Follow the science....

[Throatwobbler]

10 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Last time i checked heart disease was not contagious.  200K have died in 3 months with unprecedented global lockdowns in place. It is nothing like flu. Without lockdowns it appeared as if the infection rate was going to rise exponteially and you would assume death toll as well. 

 

I am not denying serious consideration and steps need to be taken to ease restrictions and get things moving again but your flippant attitude to the disease and comparoing it to flu is clearly nonsense as you would see from the deaths many countries have experienced. 

 

Comparing it to road fatalities and heart disease is not even worth commenting on which you should well know.

You are wasting your time on Ubon. I do not know how many people have tried to expalin this to him but it is a waste of time. He continues to harp on about flu without being aware that the deaths from Covid overtook a years worth of death from flu in 2 months. . I am sure he is a person who thinks there were 18 covids before this one.

[Throatwobbler]

I wish that those who keep going on about it is not too bad were given their own island to play on. Of course they will get no expert medical attention as they have shown on here that they know more than all the doctors so they can heal themselves. Then we can let Darwin run it's course and thin the herd. One good thing would be that the average IQ of TVF users would be raised.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Throatwobbler

[lkv]

6 hours ago, chessman said:

that is the argument these guys are making about Sweden and Norway. 

And Sweden's argument is, over the course of the next 12 months, as various economies remove restrictions, they will catch up with the number of dead.

 

Also take into account that in Sweden's reported number, deaths in care homes are included, whereas many countries only count hospital deaths. And the deaths in care homes should account for 40% of the total.

 

And on top of that, guess what. They did not f##k their economy up.

Edited April 30, 2020 by lkv

[yuyiinthesky]

1 hour ago, Throatwobbler said:

I wish that those who keep going on about it is not too bad were given their own island to play on. Of course they will get no expert medical attention as they have shown on here that they know more than all the doctors so they can heal themselves. Then we can let Darwin run it's course and thin the herd. One good thing would be that the average IQ of TVF users would be raised.

Excellent Idea!

But don't forget that Elon Musk is putting satellites all around the globe for full internet coverage, so we will continue to be online ???? 

 

Also, since bars and gyms and restaurants will be open there, most of the Thais might join us there, especially the lovely girls from your favorite (now closed) bar.

Edited April 30, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Skallywag said:

es, in the future 65 - 80 year olds going to a Rolling Stones concert to relive their youth are idiots unnecessarily risking their health,  science or government cannot save them.   

If you think us oldies are going to hide in our rooms for the rest of our lives you can stick that idea. We are going to have a life, despite what some people think we should do.

Oldies that have had a hard life are not gutless wonders believing every bit of propaganda put out by governments.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Last time i checked heart disease was not contagious.  200K have died in 3 months with unprecedented global lockdowns in place. It is nothing like flu. Without lockdowns it appeared as if the infection rate was going to rise exponteially and you would assume death toll as well. 

 

I am not denying serious consideration and steps need to be taken to ease restrictions and get things moving again but your flippant attitude to the disease and comparoing it to flu is clearly nonsense as you would see from the deaths many countries have experienced. 

 

Comparing it to road fatalities and heart disease is not even worth commenting on which you should well know.

7 BILLION people on the planet and 200k deaths is enough to destroy countless lives from the poverty to come!

IMO the only reason western governments care is because it's happening to us. If it was 200k third world people in some country wracked by civil war and Ebola I doubt they'd do anything, other than say how awful it was.

 

With no immunity, the only way to get back to "normal" is to allow herd immunity to establish. Lockdowns only limit the numbers at one time, and soon as people are let out again expect second, and subsequent waves. Can't keep people locked up for a year till a safe vaccine developed.

 

BTW, Corona is never going away, but once herd immunity is established it will be just another flu.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Logosone said:

Just to track for virus purposes.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

[smutcakes]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

7 BILLION people on the planet and 200k deaths is enough to destroy countless lives from the poverty to come!

IMO the only reason western governments care is because it's happening to us. If it was 200k third world people in some country wracked by civil war and Ebola I doubt they'd do anything, other than say how awful it was.

