Steps when British Nationals die in Pattaya

[sharecropper]

Has anyone had any recent experience of what steps a Thai spouse has to go through, especially with the British Embassy in Bangkok, when her (legally-married) British national spouse dies in Pattaya?

 

I emailed the embassy and it said you don’t have to register your spouse as next of kin with the embassy any more. So I'm hunting down how to do that elsewhere on the FCO website now. (Update - I gave up and sent them an enquiry).

 

I have no immediate plans on croaking, but think now is a good time for us to understand the necessary post-death steps.

 

Thanks.

[Guderian]

3 hours ago, sharecropper said:

I have no immediate plans on croaking, but think now is a good time for us to understand the necessary post-death steps.

No idea of the steps, sorry, but depending on your financial situation you may be well-advised to speak to a specialist legacy planner. You say that you're married to a Thai wife, so I assume that most or all of your estate will go to her? Just remember that HMRC will almost certainly regard you as being UK-domiciled, regardless of your residence for tax purposes, and so will probably try to apply IHT to your estate. The problem with that is your foreign wife's IHT-free allowance is just a fraction of what a UK citizen is entitled to (it was around £30K the last time I looked, not £300K). If you have a good lawyer/legacy planner involved and remain outside the UK's death reporting system, then once you've croaked your family and advisors will have several days to move your money around and change names on assets as need be so as to minimise exposure to UK IHT and also stay under the Thai tax allowances (which are often much more generous than the UK ones). When all of that is done your death can be officially reported to the UK authorities. I have no idea what your circumstances are so perhaps none of this applies to you, but if you think it may then you should seek professional advice as it's a very complicated area. You don't want to subject your wife to the ordeal of trying to handle the vultures in HMRC after your demise.

[Rimmer]

A couple of troll posts have been removed, if you have noting worthwhile to add please move on to another topic that interests you more.

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, Guderian said:

and remain outside the UK's death reporting system,

Seriously doubt he will be outside UK death reporting system as normal procedure for death of a foreigner as I understand it is police take ID and report to Embassy (who search for family to advise disposition and such).  Would assume Embassy reports death to home government during this process.  

[OneMoreFarang]

Maybe contact this company in Bangkok.

https://www.amarinternational.com/contact.html

They will be able to answer lots of your questions, in Thai and English.

 

[Kerryd]

First thing I would suggest is getting a proper Last Will and Testament made up. 

It seems that, if you have assets in another country, then you will need a Will for those assets as well, even if you have the same Executor/Beneficiary (as a Will in one country may not be enforceable in another and there may be differences in the laws regarding inheritance).

My dad had a Will in Thailand and a Will in Canada and it worked out fine in both countries.

You mentioned being "legally married". Was that in Thailand or in the UK ? The UK gov has a section regarding marriages (https://www.gov.uk/marriage-abroad). You want to make sure you are properly "registered" in the UK, especially in the event of any Survivor Benefits (from pensions or whatever). Can save a lot of hassle and headache later on.

Looking at the UK Gov website, they have a couple sections there about bereavement as well:
https://www.gov.uk/when-someone-dies
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/information-relating-to-deaths-in-thailand

Some steps you may want to consider ahead of time would be to transfer assets to (whoever) ahead of time. Risky though, especially if you find yourself living longer than you (or your beneficiaries) expected ! Certain things may be better of leaving until after you've reached the Pearly Gates (if you believe in that kind of thing).

Can't really arrange a ceremony at a temple ahead of time, but you could find a place you like, inquire about the costs and procedures and pick out a nice spot for your personal "chedi".

Basically, when a foreigner dies, there needs to be a Death Certificate issued from a hospital.

