How American investors are gobbling up booming bitcoin

[snoop1130]

How American investors are gobbling up booming bitcoin

By Tom Wilson and Alun John

 

FILE PHOTO: Representations of virtual currency Bitcoin and U.S. dollar banknotes are seen in this picture illustration taken January 27, 2020. REUTERS/Dado Ruvic

 

LONDON/HONG KONG (Reuters) - Bitcoin has grabbed headlines this week with its dizzying ascent to an all-time high. Yet, under the radar, a trend has been playing out that could change the face of the cryptocurrency market: a massive flow of coin to North America from East Asia.

 

Bitcoin, the biggest and original cryptocurrency, soared to a record $19,918 on Tuesday, buoyed by demand from investors who variously view the virtual currency as a "risk-on" asset, a hedge against inflation and a payment method gaining mainstream acceptance.

 

But the boom represents a shift in the market, which has typically been dominated by investors in East Asian nations like China, Japan and South Korea since the digital currency was invented by the mysterious Satoshi Nakamoto over a decade ago.

 

It is North American investors who have been the bigger winners in the 165% rally this year.

 

Weekly net inflows of bitcoin - a proxy for new buyers - to platforms serving mostly North American users have jumped over 7,000 times this year to over 216,000 bitcoin worth $3.4 billion in mid-November, data compiled for Reuters shows.

 

East Asian exchanges have lost out.

 

Those serving investors in the region bled 240,000 bitcoin worth $3.8 billion last month, versus an inflow of 1,460 in January, according to the data from U.S. blockchain researcher Chainalysis.

 

The change is being driven by an increasing appetite for bitcoin among bigger U.S. investors, according to Reuters interviews with cryptocurrency platforms and investors from the United States and Europe to South Korea, Hong Kong and Japan.

 

"The sudden influx of institutional interest from the North American region is driving a shift in bitcoin trading, which is rebalancing asset allocations across different exchanges and platforms," said Ciara Sun of Seychelles-based Huobi Global Markets, whose parent company has roots in China and operates in several Asian markets.

 

'CENTRE OF GRAVITY'

 

East Asia, North America and Western Europe are the biggest bitcoin hubs, with the first two alone accounting for about half of all transfers, according to Chainalysis, which gathers data by region with tools such as tagging cryptocurrency wallets.

 

Industry experts caution it is too early to call a fundamental shift in the market, particularly in an unprecedented year of pandemic-induced financial turmoil.

 

Growing flows to North America this year are not necessarily "an indication that the centre of gravity is tilting towards the U.S.," said James Quinn of Q9 Capital, a Hong Kong cryptocurrency private wealth manager.

 

Others also point out that cryptocurrency trading is highly opaque compared to traditional assets and patchily regulated, making comprehensive data on the emerging sector rare.

 

Nonetheless, Chainalysis found North American trading volumes at major exchanges - those with the most blockchain activity - had eclipsed East Asia's this year. This is not unheard of, with North America having moved ahead on occasions in the past, but never by such a large margin.

 

Volumes at four major North American platforms have doubled this year to reach 1.6 million bitcoin per week at the end of November, while trading at 14 major East Asian exchanges have risen 16% to 1.4 million, according to the data.

 

By comparison, a year before, East Asia led the way with 1.3 million a week versus North America's 766,000.

 

U.S. INVESTORS DIVE IN

 

Those interviewed by Reuters said compliance-wary U.S. investors, many of whom had been deterred by the opaque nature of the market in the past, are being attracted by the tightening oversight of the American crypto industry.

 

U.S. exchanges are in general more tightly regulated than many of those in East Asia, and there have been several moves by American regulators and law-enforcement agencies this year to clarify how bitcoin is overseen.

 

A leading banking regulator said in July, for instance, that national banks could provide custody services for cryptocurrencies. The justice department also outlined an enforcement framework https://www.justice.gov/ag/page/file/1326061/download for digital coins in October.