 

With no immunity, the only way to get back to "normal" is to allow herd immunity to establish. Lockdowns only limit the numbers at one time, and soon as people are let out again expect second, and subsequent waves. Can't keep people locked up for a year till a safe vaccine developed.

 

BTW, Corona is never going away, but once herd immunity is established it will be just another flu.

 

From what i have read that most acknowledge that this is the case re herd immunity, (or vaccine) however it has to be built up slowly rather than just letting everyone get on with it from the off as quickly all health care systems will be overwhelmed. Unless of course you are advocating to accept that and simply not try to save many.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, jimmybcool said:

Guess we need to determine how damaging the economic ruin is in comparison to how many lives are actually saved by shutting down.

For argument's sake lets say there came a disease that killed mainly old people that were no longer contributing to society economically ( and were actually taking vast sums of money in pension and health costs but giving little back ), but the only way to save most of them was to ruin the economy and destroy many, many young people's lives with poverty for possibly their entire lives.

What would YOU do?

 

I've already said that I'm for the Swedish solution.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

From what i have read that most acknowledge that this is the case re herd immunity, (or vaccine) however it has to be built up slowly rather than just letting everyone get on with it from the off as quickly all health care systems will be overwhelmed. Unless of course you are advocating to accept that and simply not try to save many.

Are hospitals overwhelmed in Sweden? I think that answers that.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Probably we disagree with this point.

"The leaders are stupid" theory looks very convenient to me. And if it was the opposite ?

We'd all be like Sweden.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

So basically we have "scientific advisors" in charge.

Problem is that it's apparently only scientific advisors that conform to the lockdown theory that are in charge.

[smutcakes]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are hospitals overwhelmed in Sweden? I think that answers that.

Not that i have seen, but they clearly have been in other countries.

 

Sweden have a very low population density and an educated/cultured population. Using them as a guide when you compare them to other countries who have massive swathes of people who live in tight proximity to each other with no other means to escape is not a good representation of how things would transpire throughout the world.

 

Other countries systems arguably were overwhelmed, even with widespread lock downs.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Problem is that it's apparently only scientific advisors that conform to the lockdown theory that are in charge.

Yes, that's why i used the inverted commas.

[steelepulse]

4 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Not that i have seen, but they clearly have been in other countries.

 

Sweden have a very low population density and an educated/cultured population. Using them as a guide when you compare them to other countries who have massive swathes of people who live in tight proximity to each other with no other means to escape is not a good representation of how things would transpire throughout the world.

 

Other countries systems arguably were overwhelmed, even with widespread lock downs.

Any yet, now WHO has done a 180 and is lauding the Swedish model.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds-sweden-as-model-for-resisting-coronavirus-lockdown/

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

Look at all the Aussies signing up for the Trace my movement and contacts App !! 

Because they are told that is the quickest way to relax restrictions !!!

Desperate people will believe anything that appears to help them, even if it's not necessarily the truth. There is no shortage of desperate people out there now.

[smutcakes]

1 minute ago, steelepulse said:

Any yet, now WHO has done a 180 and is lauding the Swedish model.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds-sweden-as-model-for-resisting-coronavirus-lockdown/

 

I have never criticized Sweden's approach, it appears to be working for them thus far. Does not mean it would work everywhere. They have a very low population density, educated population who are following good guidance.

 

Have a look back at some commenting on this thread what they have been saying about the WHO being clueless etc. Will they still say that, or will they quietly forget that view and decide that the WHO are very knowledgeable....

 

The whole country has a population of 10 million which is less than many cities.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Have a look back at some commenting on this thread what they have been saying about the WHO being clueless etc. Will they still say that, or will they quietly forget that view and decide that the WHO are very knowledgeable....

 

Clueless they are not.

How would they be able to dictate the narrative to the mainstream media, if they were clueless.