• The Certificate has to be registered with City Hall (I have no idea why - that is the procedure apparently).
• Then the (spouse or whoever) can take the person's passport and the Death Certificate to that person's Embassy.
• There, the Embassy will basically just cancel the passport and you can get the Death Certificate translated and have Certified True Copies made (This will be important if there are assets back in your home country to deal with, as well as for informing the various gov't departments about the deceased person.) I needed the Copies when I went to the lawyer (in Canada) and to the Service Centre where I had them put a stop on his pension, as well as a copy for his Union Pension office (to stop that pension) and a copy for the bank after the Will was probated. The Embassy won't do any of that for you (it's not their job regardless of what some people might think). (It's not free either.)
• The Embassy should also issue a letter authorizing (I'll use "spouse") to dispose of the remains. That letter will be needed by the Temple (usually - they aren't suppose to cremate anyone without the proper authority for obvious reasons).
• Once you have the Letter, your spouse can make arrangements with the Temple for the cremation ceremony. They are often 1-3 day affairs with the cremation happening on the last day. (In Pattaya they hold off turning on the burners until night time I think.)
• The next day (early in the morning in my case) there is another "ceremony" dealing with the ashes but I'm sure your spouse will know how that works already.

 

Note: I was told that the Will can't be probated in Court until after 45 days have passed. (This may be to allow creditors and/or other family members a chance to file claims against the Estate.)
Your spouse will probably need a lawyer to Probate the Will (or, having one will make the process easier) however that will cost more of course. I used the same lawyer that made up dad's will. They either charge a percentage of the value of the estate or a fixed amount. 

There's not a lot you can do beforehand other than making sure your spouse is recognized (legally) as such and having the Will in place.

No Will can result in a lot of problems for your spouse, especially if she isn't "recognized" as such (properly).
 

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, Guderian said:

No idea of the steps, sorry, but depending on your financial situation you may be well-advised to speak to a specialist legacy planner. You say that you're married to a Thai wife, so I assume that most or all of your estate will go to her? Just remember that HMRC will almost certainly regard you as being UK-domiciled, regardless of your residence for tax purposes, and so will probably try to apply IHT to your estate. The problem with that is your foreign wife's IHT-free allowance is just a fraction of what a UK citizen is entitled to (it was around £30K the last time I looked, not £300K). If you have a good lawyer/legacy planner involved and remain outside the UK's death reporting system, then once you've croaked your family and advisors will have several days to move your money around and change names on assets as need be so as to minimise exposure to UK IHT and also stay under the Thai tax allowances (which are often much more generous than the UK ones). When all of that is done your death can be officially reported to the UK authorities. I have no idea what your circumstances are so perhaps none of this applies to you, but if you think it may then you should seek professional advice as it's a very complicated area. You don't want to subject your wife to the ordeal of trying to handle the vultures in HMRC after your demise.

 

I'm sorry but there is a lot of inaccurate information here. HMRC will only regard a British citizen as domiciled in the UK if he/she meets the criteria. There is prescribed criteria which determines where someone is domiciled, which is detailed on their website, which is very user friendly. You can register to access this site easily for specific personal related information. They also detail very clearly the gifts allowed between spouses that are tax free, IHT etc etc etc.

 

There are many good tax consultants in the UK that service expats on-line. Not very expensive and well worth the cost. 

 

 

[Guderian]

21 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I'm sorry but there is a lot of inaccurate information here. HMRC will only regard a British citizen as domiciled in the UK if he/she meets the criteria. There is prescribed criteria which determines where someone is domiciled, which is detailed on their website, which is very user friendly. You can register to access this site easily for specific personal related information. They also detail very clearly the gifts allowed between spouses that are tax free, IHT etc etc etc.

 

There are many good tax consultants in the UK that service expats on-line. Not very expensive and well worth the cost. 

 

 

Nonsense, like many people, you're confusing residence with domicile. Residence is relatively easy to change, domicile is extremely difficult, and on top of that, even if you think you have met the HMRC criteria, they will refuse to confirm it until after your death.

[sharecropper]

Thanks for some excellent replies, links and information.

 

I have a Thai will leaving all Thai assets to my spouse, and what remains of my UK assets all go to UK-based relatives under a UK will (and they are under the tax threshold in any event).

