Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked ?

[robblok]

Im getting more and more annoyed by the lies of the anti vaxers and covid deniers. The last bit came today when i was browsing the Dutch news during my breakfast.

 

A guy from 80 years old a "homeopathic doctor" was saying that there was no covid, that there were no people on the intensive care and that doctors were faking it all and getting 20.000 euros per patient. 

 

This was in the news and readily spread on social media. Should these kinds of nutcases that are proven wrong (take them to an IC let them see the people there) be procecuted or at least be banned from the use of internet. Its just horrible how so many of those nutcases keep creating fake news and undermining all confidence.

 

Fake news really is a problem and its becoming bigger and bigger. I dont like the alternative of censorship. But if news is proven lies there should be some consequences to it IMHO. 

[sanuk711]

"Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked"

 

What sort of punishment did you have in mind for people with a different opinion then you Rob.....

[Gumballl]

Be smart and use your own intellect to discard false information. Pass this advise on to your peers/friends.

 

Btw, I had covid... and subsequently a viral pneumonia... I survived not only the initial issue, but also the pneumonia. Today I feel great.

 

I am looking forward to getting the vaccine, even though I have the probability of being immune from the virus for the next 4-5 months. Long term, I have know idea what to expect. I know that I will keep wearing a mask and performing good hygiene (i.e. washing hands).

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

"Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked"

 

What sort of punishment did you have in mind for people with a different opinion then you Rob.....

Im not talking about a different opinion, i am talking about proven lies. If someone says there are no covid patient on the intensive care and its all a lie and doctors get 20k per patient. These are all proven lies. That is totally different from an other opinion.  I am talking about proven lies.

[Gumballl]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

Im getting more and more annoyed by the lies of the anti vaxers and covid deniers. The last bit came today when i was browsing the Dutch news during my breakfast.

 

A guy from 80 years old a "homeopathic doctor" was saying that there was no covid, that there were no people on the intensive care and that doctors were faking it all and getting 20.000 euros per patient. 

 

This was in the news and readily spread on social media. Should these kinds of nutcases that are proven wrong (take them to an IC let them see the people there) be procecuted or at least be banned from the use of internet. Its just horrible how so many of those nutcases keep creating fake news and undermining all confidence.

 

Fake news really is a problem and its becoming bigger and bigger. I dont like the alternative of censorship. But if news is proven lies there should be some consequences to it IMHO. 

I'm surprised that you read the (whole) article. Just disregard it... as opposed to forwarding such nonsense on TV.

[robblok]

Just now, Gumballl said:

Be smart and use your own intellect to discard false information. Pass this advise on to your peers/friends.

 

Btw, I had covid... and subsequently a viral pneumonia... I survived not only the initial issue, but also the pneumonia. Today I feel great.

 

I am looking forward to getting the vaccine, even though I have the probability of being immune from the virus for the next 4-5 months. Long term, I have know idea what to expect. I know that I will keep wearing a mask and performing good hygiene (i.e. washing hands).

The problem is a lot of people are not smart enough or want to believe lies. Just look at the USA. My point is actually more about proven lies then a different of opinion. Should people be allowed to spread lies or should something be done about it.

 

Its a really slippery slope, but when lies are this blatant and the damage from them big should there not be something done. 

[robblok]

Just now, Gumballl said:

I'm surprised that you read the (whole) article. Just disregard it... as opposed to forwarding such nonsense on TV.

I read it because i see it on TV a lot too outright lies about covid. I mean the internet really gives nutcases a podium.

 

I am not talking about things that can be discussed but lies like there is no covid, there are no people on the IC and doctors get 20k for each covid patient. I mean things that are easily proven to be lies. Not things that can be debated.

[Gumballl]

Just now, robblok said:

The problem is a lot of people are not smart enough or want to believe lies. Just look at the USA. My point is actually more about proven lies then a different of opinion. Should people be allowed to spread lies or should something be done about it.

 

Its a really slippery slope, but when lies are this blatant and the damage from them big should there not be something done. 

Unfortunately, one of the tenets of a free society is free speech.

 

An individual has to use their own intellect to survive in today's world. I guess one could say the same about yesterday's world too.

[Poet]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Its a really slippery slope, but when lies are this blatant and the damage from them big should there not be something done. 

As a Dutchman, the slippery slope you need to worry about when you start feeling the urge to control the speech of others is that you might wake up as a German.
 

[FarFlungFalang]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

The problem is a lot of people are not smart enough or want to believe lies. Just look at the USA. My point is actually more about proven lies then a different of opinion. Should people be allowed to spread lies or should something be done about it.

 

Its a really slippery slope, but when lies are this blatant and the damage from them big should there not be something done. 

Everybody lies,so should everybody be banned from the internet for telling proven lies?Who would run the internet if everybody is a proven lier?"Everything will be all right" is a lie because everything isn't alright.

Edited January 21, 2021 by FarFlungFalang

[Gumballl]

1 minute ago, Poet said:

As a Dutchman, the slippery slope you need to worry about when you start feeling the urge to control the speech of others is that you might wake up as a German.
 

