skeptic? That the infection rate is not as high as the experts have been saying, and that the mortality rate is a lot lower then the experts are saying.  I reckon it will be in the end closer to the Kore and Germany outcomes.  Infection rate of 3-5% and mortality rate of 0.3-1.0%.

 

UK population of 70,000,000 and not all stuck together on a ship at sea.  

3% infection rate is 2,100,000 infected and with a mortality rate of 0.3% that is 6,300.

5% infection rate is 3,500,00 infected and with a mortality rate of 1.0% that is 35,000.

20% infection rate is 14,000,000 infected and with a mortality rate of 1.0% that is 140,000.

 

Upwards of 500,000 people die every year from seasonal flu worldwide (WHO does not have exact numbers).

I am very skeptical - but I am taking precautions just in case, and I have no plans to visit Wuhan, Italy or Korea.

But I am not scared or in a panic - this is not a highly contagious form of Ebola - if it was I would be scared.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/c0755b30-69bb-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/influenza-(seasonal)

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

 

 

[cornishcarlos]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

I am no expert but

 

That's as far as I got ????????

 

Just kidding 

[Vigilante]

The virus was never my main concern

The secondary effects are

Bearing in mind also that we are a million miles from home.

[RJRS1301]

 

 

Could be worth reading and considering

 

 

Coronavirus death toll: 10,000 killed by disease as virus takes hold around world

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-death-toll-10000-killed-by-disease-as-virus-takes-hold-around-world/news-story/fcb90cf2faed01cbc10ff49b338cc338

 

[Swimfan]

Good try but many variables missing. Like trying to compare oranges with apples 

[Orton Rd]

PJW's view

 

 

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Could be worth reading and considering

Coronavirus death toll: 10,000 killed by disease as virus takes hold around world

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-death-toll-10000-killed-by-disease-as-virus-takes-hold-around-world/news-story/fcb90cf2faed01cbc10ff49b338cc338

 

Flu kills up to 650,000 people worldwide each year - WHO number not mine - I rounded down to 500K.

 

650,000 a year equates to 54,166 every month.

 

Do the maths.

 

[AussieBob18]

7 minutes ago, Swimfan said:

Good try but many variables missing. Like trying to compare oranges with apples 

Give me the maths - show me the numbers.

[CharlieH]

Some off topic and unhelpful posts removed.

[RJRS1301]

5 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Flu kills up to 650,000 people worldwide each year - WHO number not mine - I rounded down to 500K.

 

650,000 a year equates to 54,166 every month.

 

Do the maths.

 

You cannot compare apples and oranges. Seasonal flu is totally different from this new virus

Infectivity is 2.5 times more, and building.

Please look at more than the mortality rate , overwhelmed health system, no effective prevention outside of basic hand hygiene.

I would rather act on the side of caution, and take my advice from health and scientific professionals as this evolves.

 

Please keep an open mind on this epidemic, especially when you consider poor sanitation and not many ventilators in Thailand.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

34 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

So what does that tell this skeptic? That the infection rate is not as high as the experts have been saying, and that the mortality rate is a lot lower then the experts are saying.  I reckon it will be in the end closer to the Kore and Germany outcomes.  Infection rate of 3-5% and mortality rate of 0.3-1.0%.

So your summary is that you think you are smarter than all of those experts who studied biology or medicine and worked in their fields since decades, correct?

 

There is this wonderful sentence: For all complex problems there are easy solutions - and most of them are wrong.

Enjoy your day and ignorance.

[christophe75]

Bravo sir.

 

At last someone with common sense and who is able to use his brain and who refuses to be overwhelmed by emotions.

 

The Diamond Princess was indeed a "proof". A perfect petri dish.

 

But most of the people have a memory span of a red fish.

 

Other symbolic case : Veneto, the small city in Italy.

Test of all the 3300 inhabitants... 3 % were infected... Half of those were asymptomatic.

 

That's another very important point to repeat : yes the virus is very contagious (like the common cold or the flu)... but most of the infected... will feel absolutely nothing. Or a light cold.

 

Terrible outcome for a virus that is supposed to massacre the whole planet ! A runny noise and light headache...

 

And finaly : the cognitives biases.

 

You'll always find someone to say : "yes but the virus kills young people as well ! I saw it on TV it's horrible".

 

Sure.

 

But how many in percentage ?

 

And then : "yes but we do not have enough beds ! We are going to die !"

 

Sure. But how many more ? In percentage ?

 

And then : "yes but if your grand-mother is killed by this virus you'll see it differently".

 

No. Who cares about individual tragedies ?