Masters, they are masters

[Peter Denis]

11 hours ago, chessman said:

Imagine you are buying a car and you ask about the safety record of two similar cars. The dealer says ‘we sold 5.3 million of this car and 207 people have been killed in fatal accidents’. Then you ask about the similar car and the dealer says “we sold 10.2 million of this car and 2586 people have been killed in fatal accidents”. You are surprised at the difference and suggest the 1st car is much safer. The dealer shakes his head and states that there is basically no difference.

 

that is the argument these guys are making about Sweden and Norway. 

Yes, the Norway and Sweden car accident analogy makes it clear that there IS a difference in results between the Covid-19 approach of these 2 nations.

And so I was also a bit sceptical that dr Erickson in the video stated that the 6-times higher deaths per capita in Sweden were 'statistically insignificant'.  In my opinion the case he advocated was strong and sensible enough not to need that Norway-Sweden comparison.

That being said, there are some other factors to be taken into consideration that explain why the Sweden-approach might be the better one after all:

- The method of collecting data on the covid-19 related deaths is different (in Sweden also deaths in care-houses are counted and not only in hospitals);

- Due to their more relaxed approach, more people have been infected earlier and so the Swedish death-figures are ahead of countries that practiced strict social distancing, and these will probably face a spike in deaths again once they start opening up again;

- Sweden does not suffer the detrimental secondary effects of the lock-down in the same degree that other countries are facing (depressions and illnesses of the 'home prisoners', an economy in shambles with large parts of the population unemployed and scratching to make ends meet).

- Sweden - despite (or maybe partially because of) its approach - is far from the Worst Student in the class, but seems to have practiced a sensible approach to the crisis instead of the panick football we see in other countries.

Imo other countries could learn a lot of the Swedish approach, and over time it will become clear whether they were correct from the start.  I have strong reasons to believe they are...

 

[cornishcarlos]

29 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Have a look back at some commenting on this thread what they have been saying about the WHO being clueless etc. Will they still say that, or will they quietly forget that view and decide that the WHO are very knowledgeable....

 

The WHO just announce what has already happened...

U turns all the way but maybe not entirely their own doing ??

 

No doubting they have some very knowledgeable folk onboard but who pays the WHO to say what they do (catchy little number)

Does this latest U turn make them knowledgeable, no it just goes to show that they have to agree with something that is possibly working better than other options.

[smutcakes]

4 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Yes, the Norway and Sweden car accident analogy makes it clear that there IS a difference in results between the Covid-19 approach of these 2 nations.

And so I was also a bit sceptical that dr Erickson in the video stated that the 6-times higher deaths per capita in Sweden were 'statistically insignificant'.  In my opinion the case he advocated was strong and sensible enough not to need that Norway-Sweden comparison.

That being said, there are some other factors to be taken into consideration that explain why the Sweden-approach might be the better one after all:

- The method of collecting data on the covid-19 related deaths is different (in Sweden also deaths in care-houses are counted and not only in hospitals);

- Due to their more relaxed approach, more people have been infected earlier and so the Swedish death-figures are ahead of countries that practiced strict social distancing, and these will probably face a spike in deaths again once they start opening up again;

- Sweden does not suffer the detrimental secondary effects of the lock-down in the same degree that other countries are facing (depressions and illnesses of the 'home prisoners', an economy in shambles with large parts of the population unemployed and scratching to make ends meet).

- Sweden - despite (or maybe partially because of) its approach - is far from the Worst Student in the class, but seems to have practiced a sensible approach to the crisis instead of the panick football we see in other countries.

Imo other countries could learn a lot of the Swedish approach, and over time it will become clear whether they were correct from the start.  I have strong reasons to believe they are...

 

 

Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any actual factual information about the bits in bold, particularly the 1st one, or you are making an assumption based on your opinion?

 

Talking of depression, Sweden has one of the high suicide rates in Europe.

[rumak]

54 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

 

From what i have read that most acknowledge that this is the case re herd immunity, (or vaccine) however it has to be built up slowly rather than just letting everyone get on with it from the off as quickly all health care systems will be overwhelmed. Unless of course you are advocating to accept that and simply not try to save many.

Are hospitals overwhelmed in Sweden? I think that answers that.