 

"You're increasingly starting to see distinctions in the market between those that have no regulatory or little regulatory clarity, versus those that do," said Curtis Ting of major U.S. exchange Kraken.

 

"Larger institutions seek the predictability that a regulated venue offers."

 

Assets under management at New York-based Grayscale, the world's largest digital currency manager, have soared to a record $10.4 billion, up more than 75% from September. Its bitcoin fund is up 85%.

 

"A lot of U.S. funds are trading with large U.S. counterparties," said Christopher Matta of 3iQ, a Canadian digital asset manager with clients in the United States, citing exchanges such as California's Coinbase that are overseen by New York financial regulators.

 

"It tells you right there how important the regulatory nature of the space is, and having venues to trade on that are regulated - it's definitely something that institutional investors are thinking about."

 

RETAIL ARMY STEPS BACK

 

Another factor behind the 2020 trend, crypto experts said, is a decline of the armies of retail investors in Asia who drove bitcoin's 2017 boom, which pushed it to its previous peak.

 

In South Korea, strict regulations have been discouraging such investors, according to In Hoh of Korea University's Blockchain Research Institute.

 

Concerns that major retail exchanges linked to China but headquartered elsewhere could be caught up in a crackdown by Beijing may have pushed down demand, said Leo Weese, co-founder of the Hong Kong Bitcoin Association.

 

In October, for instance, Malta-headquartered OKEx, which was founded in China, suspended crypto withdrawals for nearly six weeks because an executive was cooperating with an investigation by Chinese law enforcement.

 

OKEx resumed withdrawals on Nov. 26, and its reserves fully covered deposits so users could withdraw funds with no restrictions, said Lennix Lai, director of financial markets.

 

While Asia remains a major centre for crypto trading, some exchanges see a more profound shift happening.

 

"Nowadays, I think the influence is coming from North America," said Yuzo Kano, co-founder of bitFlyer in Tokyo, which runs exchanges in Japan, Europe and the United States.

 

"There are a lot of funds buying there."

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-12-03

 

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[impulse]

Change "Investors" to "Gamblers" and ya got something closer to the truth.

 

[ThailandRyan]

deleted

Edited December 3, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[Emdog]

11 hours ago, impulse said:

Change "Investors" to "Gamblers" and ya got something closer to the truth.

 

Yep... rather than saying trading "worth" so much, perhaps trading "sold for". The model of bitcoin and others is price increases are due to "greater fool theory": willing to pay price because hoping there are even greater fools out there who will pay even more. Other than being a means to hide transactions from the law, there is nothing backing up the "valuable" coins.

If I buy stock or real estate, there usually is some sort of asset connected to purchase. Dot com crash showed danger of chasing pies in the sky.

[mr mr]

15 minutes ago, Emdog said:

Yep... rather than saying trading "worth" so much, perhaps trading "sold for". The model of bitcoin and others is price increases are due to "greater fool theory": willing to pay price because hoping there are even greater fools out there who will pay even more. Other than being a means to hide transactions from the law, there is nothing backing up the "valuable" coins.

If I buy stock or real estate, there usually is some sort of asset connected to purchase. Dot com crash showed danger of chasing pies in the sky.

 

a  comment clearly demonstrating a total ignorance towards bitcoin and blockchain. bitcoin has been the greatest performing asset on planet earth in the last 10 years.

 

9million percent gains.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, mr mr said:

a  comment clearly demonstrating a total ignorance towards bitcoin and blockchain. bitcoin has been the greatest performing asset on planet earth in the last 10 years.

 

9million percent gains.

 

Tulip bulbs did even better on an annualized basis, though they didn't last quite as long.   That didn't end well.

 

Those who don't study their history are doomed to repeat it.  (I'm paraphrasing).  And no, it's not different this time.

 

[ThailandRyan]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Tulip bulbs did even better on an annualized basis, though they didn't last quite as long.   That didn't end well.