 

I'm definitely legally resident and domiciled in Thailand after 18 years, on the government's own definition of UK domicile:

When you will not count as living abroad

HMRC will treat you as being domiciled in the UK if you either:

• lived in the UK for 15 of the last 20 years
• had your permanent home in the UK at any time in the last 3 years of your life

https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/when-someone-living-outside-the-uk-dies

 

[topt]

2 hours ago, sharecropper said:

I'm definitely legally resident and domiciled in Thailand after 18 years, on the government's own definition of UK domicile:

You may well be right but if I was you I would do some more reading around UK domicile at a deeper level than the bland statements on the gov.uk site. As @Guderian mentioned it has never been straightforward and there have been some good discussions on here about it in the distant past.

 

It may be that you fall below the relevant IHT thresholds anyhow and if so it may all be irrelevant.

[Thingamabob]

Why not put everything you want to leave to your Thai wife into her name while you are alive ?

[brianthainess]

20 hours ago, Kerryd said:

The Certificate has to be registered with City Hall (I have no idea why - that is the procedure apparently).

The City Hall/family court will then issue the wife with a letter (after probate ?) if there is no will she can together with bank book and passport go to his bank and remove all funds thats according to what the Krungsri bank told me in an email.

Edited May 16, 2020 by brianthainess

[lopburi3]

9 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

f there is no will she can together with bank book and passport

It was my understanding that police take passport immediately and provide to Embassy on death of a foreigner at home - but that is just what I had heard as no personal experience.  

[brianthainess]

6 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

It was my understanding that police take passport immediately and provide to Embassy on death of a foreigner at home - but that is just what I had heard as no personal experience.  

Maybe a copy or pp num then, my computer swallowed the email

[hotandsticky]

You (your widow) does not need to contact the British embassy at all.

 

 

If you die at home the police must be informed within 24 hours.

 

 

If you die in hospital then an embassy release letter will be required before your body can be removed for cremation.

 

 

Make a Will if you have assets in Thailand (separate one if you have assets in the UK). If you die intestate in Thailand your assets do not automatically pass to your widow (like the UK). A Will should make it easier for your widow to extract cash from bank accounts - and transfer any vehicles that may be in your name. Court approval will ost likely be required (ie the equivalent of 'proving ' the Will).

 

I suggest that your widow does not give up your passport to anyone...... at least not without taking several copies. Lopburi is right, the police would usually ask for it. Fob them off with a copy if the death occurs at home.

Edited May 16, 2020 by hotandsticky

[prakhonchai nick]

10 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

You (your widow) does not need to contact the British embassy at all.

 

 

If you die at home the police must be informed within 24 hours.

 

 

If you die in hospital then an embassy release letter will be required before your body can be removed for cremation.

 

 

Make a Will if you have assets in Thailand (separate one if you have assets in the UK). If you die intestate in Thailand your assets do not automatically pass to your widow (like the UK). A Will should make it easier for your widow to extract cash from bank accounts - and transfer any vehicles that may be in your name. Court approval will ost likely be required (ie the equivalent of 'proving ' the Will).

 

I suggest that your widow does not give up your passport to anyone...... at least not without taking several copies. Lopburi is right, the police would usually ask for it. Fob them off with a copy if the death occurs at home.

This the best response that I have read, and it is completely accurate.

 

 

 

[ChipButty]

I had a friend die recently and she contacted the police they came looked at his dead body took some details and told her to contact the USA embassy, didn't take his passport they shipped his body off to the mortuary and waited for the death certificate from the embassy before they would release the body for cremation.

That was the easy bit.

Without getting into too many details he had a will here and in the USA now the problems start 3 months and nothing sorted either here or the USA seems to me the other beneficiaries in the USA will are trying to not pay her part of the will that was left to her, messy already 

I should have added the lawyers here in Phuket are at it already 

Edited May 16, 2020 by ChipButty

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

I had a friend die recently and she contacted the police they came looked at his dead body took some details and told her to contact the USA embassy, didn't take his passport they shipped his body off to the mortuary and waited for the death certificate from the embassy before they would release the body for cremation.

That was the easy bit.

