Covid19 - no need to panic - still

[AussieBob18]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Actually it's even worse than that, some of them are going to hate you if you don't panic.

Totalitarianism is just behind the corner, in the name of "science".

..And i thought that the middle age was over, boy, i was wrong.

Yes mate - it is still there - inside many.

 

One day I was in a lift that got to the ground but didnt open the doors, it then proceeded to go to the top floor and then back down again and again didnt open the doors, it then went up and down another time - on the third occasion the doors opened on the ground floor. I was calm (I knew about lift safety devices I guess), but everyone else panicked.  The men became aggressive and the women started screaming and crying.  The phone didnt work, but I had most of them calmed down as it came back down the second time, but when it started to go back up again, the men became aggressive towards me, and the women started screaming again. I just shut up and put my hands up and gave up. When it came down the third time and the doors opened they all ran out fast - some men didnt even wait for the women. I stayed and blocked the doors so no one else would get into the lift, and got someone to go and call the building superviser, who came quickly and locked it off.  People are senseless when they panic - they cannot think - they cannot be reasoned with - and they dont care about others.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

People are senseless when they panic - they cannot think - they cannot be reasoned with - and they dont care about others.

Agree, you can see that on this Forum too.

The ones who are in favour of never-ending lock downs don't care about all the millions who can't make a living, but they are obviously wrong.

When many millions of people will get really hungry and desperate, nobody will be safe anymore

[FarFlungFalang]

12 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

OK for the Olympics I guess. I'll admit the lesser Aussie athlete won that gold medal in skating when he 'did a Badbury' - but I did cheer him over the line - to win you gotta finish ????

 

How can he be the lesser athlete if he made it to the finals won the gold medal?Doesn't make sense.If you haven't read his book I can recommend it,it's a great read.Sure he had some luck that day but he wasn't a lesser athlete.I think anyone who got into that race deserved to win.

[Logosone]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Agree, you can see that on this Forum too.

The ones who are in favour of never-ending lock downs don't care about all the millions who can't make a living, but they are obviously wrong.

When many millions of people will get really hungry and desperate, nobody will be safe anymore

Oh yes, you could see it here, hysteric fear-filled aggression, panic and overreaction were illustrated here as they were in society at large. People denounced their neighbours for breaking lockdowns, women attacked people physically over social distancing concerns (the irony) and the mask Nazi has become ubiquitous in Thailand. One online page Spotlight Thailand used the mask issue to give free reign to their virulent hatred of foreigners, and ask Thais to hunt them down with slingshots. Many responded by getting slingshots. In Europe and the US Asians were attacked.

 

This virus has set us back many years. We will have to grow our own herbs and tomatos, trust in infrastructure and government will never be the same. Money earmarked for diseases will be diverted to other things. Travel will be more cumbersome and after the initial discounts to lure back customers more expensive. Nationalism and xenophobia will increase.

 

I trust though that we can overcome these issues, like we overcame the panic filled hysterics, because we remember how things can be. And there will be some good things that come out of this pandemic. 

[AussieBob18]

9 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

How can he be the lesser athlete if he made it to the finals won the gold medal?Doesn't make sense.If you haven't read his book I can recommend it,it's a great read.Sure he had some luck that day but he wasn't a lesser athlete.I think anyone who got into that race deserved to win.

I have only read parts as shown elsewhere - but please dont think I was degrading his achievement.  Never before had an Aussie even made a final for a singles event. But he was the best skater in the Aussie bronze medal team before.  What he did in the heats to make the final (watched them of course) was outstanding.  But to think he was one of the better skaters in the final is  wrong.  His best chance was a bronze medal, if things worked out OK for him, and he played it smart, hoping they would.  He knew they were very aggressive and that his best bet was to have some energy left for a charge up the inside at the end, if things panned out - and didnt they pan out ???? 

 

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Logosone said:

I trust though that we can overcome these issues, like we overcame the panic filled hysterics, because we remember how things can be. And there will be some good things that come out of this pandemic. 

I like your optimism, and for many people who are panicking, there are as many who are waking up.

Yesterday i read an open letter from an Italian medics association posted on social media; basically some doctors are starting to smell the coffee, so to speak, they start to realise the enormity of the economic disaster, and they are taking distance from the draconian measures imposed by the government.

[AussieBob18]

21 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Agree, you can see that on this Forum too.

The ones who are in favour of never-ending lock downs don't care about all the millions who can't make a living, but they are obviously wrong.