 

Those who don't study their history are doomed to repeat it.  (I'm paraphrasing).  And no, it's not different this time.

 

It is not a ponzi scheme, I have made plenty of money over time with the crypto currencies, a lot more then I am making in stocks.

[Proboscis]

4 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

It is not a ponzi scheme, I have made plenty of money over time with the crypto currencies, a lot more then I am making in stocks.

Please remember that ponzi schemes make money, for a time. This is more like what people used to call "a long game." It is where you build up the confidence in an investment despite there really being nothing in it, nothing to back it. During a long game, and I would class some investments in the so-called dot.com bubble as long games, investors do make some money but it is crazy stuff. Look at the volatility!

[4reaL]

11 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Please remember that ponzi schemes make money, for a time. This is more like what people used to call "a long game." It is where you build up the confidence in an investment despite there really being nothing in it, nothing to back it. During a long game, and I would class some investments in the so-called dot.com bubble as long games, investors do make some money but it is crazy stuff. Look at the volatility!

 

There are some very good performing ETF's with Bitcoin holdings, they've given much more access to the layman.

[impulse]

26 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

It is not a ponzi scheme, I have made plenty of money over time with the crypto currencies, a lot more then I am making in stocks.

 

Lots of people made fortunes trading tulip bulbs, too.  Until it collapsed.  You just cashed out in time.  

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by impulse

[Surelynot]

14 hours ago, impulse said:

Change "Investors" to "Gamblers" and ya got something closer to the truth.

 

Not radically different from the stock market for all those investors who are not party to pre-market and post-market trading and insider information.

[Surelynot]

38 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Tulip bulbs did even better on an annualized basis, though they didn't last quite as long.   That didn't end well.

 

Those who don't study their history are doomed to repeat it.  (I'm paraphrasing).  And no, it's not different this time.

 

It is all the timing....I have got to move away from my current model of buying at the top and selling at the bottom...

[ThailandRyan]

3 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

It is all the timing....I have got to move away from my current model of buying at the top and selling at the bottom...

Sort of like buying what you thought was a fresh beer from a bar only to find out that it is just old an stanky, when you could have bought a new keg for yourself.

[Surelynot]

27 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Please remember that ponzi schemes make money, for a time. This is more like what people used to call "a long game." It is where you build up the confidence in an investment despite there really being nothing in it, nothing to back it. During a long game, and I would class some investments in the so-called dot.com bubble as long games, investors do make some money but it is crazy stuff. Look at the volatility!

True, but it is the volatility that can lead to major gains...(....and to be fair major losses).

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

True, but it is the volatility that can lead to major gains...(....and to be fair major losses).

As in anything in life, do not invest more than your can walk away from and accept the loss.  If money is tight for a person then they should not be investing in such a program.  Sort of like gambling and hoping to hell you make it big, instead you loose it all and end up walking out the door and sleeping on the street because you could not see the writing on the wall.  Blinded by greed. 

[Barnabe]

Could be going to 0, be a Ponzi scheme, etc.

Or could be the birth of a new asset class.

 

Whatever your opinion, it’s worth investing 1 to 10% of your net worth (depending on your risk appetite) just for that chance that it will turn into something big.

 

Like ThailandRyan said, be prepared to take a loss, but if it goes well those 1 to 10% can outperform all your other investments.

[impulse]

7 hours ago, Surelynot said:

21 hours ago, impulse said:

Change "Investors" to "Gamblers" and ya got something closer to the truth.

Not radically different from the stock market for all those investors who are not party to pre-market and post-market trading and insider information.

 

That's true to a large degree.  But the difference is that the stock market is not zero sum.  Companies grow, becoming more valuable over time based on their revenues and profit- along with dividend returns. 

 

Tulip bulbs and Bitcoin only grow in value because people think they're worth more.  There is no fundamental value growth other than perception.  They don't throw off cash or spawn a dividend.  They're zero sum.   All growth is based on finding someone else that's willing to pay more for the same ol' turd.  Kind of like Enron stock.  But that's a whole 'nother thread...