Without getting into too many details he had a will here and in the USA now the problems start 3 months and nothing sorted either here or the USA seems to me the other beneficiaries in the USA will are trying to not pay her part of the will that was left to her, messy already 

I should have added the lawyers here in Phuket are at it already 

 

 

That is a good example of why you have to choose your executors carefully.

 

 

 

One more VERY important point to remember is that if you do come to Thailand and choose to marry your tirak, the act of marriage invalidates any previous Will. That has the effect of your widow inheriting everything under the rules of intestacy (in the case of the UK). 

 

If you marry review your Will and make a new one/s if appropriate.

[sharecropper]

On 5/16/2020 at 10:08 AM, ChipButty said:

I had a friend die recently and she contacted the police they came looked at his dead body took some details and told her to contact the USA embassy, didn't take his passport they shipped his body off to the mortuary and waited for the death certificate from the embassy before they would release the body for cremation.

That was the easy bit.

Without getting into too many details he had a will here and in the USA now the problems start 3 months and nothing sorted either here or the USA seems to me the other beneficiaries in the USA will are trying to not pay her part of the will that was left to her, messy already 

I should have added the lawyers here in Phuket are at it already 

 

I think obtaining the death certificate is what bothers me most, especially if police are involved in an at-home death.

 

Do you know why the US Embassy get involved in issuing a death certificate for your friend, when it's usually a hospital that issues them?

[Kerryd]

1 minute ago, sharecropper said:

 

I think obtaining the death certificate is what bothers me most, especially if police are involved in an at-home death.

Do you know why the US Embassy get involved in issuing a death certificate for your friend, when it's usually a hospital that issues them?

Yeah, Embassy's don't issue Death Certificates. I had to take dad's Death Certificate to the Embassy to have it legally translated and then get stamped "Certified True Copies" made.

My understanding is, unless one dies in a hospital, the body has to be sent to one for an autopsy (at least in the case of foreigners). Unless of course the cause of death is obvious. Even then, the body is still supposed to go the a hospital to have the Death Certificate made up (which can only be signed off by a Doctor I believe). Also, it is the only place to "store" the remains until arrangements can be made for them.

The Embassy has to be notified in any event. It is usually up to the spouse/relative to do that and take the passport there so it can be cancelled. The Embassy issues the "authorization" to dispose of the body, as the deceased is still a citizen of that country. How the body is disposed of is either as per the Will or at the discretion of the Executor/spouse.

In some cases, the remains might end up being shipped "home". In other cases, they would be buried/cremated locally (and maybe the ashes sent home). 

 

[lopburi3]

15 minutes ago, sharecropper said:

Do you know why the US Embassy get involved in issuing a death certificate for your friend, when it's usually a hospital that issues them?

The US Embassy report of death abroad is required for any action taken in US to obtain accounts, estate or retirement type income.  

Quote

 

The American Citizen Services unit can:

Confirm the death, identity, and U.S. citizenship of the deceased.
Notify the next-of-kin.
Provide information about the disposition of the remains and personal effects of the deceased.
Prepare documents for the disposition of the remains in accordance with instructions from the next-of-kin or legal representative.
Provide guidance on forwarding funds to cover costs.
Serve as provisional conservator of the estate if there is no legal representative in the country.
Send the Consular Report of Death Abroad to the next-of-kin or legal representative for use in settling estate matters in the United States.

 

 

[sharecropper]

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

The Embassy has to be notified in any event. It is usually up to the spouse/relative to do that and take the passport there so it can be cancelled. The Embassy issues the "authorization" to dispose of the body, as the deceased is still a citizen of that country. How the body is disposed of is either as per the Will or at the discretion of the Executor/spouse.

Thanks. Do you know if getting the Embassy's authorisation to dispose of the body can significantly delay the funeral arrangements? My reading of the British Embassy's performance in Bangkok, perhaps unfairly, is they can't be relied on to do anything quickly.

 

But the last thing you'd want your grieving missus to have to deal with is getting the runaround from some idiot at the Embassy when all they want to do is act in accordance with your express wishes and and have you quickly cremated and disposed of.