When many millions of people will get really hungry and desperate, nobody will be safe anymore

I responded as such to some bloke living in his village who was ignoring reality - if they need food and are starving his house will become a target for sure. Probably not for the people in his village, but definitely for others who are desperate/starving. His response was more 'correct' rubbish about compliance - just ignorant of real life I guess - like so many others.

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

I responded as such to some bloke living in his village who was ignoring reality - if they need food and are starving his house will become a target for sure. Probably not for the people in his village, but definitely for others who are desperate/starving. His response was more 'correct' rubbish about compliance - just ignorant of real life I guess - like so many others.

It's happening everywhere.

Those who can enjoy a comfortable house with a spacious garden, and a monthly check deposited in their bank, have the nerve of criticise the poor masses who are, or will be soon starving in their shacks.

Myopic, to say the least.

[Logosone]

20 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I like your optimism, and for many people who are panicking, there are as many who are waking up.

Yesterday i read an open letter from an Italian medics association posted on social media; basically some doctors are starting to smell the coffee, so to speak, they start to realise the enormity of the economic disaster, and they are taking distance from the draconian measures imposed by the government.

A lot of people have woken up to understand that the economic cost of the lockdowns was not justified by the results, that they were overreactions. From the Guardian to the Daily Mail, to discussions in Germany and protests in the US, you can see that people understand that the governments have overreacted.

 

There will be cleaning up so to speak, having to deal with the fallout of this virus. Airlines will consolidate, there will be less airlines, so less competition, so higher prices. Eventually people may restart low cost air travel perhaps.

 

But there will be good things coming out of this crisis. No doubt an acceleration of alternatives to cash will be welcomed which can make things easier, this was already underway and with this virus that technology will get a big boost. We will get a lot of cheap travel and hotel deals in the short term, even as travel will become more expensive later. Delivery of shopping will no longer be treated as a possibility but a necessity.

 

The biggest benefit maybe though that people will no longer be as afraid of wars, but will try and focus resources to dealing with virus pandemics, as opposed to military hardware. We spent way too much on military nonsense, and that precious money will no doubt go into the health systems. Our health systems will be massively ramped up and be of better quality.

 

Vile xenophobic people like those behind Spotlight Thailand have been exposed and their website restricted, everyone knows who they are.

 

I came to understand one thing, that 15% to 40% of Thais have Chinese ancestry. I wondered why Anutin was attacking Europeans, until I understood he has Chinese heritage. I wondered why the guy behind Spotlight Thailand hated Europeans so, until I understood he has Chinese heritage. So those of Chinese heritage in Thailand were massively embarassed that this virus came from China, and tried to shift attention to European spreaders of the virus, to divert attention away from Chinese causing the spread of the virus initially. The tremendous influence of Chinese Thai in Thailand was not clear to me and I now understood this completely.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Logosone

[chessman]

About the claim of herd immunity in Stockholm by May.

 

report from Today’s press conference. Oops

 

The Public Health Agency has withdrawn its report on the model of the coronavirus spread in Stockholm, which it shared yesterday at the daily press conference. The report had suggested that by May 1st, a third of Stockholm's population would have contracted the coronavirus.

On its Twitter account, the agency wrote: "We have discovered an error in the report and the report authors are currently going through the material again. We will republish the report as soon as it is ready". They said they would share more information about the nature of the error once this was done.

The report said that there were around 1,000 times as many people infected by the coronavirus in Sweden as the number of confirmed cases, a figure that was questioned by Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten at the press conference as it did not match up with the rest of the report's figures. There are currently over 15,000 confirmed cases of the virus in Sweden, and 1,000 times this figure would amount to more than the country's entire population.

Asked by a reporter from Ekot what the error was, state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said that an updated version of the report would be ready by tomorrow (April 23rd). 

This news comes as another report on the spread of the coronavirus in Stockholm -- this one by researchers at Karolinska University Hospital and the Karolinska Institute -- has also been withdrawn by its authors. 

That report suggested that at least 11 out of 100 had developed antibodies, with the real figure believed to be higher. At the time of publication, clinical microbiologist Jan Albert said the research was still at an early stage, saying: "You cannot draw conclusions about the exact percentages, but we know that those 11 percent have had (the coronavirus). It is not enough for a research report, but too important to keep under wraps."

Today Albert told SVT that the researchers were "not confident" about their results.

 

from https://www.thelocal.se/20200310/timeline-how-the-coronavirus-has-developed-in-sweden

 

 

 

 

[Sujo]

12 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

I have only read parts as shown elsewhere - but please dont think I was degrading his achievement.  Never before had an Aussie even made a final for a singles event. But he was the best skater in the Aussie bronze medal team before.  What he did in the heats to make the final (watched them of course) was outstanding.  But to think he was one of the better skaters in the final is  wrong.  His best chance was a bronze medal, if things worked out OK for him, and he played it smart, hoping they would.  He knew they were very aggressive and that his best bet was to have some energy left for a charge up the inside at the end, if things panned out - and didnt they pan out ???? 