 

[mr mr]

3 hours ago, impulse said:

 

That's true to a large degree.  But the difference is that the stock market is not zero sum.  Companies grow, becoming more valuable over time based on their revenues and profit- along with dividend returns. 

 

Tulip bulbs and Bitcoin only grow in value because people think they're worth more.  There is no fundamental value growth other than perception.  They don't throw off cash or spawn a dividend.  They're zero sum.   All growth is based on finding someone else that's willing to pay more for the same ol' turd.  Kind of like Enron stock.  But that's a whole 'nother thread...

 

 

crypto and blockchain is so much more than bitcoin. it will become an integral part of your daily life very soon. 

 

by no means is crypto a ponzi scheme. just shows your total lack of understanding of it all. there are real companies with real world use and applications in the market. 

 

please humor me and google something called energy web token. after a few minutes you will see some very major world players associated with this project. this is going to have real world application. 

 

ethereum 

ocean protocol

stellar 

chainlink

polkadot

energy web token

vechain - look at this one in regards to the virus and the vaccine

 

a small list of very real very important parts of the future of this planet. 

 

 

[impulse]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:15 AM, mr mr said:

crypto and blockchain is so much more than bitcoin. it will become an integral part of your daily life very soon. 

 

by no means is crypto a ponzi scheme. just shows your total lack of understanding of it all. there are real companies with real world use and applications in the market. 

 

You're conflating Bitcoin, crypto and blockchain.  Crypto is a generic name for a new type of currency, blockchain is the technology that enables it, and the Bitcoin is just one type (brand, if you will) of the new currency.

 

Yet, then you go onto tell me that I don't understand it...  Blockchain is a very valuable technology, no doubt.  Crypto may not be a ponzi scheme, just like energy trading isn't a ponzi scheme.  But Enron and Bitcoin?  Yup. Ponzis.  No intrinsic value.  Just hype.

 

 

[ukrules]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:10 AM, impulse said:

Tulip bulbs did even better on an annualized basis, though they didn't last quite as long.   That didn't end well.

Yet somehow there's a massive Tulip industry even today.

[mr mr]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

You're conflating Bitcoin, crypto and blockchain.  Crypto is a generic name for a new type of currency, blockchain is the technology that enables it, and the Bitcoin is just one type (brand, if you will) of the new currency.

 

but i thought btc was a ponzi scheme ? 

[mr mr]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

You're conflating Bitcoin, crypto and blockchain.  Crypto is a generic name for a new type of currency, blockchain is the technology that enables it, and the Bitcoin is just one type (brand, if you will) of the new currency.

 

 

 

but i thought btc was a ponzi scheme ? 

 

 

[Solinvictus]

On 12/3/2020 at 9:00 PM, impulse said:

Change "Investors" to "Gamblers" and ya got something closer to the truth.

 

Same with that entire ponzi scheme also referred to as the stock market aye?

[impulse]

18 hours ago, ukrules said:

On 12/3/2020 at 10:10 PM, impulse said:

Tulip bulbs did even better on an annualized basis, though they didn't last quite as long.   That didn't end well.

Yet somehow there's a massive Tulip industry even today.

 

And there will always be a Bitcoin market.  But back in the day, some tulip bulbs were selling for more than the price of a house.

 

Edit:  To be truthful, comparing Bitcoin to tulip bulbs is a little unfair to the tulip bulbs market.  If you plant a tulip bulb, you'll get back more than one.  If you plant a Bitcoin, you'll never get back more than you planted.  The ONLY growth is based on perception... 

 

On an aside, I'm reminded of the guy I worked with years ago who paid $50,000 each for several mated pairs of ostriches.  Because that's what people thought they were worth- the perception, if you will.  It's a good thing the guy was rich and didn't lose the farm (literally) when he found out the emperor had no clothes.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by impulse