Ouch.

 

You must be an old gent to have bad vibes against the Germans.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Everybody lies,so should everybody be banned from the internet for telling proven lies?Who would run the internet if everybody is a proven lier?

Just if you spread lies like the one i mentioned. The kind that just can't be denied and do damage to everyone. Trump got a label for fake news. Maybe something like that.

[Poet]

Just now, Gumballl said:

Ouch.

 

You must be an old gent to have bad vibes against the Germans.

You're behind the times, my friend ????

The Germany of today has stringent laws against free speech, known as "Volksverhetzung".

Understandably after all they've been through, the Germans worry about fascism taking hold again.

My point is that, traditionally, the Dutch have been seen as more tolerant and willing to trust in the ability of people to make their own decisions, whether than be the drugs they smoke or the ideas they hear.

 

[tonray]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

Just look at the USA.

Perhaps we should look at the Netherlands...they seem to be making lots of news this week too.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Poet said:

You're behind the times, my friend ????

The Germany of today has stringent laws against free speech, known as "Volksverhetzung".

Understandably after all they've been through, the Germans worry about fascism taking hold again.

My point is that, traditionally, the Dutch have been seen as more tolerant and willing to trust in the ability of people to make their own decisions, whether than be the drugs they smoke or the ideas they hear.

 

Ok a reply with some reason. Not what i expected. I take back what i said.

 

I get the point but you understand that the Germans have banned speech about facism. Why can't this be done for lies that damage everything. Like saying that there is no Covid and the hospitals have no patients. People like that are making others rebel and disregard rules.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Poet said:

Well, now, as it happens, neither of those things are true, so, are you not yourself guilty of spreading false news when it suits you?

 

I already retracted it, and admitted i was wrong. Its just that there are a lot of people on this forum with anti German feelings. Usually the older UK crowd. Just assumed it was one of those. 

 

But you actually had a good point so i retract what is say. Was well reasoned.

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

"Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked"

 

What sort of punishment did you have in mind for people with a different opinion then you Rob.....

Like this.  So be careful what you post if you live in Thailand.  They do read TVF.

 

http://udon-news.com/en/news/pm-vows-action-against-false-stories-on-vaccine-plan

 

Quote

 

PM vows action against 'false' stories on vaccine plan

 

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha said he will order legal action against anyone who spreads false information regarding the government's Covid-19 vaccination plan.

 

 

[robblok]

Its just that i find it scarey that people are able to incite rebellion against rules that are there to protect us based on lies. If they debate the mask effectivity with research. That is a different thing. But real lies like this that is of a different magnitude.

[Gumballl]

4 minutes ago, Poet said:

You're behind the times, my friend ????

The Germany of today has stringent laws against free speech, known as "Volksverhetzung".

Understandably after all they've been through, the Germans worry about fascism taking hold again.

My point is that, traditionally, the Dutch have been seen as more tolerant and willing to trust in the ability of people to make their own decisions, whether than be the drugs they smoke or the ideas they hear.

 

I live in the US. People, in certain states (each about the size of a typical European country) also feel that individual rights should trump. Look where they are now. Many "stupid" people are ignorant, and are infected with covid. Many are hospitalized, others are dying.

 

Honestly, I gave up feeling any empathy for those who think they know better than those that have made it their profession to guard and advise against pandemics.

 

If the Dutch have a plan, let it be their own. Good luck.

[Jeffr2]

15 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

Unfortunately, one of the tenets of a free society is free speech.

 

An individual has to use their own intellect to survive in today's world. I guess one could say the same about yesterday's world too.

In the US, free speech is a misnomer.  Look up the first amendment and see the restrictions.

[FarFlungFalang]

12 minutes ago, robblok said:

Just if you spread lies like the one i mentioned. The kind that just can't be denied and do damage to everyone. Trump got a label for fake news. Maybe something like that.

It maybe a noble idea Rob but way too difficult to enforce or to prove without people taking advantage of it for their own gain.To many grey areas.Bsides that one could just say they were joking and didn't really mean it and that it was all just a"misunderstanding".

Edited January 21, 2021 by FarFlungFalang

[ThailandRyan]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

Im not talking about a different opinion, i am talking about proven lies. If someone says there are no covid patient on the intensive care and its all a lie and doctors get 20k per patient. These are all proven lies. That is totally different from an other opinion.  I am talking about proven lies.

So in essence a in country les government majeste charge.  Here here.

[robblok]

Just now, FarFlungFalang said:

It maybe a noble idea Rob but way too difficult to enforce or to prove without people taking advantage of it for their own gain.To many grey areas.Bsides that one could just say they were joking and didn't really mea it and that it was all just a"misunderstanding".

I know its a noble idea and hard to enforce. If i had the solution id be rich. I am not bright enough to find a solution.

 

Its just that fake news is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And yes who is the judge of what is false and not. Just find it that it really irks me that people that spew lies get a podium and convince people. The problem is that this is damaging for all of us.