 

Any death is an individual tragedy. But with a total population of 7 700 000 000 (7,7 billions), 1 death, 10 deaths, 1000 deaths, 100 000 deaths, even 1 000 000 are irrelevant.

 

That's the key point : scales.

 

Like you said about ebola.

 

My personal scale is the 20 000 old people who were culled by the heatwave in summer 2003 in France (20 000 in Italy as well... Total estimated for Europe  : 70 000).

 

At that time, after this national tragedy... the french governement created....a tax. No joke. 1 day of work with no salary (salaries were paid but to the state directly)...A tax to better take care... of old people. But that's another story (albeit it helps to understand how those parasistes use so called crisis against us).

 

If the virus kills more than 20 000 people in France, I will be on alert. I will awake from my deep sleep.

 

To this day.. 450 deaths in France.

 

I know i can continue to sleep deep...

 

Meanwhile for 450 deaths (reminder : more than 600 000 people die every year in France, like in Italy) the country is locked down, the whole economy is collapsing...

 

This is the real disaster.

 

This is the mass suicide.

 

Of bodies, souls and minds.

[AussieBob18]

15 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

You cannot compare apples and oranges. Seasonal flu is totally different from this new virus

Infectivity is 2.5 times more, and building.

Please look at more than the mortality rate , overwhelmed health system, no effective prevention outside of basic hand hygiene.

I would rather act on the side of caution, and take my advice from health and scientific professionals as this evolves.

Please keep an open mind on this epidemic, especially when you consider poor sanitation and not many ventilators in Thailand.

I am skeptical about many things - including the infectivity rate.  3700 people are locked on a ship for over a month and the infection rate was only 20% - that is only one thing that makes me skeptical.

Hey - I am not saying it is a hoax and all precautions should be dropped - now way.

I am saying I am very skeptical about the seriousnesses of it and am stating that there does not need to be so much panic.  I am wearing a mask when needed - have visited Doc and been given the all clear - washing hands not shaking hands etc. But I am not panicing - and I am skeptical 

 

Imagine a world where there was no flu and up to each year 650,000 people (50+K a month) did not die because of it.   In that world this reaction is warranted.  A contagious diseas that is going to kill over 500,000 people in a year - shut it down! 

 

But we are in a world where that does happen every year and we have learned to minimise and reduce it, but we accept it.  This is a bad flu - for sure - but it aint a contagious ebola.  I think most people do not know that 50+K people die every month from flu related ilnesses.  I think most people do not know many things - and they are panicing.

 

[AussieBob18]

8 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

So your summary is that you think you are smarter than all of those experts who studied biology or medicine and worked in their fields since decades, correct?

There is this wonderful sentence: For all complex problems there are easy solutions - and most of them are wrong.

Enjoy your day and ignorance.

You are always making  insulting comments about what anyone else says that you disagree with.  You often do things like quote educated experts and yet also claim a teenage girl that hasn't been to school in years is totally correct. 

 

Thanks - and I also hope you do enjoy as much as possible your lonely ignorant life.  

[RJRS1301]

8 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

I am saying I am very skeptical about the seriousnesses of it and am stating that there does not need to be so much panic.  I am wearing a mask when needed - have visited Doc and been given the all clear - washing hands not shaking hands etc. But I am not panicing - and I am skeptical

I do not ythink the majority are panicking, I think being skeptical is fine, but research from from the experts is a good place to start, and I will continue to read and lsiten to experts, who are more knowledable than me.

 

I wondering is the mask only for pollution?

 

I am sure many know about the death rate of mainly older persons fro seasonal flu. 

Infectivity of Covid19 rate seems accurate according those who know more than me, I am not an epidemiologist or health statistican 

[AussieBob18]

13 minutes ago, christophe75 said:

Bravo sir.

 

At last someone with common sense and who is able to use his brain and who refuses to be overwhelmed by emotions.

 

The Diamond Princess was indeed a "proof". A perfect petri dish.

 

But most of the people have a memory span of a red fish.

 

Other symbolic case : Veneto, the small city in Italy.

Test of all the 3300 inhabitants... 3 % were infected... Half of those were asymptomatic.

 

That's another very important point to repeat : yes the virus is very contagious (like the common cold or the flu)... but most of the infected... will feel absolutely nothing. Or a light cold.

 

Terrible outcome for a virus that is supposed to massacre the whole planet ! A runny noise and light headache...

 

And finaly : the cognitives biases.

 

You'll always find someone to say : "yes but the virus kills young people as well ! I saw it on TV it's horrible".

 

Sure.

 

But how many in percentage ?

 

And then : "yes but we do not have enough beds ! We are going to die !"

 

Sure. But how many more ? In percentage ?