 

I know steve, or ysed to know him but havent seen him in many many years. Very nice guy. When in europe training for the olympics he fell and another skater ran over his leg severing an artery. Nearly killed him. So a remarkable recovery just to get himself into a pisition to win.

 

He also broke his neck in another incident.

 

Luck is when practice meets opportunity.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Sujo

[FarFlungFalang]

12 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

I have only read parts as shown elsewhere - but please dont think I was degrading his achievement.  Never before had an Aussie even made a final for a singles event. But he was the best skater in the Aussie bronze medal team before.  What he did in the heats to make the final (watched them of course) was outstanding.  But to think he was one of the better skaters in the final is  wrong.  His best chance was a bronze medal, if things worked out OK for him, and he played it smart, hoping they would.  He knew they were very aggressive and that his best bet was to have some energy left for a charge up the inside at the end, if things panned out - and didnt they pan out ???? 

 

He was dead on his feet in the finals and I didn't think you were disrespecting him and unfortunately I didn't get to watch it,so I think you're lucky to have seen it.What he did just to get to the heats was an achievement in it's self.A terrific read especially now there's b.ugger all else to do.

[AussieBob18]

16 hours ago, Sujo said:

I know steve, or ysed to know him but havent seen him in many many years. Very nice guy. When in europe training for the olympics he fell and another skater ran over his leg severing an artery. Nearly killed him. So a remarkable recovery just to get himself into a pisition to win.

He also broke his neck in another incident.

Luck is when practice meets opportunity.

I heard he had recovered from a serious leg injury to make the Olympics again - didnt know about the broken neck. Indeed - both luck and success.  I got to know a few cricketers in Australia - they all had some issues to overcome - nobody makes it to the top international level without some problems. 

But what Steve did was remarkable - and he even has an Aussie slang now: 'Doing a Bradbury'. 

[cornishcarlos]

4 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

nobody makes it to the top international level without some problems. 

 

nobody makes it to the top international level without some problems. sandpaper..

 

Joke ???? 

 

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

nobody makes it to the top international level without some problems. sandpaper..

Joke ???? 

Fair enough. 

 

Or dirt in their pockets ????

 

But we severely punish cheaters who are caught. Aust is like NZ at Rugby - it aint a life or death thing - it is far more serious than that - and getting caught cheating is a mortal sin. 

[Logosone]

17 hours ago, chessman said:

About the claim of herd immunity in Stockholm by May.

 

report from Today’s press conference. Oops

 

The Public Health Agency has withdrawn its report on the model of the coronavirus spread in Stockholm, which it shared yesterday at the daily press conference. The report had suggested that by May 1st, a third of Stockholm's population would have contracted the coronavirus.

On its Twitter account, the agency wrote: "We have discovered an error in the report and the report authors are currently going through the material again. We will republish the report as soon as it is ready". They said they would share more information about the nature of the error once this was done.

The report said that there were around 1,000 times as many people infected by the coronavirus in Sweden as the number of confirmed cases, a figure that was questioned by Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten at the press conference as it did not match up with the rest of the report's figures. There are currently over 15,000 confirmed cases of the virus in Sweden, and 1,000 times this figure would amount to more than the country's entire population.

Asked by a reporter from Ekot what the error was, state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said that an updated version of the report would be ready by tomorrow (April 23rd). 

This news comes as another report on the spread of the coronavirus in Stockholm -- this one by researchers at Karolinska University Hospital and the Karolinska Institute -- has also been withdrawn by its authors. 

That report suggested that at least 11 out of 100 had developed antibodies, with the real figure believed to be higher. At the time of publication, clinical microbiologist Jan Albert said the research was still at an early stage, saying: "You cannot draw conclusions about the exact percentages, but we know that those 11 percent have had (the coronavirus). It is not enough for a research report, but too important to keep under wraps."

Today Albert told SVT that the researchers were "not confident" about their results.

 

from https://www.thelocal.se/20200310/timeline-how-the-coronavirus-has-developed-in-sweden

 

 

 

 

From CDC to PHE in England, to the RKI in Germany and now the Swedish PH these national health authorities keep embarassing themselves.

 

However, you probably should have copied Dr Tegnell's reply as well:

 

"But Tegnell said that two of the report's main conclusions -- that the peak would have been reached around April 15th, and that by May 1st around a third of Stockholmers would have been infected -- were not affected by the error."