 

And no I have no solution, i like freedom too. But at what point is the cost of freedom too high. Should freedom of speech be the same as freedom to lie ?

[Gumballl]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

In the US, free speech is a misnomer.  Look up the first amendment and see the restrictions.

Free speech is guaranteed by the gov't, but not by me (an individual).

 

I'm too tired at this time to research details of the 1st Amendment, but if you are so kind, please list your thoughts on the restrictions.

[Poet]

Just now, robblok said:

I get the point but you understand that the Germans have banned speech about facism. Why can't this be done for lies that damage everything.

I think the difference is that, after the war and more than a decade of facist rule, there was near-universal recognition that facism had been a terrible idea. It took time and tragedy to get to that point.

The problem with applying the same strictures to newer arguments is: who gets to make the decision?

I understand what you are saying about some facts being very obvious to you, but it is worth remembering that the official position on key details, such as whether we should wear masks, has already flipflopped. If, in March, you expressed the opinion that we should be wearing masks, your YouTube channel could be banned because you were expressing the opposite of the W.H.O.'s position. The next day, when they changed their position, you could be banned for saying that masks were unnecessary.

Bear in mind that, even today, there is still controversy over the basic question of whether the virus is airborne, or mainly spread by droplets. The official W.H.O. position still does not mention airborne transmission, despite fairly strong evidence that this is the main factor we should be worried about.

The instinct to ban anyone who does not fully accept the official position is a symptom of this age of hysteria. It mirrors the urge to cancel anyone who does not sufficiently parrot establisment political views. This is not an age for freethinkers. In politics, in culture, in public health decisions, all of this is deeply unhealthy. We need to once again develop the moral strength to tolerate new ideas and different opinions.



 

[Lacessit]

One has free speech in Australia. Having said that, if a person does not wear a mask when required, or prevents their children from being vaccinated due to their beliefs, they get hit in the pocket quite severely.

Fines, or loss of childcare subsidies.

[Patong2021]

20 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

Unfortunately, one of the tenets of a free society is free speech.

 

An individual has to use their own intellect to survive in today's world. I guess one could say the same about yesterday's world too.

 Free speech is not making lies. it is no secret that much of the disinformation comes from two sources;

- Certain countries which have a vested interest in  sowing discord in the free world.

- Some people/groups who wish to cause civil unrest for political means or profit.

 

I think once the free world settles and has some recovery there will be a worldwide investigation. We will see that some countries were involved in promoting false information. EU has already identified Russia. Others have indicated Iran and China. Facebook purged hundreds of disinformation actors.

[Curt1591]

45 minutes ago, robblok said:

if news is proven lies there should be some consequences to it IMHO

 

Who proves the lies and how are they proven?

[Gumballl]

7 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 Free speech is not making lies. it is no secret that much of the disinformation comes from two sources;

- Certain countries which have a vested interest in  sowing discord in the free world.

- Some people/groups who wish to cause civil unrest for political means or profit.

 

I think once the free world settles and has some recovery there will be a worldwide investigation. We will see that some countries were involved in promoting false information. EU has already identified Russia. Others have indicated Iran and China. Facebook purged hundreds of disinformation actors.

I strongly believe that a warm, if not unbearably hot,  environment is the path forward to humankind.

 

You may disagree, but how dare you criticize my opinion (as outlandish as it may be) as a lie!

 

Seriously, everyone is entitled to an opinion. As a person, you have to decide which you will subscribe too. Censorship is not the solution.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Gumballl

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Poet said:

I think the difference is that, after the war and more than a decade of facist rule, there was near-universal recognition that facism had been a terrible idea. It took time and tragedy to get to that point.

The problem with applying the same strictures to newer arguments is: who gets to make the decision?

I understand what you are saying about some facts being very obvious to you, but it is worth remembering that the official position on key details, such as whether we should wear masks, has already flipflopped. If, in March, you expressed the opinion that we should be wearing masks, your YouTube channel could be banned because you were expressing the opposite of the W.H.O.'s position. The next day, when they changed their position, you could be banned for saying that masks were unnecessary.

Bear in mind that, even today, there is still controversy over the basic question of whether the virus is airborne, or mainly spread by droplets. The official W.H.O. position still does not mention airborne transmission, despite fairly strong evidence that this is the main factor we should be worried about.

The instinct to ban anyone who does not fully accept the official position is a symptom of this age of hysteria. It mirrors the urge to cancel anyone who does not sufficiently parrot establisment political views. This is not an age for freethinkers. In politics, in culture, in public health decisions, all of this is deeply unhealthy. We need to once again develop the moral strength to tolerate new ideas and different opinions.



 

I like your posts well thought ones.

 

Yes that is the problem but these things are debateable. But saying that there are no people on an IC or that Dr get 20k per patient. That is of a different magnitude. I get it that masks and others can be debated. 

 

I don't agree with banning people who don't follow the official line. I am talking that least the real proven lies the extreme outliers should be done something about. 

But yes its hard who makes the decision.