Instead of spending all their time figuring out how to fabricate trillions of dollars to prop up the stock market.............  why didn't they quickly set up treatment centers that could help those who had serious symptoms .   China can put up a city in 2 weeks !   US and other western govts are all about making political arguments to further their own careers.  

As for the "vast numbers of people that will get sick".......  how many of those are because they

are very unhealthy individuals due to their OWN health habits ? 

https://health.gov/our-work/food-nutrition/2015-2020-dietary-guidelines/guidelines/message

 

"One of our Government’s most important responsibilities is to protect the health of the American public. Today, about half of all American adults—117 million people—have one or more preventable , chronic diseases, many of which are related to poor quality eating patterns and physical inactivity. "

 

I surely would like to see what shape the guys here that post the "tin foil hat" comments are in.

Or those who try so hard to slander the people that advocate herd immunity and common sense,  and individual freedom of choice.   We are not the killers here , and indeed the vast majority by far of those who get seriously ill or die have age or HEALTH issues already.

 

If you are drunk, don't drive.   If you are at risk ,  by all means isolate and also take responsibility for your OWN  health .   Do not tell me I can not drive or can not walk on the beach.   And for sure,  throw away those tin foil hats.  They do act as a mirror,  but give a very distorted view to those who choose to throw the term at others.    

 

Which half of the adult population do you belong to ?   If one is worried because of their age,

then common sense should prevail and one must accept the risk.  I for one would not tell everyone younger that they must stop their lives and stay inside.

As for the health issue....  that one is up to you,  no ?   Again, do you tell anyone who is not one of the 50 percent of obese or already health compromised that they must keep inside to protect you ?    

 

Science says:   eat healthy, exercise, and you will stand a much better chance of not getting diseases .  And your immune system will do its job ! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Logosone]

41 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Yes, the Norway and Sweden car accident analogy makes it clear that there IS a difference in results between the Covid-19 approach of these 2 nations.

And so I was also a bit sceptical that dr Erickson in the video stated that the 6-times higher deaths per capita in Sweden were 'statistically insignificant'.  In my opinion the case he advocated was strong and sensible enough not to need that Norway-Sweden comparison.

That being said, there are some other factors to be taken into consideration that explain why the Sweden-approach might be the better one after all:

- The method of collecting data on the covid-19 related deaths is different (in Sweden also deaths in care-houses are counted and not only in hospitals);

- Due to their more relaxed approach, more people have been infected earlier and so the Swedish death-figures are ahead of countries that practiced strict social distancing, and these will probably face a spike in deaths again once they start opening up again;

- Sweden does not suffer the detrimental secondary effects of the lock-down in the same degree that other countries are facing (depressions and illnesses of the 'home prisoners', an economy in shambles with large parts of the population unemployed and scratching to make ends meet).

- Sweden - despite (or maybe partially because of) its approach - is far from the Worst Student in the class, but seems to have practiced a sensible approach to the crisis instead of the panick football we see in other countries.

Imo other countries could learn a lot of the Swedish approach, and over time it will become clear whether they were correct from the start.  I have strong reasons to believe they are...

 

Well obviously Norway has done a little better, simply because they were testing far more. The mortality rate is somewhat better in Norway, however, we're talking 0.01 compared to 0.02. Is that statistically significant or not? Maybe, but it's a very small difference.

 

Sweden, though it has done a few mistakes, is interesting precisely because it has done neither the social distancing nor mass testing to a great degree. And we still see that the mortality is not out of control. So we can see the truth content of the social distancing fanatics' religion is not very high.

 

And yes, of course the economic benefits of Sweden's approach, to say nothing of the quality of life benefits, or the later immunity benefits are not even fully appreciated.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Logosone

[Peter Denis]

26 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

1 - Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any actual factual information about the bits in bold, particularly the 1st one, or you are making an assumption based on your opinion?

2 - Talking of depression, Sweden has one of the high suicide rates in Europe.

1 - Actually the Swedish approach seems to prove that strict social distancing SLOWS the spread of the infections and thus - in the short term - leads to lower death-figures.