 

So Sweden still safe and sound.

[chessman]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

So Sweden still safe and sound.

We’ll see. The deaths yesterday in Sweden are higher (as a percentage of the population) than any single day in the UK, Italy or Spain. They were the day before yesterday too. And the peak there (probably) hasn’t been reached yet. Sweden are now in the top 10 of countries in terms of deaths per million of population - 7th if you only count countries with a large population. They are also, along with Belgium, the country that is rising fastest if you use this statistic.

 

they also have many factors that would give them an advantage in the battle again this virus. A good healthcare system and low population density. A high Percentage of people who already worked from home and a very high percentage of ‘single’ households, (about 40%). Their Nordic neighbours that have similar qualities all have much lower amounts of cases and (especially) deaths. But Sweden....

[Logosone]

14 minutes ago, chessman said:

We’ll see. The deaths yesterday in Sweden are higher (as a percentage of the population) than any single day in the UK, Italy or Spain. They were the day before yesterday too. And the peak there (probably) hasn’t been reached yet. Sweden are now in the top 10 of countries in terms of deaths per million of population - 7th if you only count countries with a large population. They are also, along with Belgium, the country that is rising fastest if you use this statistic.

 

they also have many factors that would give them an advantage in the battle again this virus. A good healthcare system and low population density. A high Percentage of people who already worked from home and a very high percentage of ‘single’ households, (about 40%). Their Nordic neighbours that have similar qualities all have much lower amounts of cases and (especially) deaths. But Sweden....

Actually new deaths in Sweden, yesterday 22 April 2020, were a grand total of, wait for it: five.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Sweden#cite_note-177

 

The UK, Italy or Spain will be dreaming of these figures.

 

Of course if you try to do it by population that will always skew things against Sweden because the UK has a higher population and Sweden has a tiny population.

 

However, Sweden had 5 new deaths yesterday. A total of 1937 deaths.

 

Dr Tegnell has clarified that 15 April saw the peak of the outbreak, something very strongly supported by the new case figures.

 

33% of people in Stockholm would be infected at the end of this month, opening the path to considerable immunity. They are starting to increase testing.

 

If you are waiting for a Covid19 apocalypse in Sweden you can wait for a very long time. 

 

It just won't happen.

 

Sure, Norway has done even better, but because they did huge amounts of testing, which Sweden didn't do so far. Not because Norway has UK style social distancing.

 

Even if you take deaths per capita, which massively skews the picture against small population countries and distorts the real picture, Sweden has 173 deaths PER MILLION of population. Since Sweden has 10 million inhabitants that gives you a total mortality rate in Sweden of 0.019 percent.

 

Sweden is absolutely right not to close its country for a virus that killed 0.019 percent of its population, don't' you think?

 

A shame other countries were not that sensible.

[chessman]

58 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Actually new deaths in Sweden, yesterday 22 April 2020, were a grand total of, wait for it: five.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Sweden#cite_note-177

172 reported new deaths yesterday. That is the the much more important statistic, as you know.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

The number '5' will be adjusted to a  much higher total in the next few days and is only so low because of a lag in reporting , as you know.

 

You think these kind of comparisons skew against Sweden because of it's tiny population? Ridiculous! More than 10 million people there.

 

You seem very dogmatic with this, Sweden must be correct, the UK must have been wrong...

 

The honest answer is we don't know. If Sweden had taken a different path it would very likely have figures similar to Denmark, Norway and Finland.

 

Will the economy in Sweden be in significantly better shape than the other Nordic counties when this is over? We don't know

Will Sweden do better when/if there is a second wave because people there have more immunity? We don't know.

 

You are too sure of yourself

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

18 hours ago, chessman said:

172 reported new deaths yesterday. That is the the much more important statistic, as you know.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

The number '5' will be adjusted to a  much higher total in the next few days and is only so low because of a lag in reporting , as you know.

 

You think these kind of comparisons skew against Sweden because of it's tiny population? Ridiculous! More than 10 million people there.

 

You seem very dogmatic with this, Sweden must be correct, the UK must have been wrong...

 

The honest answer is we don't know. If Sweden had taken a different path it would very likely have figures similar to Denmark, Norway and Finland.

 

Will the economy in Sweden be in significantly better shape than the other Nordic counties when this is over? We don't know

Will Sweden do better when/if there is a second wave because people there have more immunity? We don't know.