 

And then : "yes but if your grand-mother is killed by this virus you'll see it differently".

 

No. Who cares about individual tragedies ?

 

Any death is an individual tragedy. But with a total population of 7 700 000 000 (7,7 billions), 1 death, 10 deaths, 1000 deaths, 100 000 deaths, even 1 000 000 are irrelevant.

 

That's the key point : scales.

 

Like you said about ebola.

 

My personal scale is the 20 000 old people who were culled by the heatwave in summer 2003 in France (20 000 in Italy as well... Total estimated for Europe  : 70 000).

 

At that time, after this national tragedy... the french governement created....a tax. No joke. 1 day of work with no salary (salaries were paid but to the state directly)...A tax to better take care... of old people. But that's another story (albeit it helps to understand how those parasistes use so called crisis against us).

 

If the virus kills more than 20 000 people in France, I will be on alert. I will awake from my deep sleep.

 

To this day.. 450 deaths in France.

 

I know i can continue to sleep deep...

 

Meanwhile for 450 deaths (reminder : more than 600 000 people die every year in France, like in Italy) the country is locked down, the whole economy is collapsing...

 

This is the real disaster.

 

This is the mass suicide.

 

Of bodies, souls and minds.

Well said mate - the reality is that the 'experts' are saying this is going to be a diaster.  They have some evidence for that - but not enough IMO to warrant shutting down the world and causing economic ruin.  I think they have massively over-reacted.

 

There has been a few insulting responses for stating what I did (most deleted), but like yourself and many others, I am questioning what has been done.  I am not a conspiracy nut - this was not done to make the richer richer or the powerful more powerful (but they will take advatage if they can).  I believe that it was done by well meaning people trying to stop what they thought was going to be a global pandemic that would kill 20million plus like the spanish flu did.  But I am skeptical about the facts on which they based their fears - and I am seeing more and more reasons to be skeptical.

 

The whole things reminds me of the famous phrase:  'The remedy is worse than the disease'  Francis Bacon

[Niteowl45]

OP, I"m sorry to say you miss the point...entirely.....

 

Yes, generally speaking you are probably right in stating that the mortality rate is lower than has been mentioned, but you fail to understand the ramifications of the situation.

First off, while the overall rate is, as you said, lower, it's demonstrably a lot higher than that in China and Italy....

Why?

Because the disease spread very quickly, flooded the hospitals, and prevented the system from providing intensive health care to people who required it (it's estimated that between 5 and 15 % of people affected do require intensive treatment to survive).

Yes, regular flu viruses already kill a lot of people every year (mostly elderly or sick people) but they don't all die at once...or all go to the hospital at once...

The biggest issue with this virus is that it spreads very quickly and the hospitals are just nor ready to deal with it (and if the hospitals are full of sick people you might not be treated for other sicknesses\).

South East Asia and North America appear to be at the beginning of the phase that forced China to shut down all its factories and order a complete lockdown (not the joke lockdown in place in Thailand), because the alternative was having most of the country get sick at the same time and then suffer much worse consequences...our health care systems are designed to deal with normal circumstances, not a sudden pandemic.

Look at Wuhan a month ago, or Italy now... that's Thailand's future...most likely (I hope I"m wrong)... and if it can get bad in places with clear leadership, decent health care systems and social safety nets to help people weather the storm and fight the disease.... well, in a country like Thailand.... good luck dude.

 

[Canuck1966]

The main part of this is that countries that can ventilate people quickly can save more people. That seems to be the most crucial element to this.

With 25,000 intensive care beds complete with respiratory support, Germany is well equipped compared to its European neighbours. 

By contrast, France only has around 7,000 and Italy around 5,000. 

In Britain, latest NHS figures show that there are just over 4,000 critical care beds across England, while health secretary Matt Hancock said Sunday that the UK has 5,000 available ventilators. 

Ill patients in Germany have thus far been able to recover quickly.

To prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed, as they have been in Italy or eastern France, the German government has also said it planned to double intensive respiratory care beds.

 

The virus has also largely affected a younger, healthier section of the population in Germany compared to elsewhere.

"In Germany, more than 70 percent of the people identified as having been infected until now are between 20 and 50 years old," explained RKI president Lothar Wieler.

 

[richard_smith237]

The case mortality rate does seem to be about 0.3-1% of the cases, especially when considering many of the *cases may not be accounted for as symptoms are mild and those cases not reported. 

 

However, your (Op) infection rates are as yet unknown - they could be as high as Spanish flu (27%) or as high as Swine Flu (10-21%) - the outcome is as yet, unknown. All we can do is project based on past pandemics and take measures to limit this one as much as we possibly can. 