But you cannot keep people 'home-prisoners' for months waiting for the so-called miracle-cure with a vaccine.  A total lock-down is non-sustainable and so relaxing the social-distancing approach is already taking place at the moment in some countries, which might ignite the second wave of infections and associated deaths.  Did strict social-distancing only 'buy time' at an enormous cost?  Time will tell.

2 - True, but if a large part of the population already has a gloomy outlook on life, it surely won't help locking them up and denying them healthy social encounters.

[rumak]

1 minute ago, Peter Denis said:

  40 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

1 - Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any actual factual information about the bits in bold, particularly the 1st one, or you are making an assumption based on your opinion?

2 - Talking of depression, Sweden has one of the high suicide rates in Europe.

I hear that Swedes also eat more meatballs per capita than any other country.   And are on average 3 inches shorter than Danes ,  probably because the govt.  does not demand that mothers breastfeed until the age of 6.  

 

[Skallywag]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

We are going to have a life, despite what some people think we should do.

Agree, and I still have a life.  Was trying to point out that if you are older (like me), don't have the antibodies, are at-risk, AND do not wear PPE when in crowded gatherings, yes you are risking your health.  People have free will - but realize you took the risk

 

I do not want this lockdown ,and do not think it necessary if people take responsibility.  Scientists have already given us the way to prevent contracting this virus and preventing the spread.  Wear mask, stay away from people, wash hands when outside or inside after touching surfaces. 

What else can they do?

Vaccines are 12 months away.

[Skallywag]

30 minutes ago, rumak said:

Or those who try so hard to slander the people that advocate herd immunity and common sense,  and individual freedom of choice.   We are not the killers here , and indeed the vast majority by far of those who get seriously ill or die have age or HEALTH issues already......Do not tell me I can not drive or can not walk on the beach.  

 

Let us say a thai lady or man come up to us while we are walking or sitting on the beach and infect us by coughing, spitting, or touching. 

THEN what recourse do we have? 

Who stops Thai people or even other tourists from "getting in your face" to ask us something, scam us, or sell us something?  

Even if against a law, we all know many behaviors will not change here

 

 

[KhaoNiaw]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

 

Talking of depression, Sweden has one of the high suicide rates in Europe.

True but pretty much the same rate as the US.

 

37 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Sweden, though it has done a few mistakes, is interesting precisely because it has done neither the social distancing nor mass testing to a great degree. And we still see that the mortality is not out of control. So we can see the truth content of the social distancing fanatics' religion is not very high.

They have recommended social distancing. But they actually trust people to follow the recommendations and people have been doing so to a great extent. It would be wrong to assume that Swedes have been following normal daily behavior. 

[Logosone]

The latest on face masks:

 

"Later on Tuesday, Professor Angela McLean, the deputy chief scientific adviser, said SAGE had recommended that there is 'weak evidence of a small effect' that wearing a face mask can prevent an infected person spreading the disease.  

She told the daily Downing Street press conference: 'The answer is clear that the evidence is weak and the effect is small, and we have passed that on to our colleagues in Government with which to make a decision.' "

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8274841/Boris-Johnson-says-Britons-wear-facemasks-lockdown.html

[Skallywag]

8 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The latest on face masks:

 

"Later on Tuesday, Professor Angela McLean, the deputy chief scientific adviser, said SAGE had recommended that there is 'weak evidence of a small effect' that wearing a face mask can prevent an infected person spreading the disease.  

She told the daily Downing Street press conference: 'The answer is clear that the evidence is weak and the effect is small, and we have passed that on to our colleagues in Government with which to make a decision.' "

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8274841/Boris-Johnson-says-Britons-wear-facemasks-lockdown.html

Coming from the country, government that has the highest per capita deaths and infection rates. By all means I want to follow their recommendations - NOT

 

At prime minister’s questions on Wednesday, Keir Starmer said he had added up a total of 27,241 coronavirus deaths so far, leaving the UK “possibly on track to have the worst death rate in Europe”.