 

You are too sure of yourself

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course he is very dogmatic about this as Sweden feeds into his echo chamber of the 'best' way to do this i.e. no self-isolation and let the chips fall as they may. If Sweden starts showing higher levels of contagion and lots of deaths then obviously the correct way was self-isolation and a full week of forcing his opinion on us TV readers vwill have to be followed by a 'I'm soooo sorry. I got this wrong. Self-isolation was the correct thing to do and I'll take back everything I said'. (which is obviously going to happen)

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/21/2020 at 3:48 PM, smutcakes said:

As a nurse i am sure you did. But your knowledge as a lowly nurse will be well behind the many renowned virologists and pandemic experts in this forum.

Indeed. As a mere nurse I was always regarded as nothing more than a pair of hands to carry out the policies of our lords and masters and be a lacky of the almighty Drs, who's shoes I was not fit to kiss.

All those years of study were as nothing when it came to who knew anything. Even to the patients who's lives we saved we were as nothing compared to the Drs that they had seen for a few minutes a day.

[thaibeachlovers]

54 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Of course he is very dogmatic about this as Sweden feeds into his echo chamber of the 'best' way to do this i.e. no self-isolation and let the chips fall as they may. If Sweden starts showing higher levels of contagion and lots of deaths then obviously the correct way was self-isolation and a full week of forcing his opinion on us TV readers vwill have to be followed by a 'I'm soooo sorry. I got this wrong. Self-isolation was the correct thing to do and I'll take back everything I said'. (which is obviously going to happen)

Perhaps we can wait and see then. This too will end.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Logosone said:

A shame other countries were not that sensible.

The greatest tragedy from Corona will come after people stop dying from it and start dying of poverty related issues instead. There will be more lives lost and irreparably damaged from lockdown, IMO, than from the virus.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:53 PM, AussieBob18 said:

Yes mate - it is still there - inside many.

 

One day I was in a lift that got to the ground but didnt open the doors, it then proceeded to go to the top floor and then back down again and again didnt open the doors, it then went up and down another time - on the third occasion the doors opened on the ground floor. I was calm (I knew about lift safety devices I guess), but everyone else panicked.  The men became aggressive and the women started screaming and crying.  The phone didnt work, but I had most of them calmed down as it came back down the second time, but when it started to go back up again, the men became aggressive towards me, and the women started screaming again. I just shut up and put my hands up and gave up. When it came down the third time and the doors opened they all ran out fast - some men didnt even wait for the women. I stayed and blocked the doors so no one else would get into the lift, and got someone to go and call the building superviser, who came quickly and locked it off.  People are senseless when they panic - they cannot think - they cannot be reasoned with - and they dont care about others.

At it's most basic human instinct, like in every species is to survive. Panic is a survival mode reaction. Civilization is being able to overcome our base selves and think about other people when .

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:01 PM, mauGR1 said:

Agree, you can see that on this Forum too.

The ones who are in favour of never-ending lock downs don't care about all the millions who can't make a living, but they are obviously wrong.

When many millions of people will get really hungry and desperate, nobody will be safe anymore

They probably don't care about those that will suffer because they are "I'm all right Jacks". Mainly retired and well financed it doesn't affect them, and some even like it because the tourists went away and it's quiet.

[Sujo]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The greatest tragedy from Corona will come after people stop dying from it and start dying of poverty related issues instead. There will be more lives lost and irreparably damaged from lockdown, IMO, than from the virus.

I will give the herd mentality a miss.

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-australia-experts-warn-herd-immunity-is-a-myth/news-story/1255abc9bffc3d87183492eff02e6c28

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There will be more lives lost and irreparably damaged from lockdown, IMO, than from the virus.

Actually the economic disaster will be made worse by the restriction of freedoms which we used to consider normal.

How the masses will react to be big changes that we are facing, will be extremely interesting.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:12 PM, Logosone said:

there will be some good things that come out of this pandemic. 

I agree. If it destroys mass air tourism that will be, IMO a very good thing. Paradise Thailand was lost in the mad rush to cater for the hordes.

NZ has become too expensive for locals to travel within it so they go overseas where the $ buys more. Local tourism operators are going to have to get cheaper or go out of business.

If it punishes the oil industry I can't shed tears over that.

If mass immigration ends and locals have to work instead of thinking of the dole as a career that would be quite beneficial.

[chessman]

3 minutes ago, Sujo said:

I will give the herd mentality a miss.

It's going to be bad for any country that reaches it.

 

No country is actually aiming for herd immunity but some countries are taking less preventative measures and are less worried about the consequences of reaching it than others.

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They probably don't care about those that will suffer because they are "I'm all right Jacks". Mainly retired and well financed it doesn't affect them, and some even like it because the tourists went away and it's quiet.

I'm sorry for them too, soon or later the loss of freedom of the majority will affect them too, one way or another.