[Kerryd]

2 minutes ago, sharecropper said:

Thanks. Do you know if getting the Embassy's authorisation to dispose of the body can significantly delay the funeral arrangements? My reading of the British Embassy's performance in Bangkok, perhaps unfairly, is they can't be relied on to do anything quickly.

 

But the last thing you'd want your grieving missus to have to deal with is getting the runaround from some idiot at the Embassy when all they want to do is act in accordance with your express wishes and and have you quickly cremated and disposed of.

Not sure about the UK. The Canadian Embassy did my letter up as we waited (we had time while the Death Certificate was being officially translated and copied).
Having a Will naming your spouse as your Executor (and beneficiary) would probably help (as they wouldn't be questioning who that person was that was trying to get rid of your body).

The biggest delay in my case was dear old dad croaking on a Saturday afternoon. Had to wait until Monday to get the Death Certificate then get it to City Hall. Tuesday we went to Bangkok and did the Embassy bit. Wednesday we went to the temple to make the arrangements. They didn't want to do a 3 day ceremony (like dad's teerak wanted - knowing I would be paying for it), because dad had already been "on ice" for 4 days by then. We agreed to a 1 day ceremony on the Friday. One and done.

(Dad's idea on the whole affair was "Just cook me and be done with it".)

[sharecropper]

4 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Not sure about the UK. The Canadian Embassy did my letter up as we waited (we had time while the Death Certificate was being officially translated and copied).
Having a Will naming your spouse as your Executor (and beneficiary) would probably help (as they wouldn't be questioning who that person was that was trying to get rid of your body).

The biggest delay in my case was dear old dad croaking on a Saturday afternoon. Had to wait until Monday to get the Death Certificate then get it to City Hall. Tuesday we went to Bangkok and did the Embassy bit. Wednesday we went to the temple to make the arrangements. They didn't want to do a 3 day ceremony (like dad's teerak wanted - knowing I would be paying for it), because dad had already been "on ice" for 4 days by then. We agreed to a 1 day ceremony on the Friday. One and done.

(Dad's idea on the whole affair was "Just cook me and be done with it".)

Where was your father's body on ice, pending these formalities? And did City Hall do the necessary without any fuss or delays?

 

Thanks.

[jvs]

Op,you may also think about this,does your Spouse have access to a bank account in case you die?

It will not be legal for her to use your account after you pass away.

The whole probate thing will take at least 3 months to be dealt with and in the meantime she will need

money to live and pay for the funeral.

We have some gold hidden away for that event so she can always sell it and have enough money for the time being.

[sharecropper]

1 minute ago, jvs said:

Op,you may also think about this,does your Spouse have access to a bank account in case you die?

It will not be legal for her to use your account after you pass away.

The whole probate thing will take at least 3 months to be dealt with and in the meantime she will need

money to live and pay for the funeral.

We have some gold hidden away for that event so she can always sell it and have enough money for the time being.

Gold stash is a good idea. We have a joint account that (currently) has sufficient in to deal with the likely future payments and necessaries.

[jvs]

24 minutes ago, sharecropper said:

Gold stash is a good idea. We have a joint account that (currently) has sufficient in to deal with the likely future payments and necessaries.

This raises the question ,if one person has died is it legal to withdraw money from that joint account?

I would think so but it would be a good thing to know for sure.

I have tried to set things up so that my gf has no problems legally or practically.

Edited May 17, 2020 by jvs

[Kerryd]

1 hour ago, sharecropper said:

Where was your father's body on ice, pending these formalities? And did City Hall do the necessary without any fuss or delays?

 

Thanks.

Yeah, he was in the morgue the whole time. Because he died on the weekend, it took almost a week before we could do the ceremony and fire him into the oven. That's why the temple didn't want to do a 3 days ceremony (would have started getting "ripe" by the end of it).

There wasn't any issues with City Hall (or anywhere really). Helped that dad's "girlfriend" was there - less confusion about where to go and who to see.

[bkk6060]

30 minutes ago, jvs said:

This raises the question ,if one person has died is it legal to withdraw money from that joint account?

Yes.

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Yes.

If the bank learns of the death of one party, is the account not frozen? (I heard of this recently).