 

The disease burden of seasonal Influenza is between 290,000 and 650,000 deaths per year worldwide:

However, its not yet accurate to be able to compare the impact of an established ‘group’ of Viruses such as seasonal Influenza on a population with immunity and vaccines to the unknown impact of a Virus in its infancy to a population with no immunity and no vaccine as yet.

 

We don’t know if the Case mortality rate is 0.3% or if its 10% (Italy), I suspect the lower figure for reasons mentioned above*.  The infection rate is the greatest variable at the moment, and one we (as a global community) can have an impact on with social isolation and quarantine measures. 

 

 

I doubt the spread of the virus can be prevented. But I believe it can be delayed, medical knowledge can be garnered, vaccines can be created and distributed and medical facilities do not become overwhelmed at once. 

 

Other stats suggest 6% of cases are critical - which implies the need for hospitalisation and oxygen therapy. Thus the death rate alone is not the only fear. No one wants to come down with debilitating flu like symptoms even if all the need is bed care for two weeks. 

 

 

[Canuck1966]

45 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Flu kills up to 650,000 people worldwide each year - WHO number not mine - I rounded down to 500K.

 

650,000 a year equates to 54,166 every month.

 

Do the maths.

 

Wait til this takes hold, this grows exponentially.

Italy deaths are 600 per day & growing, that's 20,000 per year with a full quarantine in place

 

[AussieBob18]

Just now, RJRS1301 said:

I do not ythink the majority are panicking, I think being skeptical is fine, but research from from the experts is a good place to start, and I will continue to read and lsiten to experts, who are more knowledable than me.

 

I wondering is the mask only for pollution?

 

I am sure many know about the death rate of mainly older persons fro seasonal flu. 

Infectivity of Covid19 rate seems accurate according those who know more than me, I am not an epidemiologist or health statistican 

I hear you and you could be right.  The website I have been examining closely each day is the WHO site that daily lists the updates from medical professionals worldwide - they tend to be 1-2 days behind the local info - but the numbers are real:

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

 

Wear the mask not to stop getting it - wear the mask in case you have it, so you dont give it to others (every time you have a flu).

But if I was in Chiang mai or Chiang Rai I would wear the mask all the time.

 

One more IMO.  IMO the main reason it is more contagious than most flus is that a person does not show any symptoms for a while, and yet they can be spreading the infection to others. I have read where a person was tested positive and therefore was spreading it, and yet they did not show any symptons for over 14 days - which ended up being very mild.  When most people get the 'normal' flu they show symptoms withion 24-48 hours and therefore take actions - this one doesnt operate that way. 

 

[AussieBob18]

Just now, Canuck1966 said:

Wait til this takes hold, this grows exponentially.

Italy deaths are 600 per day & growing, that's 20,000 per year with a full quarantine in place

 

Maybe true - but maybe not - I remain skeptical

[AussieBob18]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

The case mortality rate does seem to be about 0.3-1% of the cases, especially when considering many of the *cases may not be accounted for as symptoms are mild and those cases not reported. 

 

However, your (Op) infection rates are as yet unknown - they could be as high as Spanish flu (27%) or as high as Swine Flu (10-21%) - the outcome is as yet, unknown. All we can do is project based on past pandemics and take measures to limit this one as much as we possibly can. 

 

The disease burden of seasonal Influenza is between 290,000 and 650,000 deaths per year worldwide:

However, its not yet accurate to be able to compare the impact of an established ‘group’ of Viruses such as seasonal Influenza on a population with immunity and vaccines to the unknown impact of a Virus in its infancy to a population with no immunity and no vaccine as yet.

 

We don’t know if the Case mortality rate is 0.3% or if its 10% (Italy), I suspect the lower figure for reasons mentioned above*.  The infection rate is the greatest variable at the moment, and one we (as a global community) can have an impact on with social isolation and quarantine measures. 

 

I doubt the spread of the virus can be prevented. But I believe it can be delayed, medical knowledge can be garnered, vaccines can be created and distributed and medical facilities do not become overwhelmed at once. 

 

Other stats suggest 6% of cases are critical - which implies the need for hospitalisation and oxygen therapy. Thus the death rate alone is not the only fear. No one wants to come down with debilitating flu like symptoms even if all the need is bed care for two weeks. 

I agree - and you are right - it is all about the real mortality and infection rates.  The actions taken worldwide have IMO been warranted for a disease that has a very high rate for both - but I am not sure this is as high as that. Especially mortality rates. If only 7 people on board the Diamond Princess ship died and the mortality rate was 1%, and the ages were mainly 60s, then surely across most of the world the mortality rate is going to be a lot lower.  Italy appears to be an anomoly.  Or will Germany and Korea be anomolies - IMO they will be the norm. 

[Lacessit]

The stats depend on which age group you are in, and I am well and truly in the most vulnerable.

Not running around like a headless chook, but I am taking precautions. Zinc and multivitamins, regular exercise ( golf and swimming ), supply of paracetamol. Maintaining social distance, limited alcohol consumption. Mask up when I leave my room, regular hand hygiene.

If it does nail me, I've had a good life.

[Chazar]

56 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Flu kills up to 650,000 people worldwide each year - WHO number not mine - I rounded down to 500K.

 

650,000 a year equates to 54,166 every month.

 

Do the maths.

 

or  drive  on  a  thai  road,  way  more  chance  of  death

[AussieBob18]

10 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

The main part of this is that countries that can ventilate people quickly can save more people. That seems to be the most crucial element to this.

With 25,000 intensive care beds complete with respiratory support, Germany is well equipped compared to its European neighbours. 

By contrast, France only has around 7,000 and Italy around 5,000. 

In Britain, latest NHS figures show that there are just over 4,000 critical care beds across England, while health secretary Matt Hancock said Sunday that the UK has 5,000 available ventilators. 

Ill patients in Germany have thus far been able to recover quickly.

To prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed, as they have been in Italy or eastern France, the German government has also said it planned to double intensive respiratory care beds.

 

The virus has also largely affected a younger, healthier section of the population in Germany compared to elsewhere.

"In Germany, more than 70 percent of the people identified as having been infected until now are between 20 and 50 years old," explained RKI president Lothar Wieler.

 

Good popints about respirators - going forward that could be a big issue.

The reason Germany has a large percentage of young people testing positive, is because they have been doing over 100K test a week (now at rate of 160K).  They are testing everyone - not just those with illness or at risk older people.  IMO the numbers from Germany will be close to the worldwide average.

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

but I am taking precautions. Zinc and multivitamins, regular exercise ( golf and swimming ), supply of paracetamol. Maintaining social distance, limited alcohol consumption. Mask up when I leave my room, regular hand hygiene.

If it does nail me, I've had a good life.

No precautions at all from me.

Wore a mask on the plane so as not to stand out, but if death comes, I'm ready.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

No precautions at all from me.

If death comes, I'm ready.

I'd like to keep going a bit longer if possible. My GF wants me to stick around, and does everything she can to convince me.

[AussieBob18]

14 minutes ago, Niteowl45 said:

OP, I"m sorry to say you miss the point...entirely.....

 

Yes, generally speaking you are probably right in stating that the mortality rate is lower than has been mentioned, but you fail to understand the ramifications of the situation.

First off, while the overall rate is, as you said, lower, it's demonstrably a lot higher than that in China and Italy....

Why?

Because the disease spread very quickly, flooded the hospitals, and prevented the system from providing intensive health care to people who required it (it's estimated that between 5 and 15 % of people affected do require intensive treatment to survive).

Yes, regular flu viruses already kill a lot of people every year (mostly elderly or sick people) but they don't all die at once...or all go to the hospital at once...

The biggest issue with this virus is that it spreads very quickly and the hospitals are just nor ready to deal with it (and if the hospitals are full of sick people you might not be treated for other sicknesses\).

South East Asia and North America appear to be at the beginning of the phase that forced China to shut down all its factories and order a complete lockdown (not the joke lockdown in place in Thailand), because the alternative was having most of the country get sick at the same time and then suffer much worse consequences...our health care systems are designed to deal with normal circumstances, not a sudden pandemic.

Look at Wuhan a month ago, or Italy now... that's Thailand's future...most likely (I hope I"m wrong)... and if it can get bad in places with clear leadership, decent health care systems and social safety nets to help people weather the storm and fight the disease.... well, in a country like Thailand.... good luck dude.

 

Good points - but dont forget that much of that sudden onslaught of medical needs was because of the Govts ramping things up and declaring pandemic and national emergenices in order to try and shut the infection down.  

Yes it does spread quickly - but so does the seasonal flu. 3700 people locked together on a ship at seas for over a month - 20% infection rate.

I too worry about Thailand - that Thailand had the same number of infected people on day 1 as Korea and Japan, and yet suddenly the numbers slowed in comparison to all others with infected people, and yet they did not close the borders and go inot early lockdowns, makes me very skeptical of the true numbers. 

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

No precautions at all from me.

Wore a mask on the plane so as not to stand out, but if death comes, I'm ready.

Maybe not go that far calm  ????    But good to see someone relaxed about.  Go talk to the stock markets and Govts will you - they need to calm down too.