5 Expats Who Have Become Thai Citizens Reflect On Their Naturalisation

[webfact]

5 Expats Who Have Become Thai Citizens Reflect On Their Naturalisation

By Phunnattha Manutham

 

 

Five seasoned expats, all with longstanding ties to the kingdom, explain the whys and wherefores of their quests to become Thai citizens

 

Doris Gold Wibunsin

 

Doris Gold Wibunsin lives in Chiang Rai on her coffee plantation

 

Resident in Thailand for 54 years, experienced educator Doris Gold Wibunsin was introduced to the country via the Peace Corps. “I was 22 years old and a graduating senior at the University of Miami at the time that John F Kennedy became president,” she says, referring to the man who began the renowned volunteer programme. It wasn’t long before Wibunsin, who taught English after university, signed herself up. “It was an interesting period in my life because the training was very intensive in those days.

 

They were very strict in their selection of volunteers and we were always worried that they would cut us out,” she explains.

 

In 1963 Wibunsin passed the selection process and before she knew it she found herself on the plane to Thailand. She laughs, “In Bangkok we were taught about all the volunteer locations upcountry but when the Peace Corps office showed me where I was going to be assigned, I wanted to go home because I was to be sent south to Trang, and no one had ever mentioned the south before.”

 

Full story: https://www.thailandtatler.com/society/another-country

 

-- © Copyright Thailand Tatler 2021-01-25

 

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[realfunster]

4 minutes ago, webfact said:

5 Expats Who Have Become Thai Citizens Reflect On Their Naturalisation

 

 I suppose "3 expats who have become Thai Citizens and 2 who are in the application process", doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

[RotBenz8888]

20 years in Thailand, married to a Thai, 2 kids together, speak read and write Thai language, yet only a guest. I'm grateful they let me extend my stay with 90d at the time. 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, realfunster said:

 

 I suppose "3 expats who have become Thai Citizens and 2 who are in the application process", doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Nice story but always somebody who needs to moan.

[Scot123]

48 minutes ago, RotBenz8888 said:

20 years in Thailand, married to a Thai, 2 kids together, speak read and write Thai language, yet only a guest. I'm grateful they let me extend my stay with 90d at the time. 

I take it your being sarcastic?

[pokpok345]

1 hour ago, Scot123 said:

I take it your being sarcastic?

*you're ????

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

What a big can of fresh B.S: this was. Naturalisation???? Really? I think all of them did a fair judgement about how much money they could make in shifting citizenship. What other reason might be?

[Pilotman]

I love being here, love the Thai family and love what we have here as a lifestyle, but I have absolutely no 'cultural' empathy with Thailand.  I don't share or respect their religion, or their history.  I don't share their politics, or their outlook.  I would not take Thai citizenship if they offered it unconditionally for 100 Baht. 

[The Farang]

2 hours ago, Pilotman said:

I love being here, love the Thai family and love what we have here as a lifestyle, but I have absolutely no 'cultural' empathy with Thailand.  I don't share or respect their religion, or their history.  I don't share their politics, or their outlook.  I would not take Thai citizenship if they offered it unconditionally for 100 Baht. 

Not only that you have to denounce your own country's citizenship.   I would never give up my country's citizenship just to be accepted in Thailand. 

[VocalNeal]

21 minutes ago, The Farang said:

I would never give up my country's citizenship

 

As they say "Up to You"

[realfunster]

25 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Nice story but always somebody who needs to moan.

 

Just a flippant but accurate observation, the title is factually incorrect. 

Even for ahem, 'journalism', such as Tatler, I think we can expect better. 

[John Drake]

Doris Gold Wibunsin sounds as if she has lived an interesting and satisfying life.

[Pilotman]

11 hours ago, The Farang said:

Not only that you have to denounce your own country's citizenship.   I would never give up my country's citizenship just to be accepted in Thailand. 

are you sure of that?  My wife and daughter are both duel citizens, Brit and Thai. 

[thaiowl]

I have a couple of friends who have Thai nationality and three more who are in the process. I got PR in 2012 but didn't bother to apply for nationality. Don't need to own land in my own name or vote etc etc.

[philba]

11 hours ago, The Farang said:

Not only that you have to denounce your own country's citizenship.   I would never give up my country's citizenship just to be accepted in Thailand. 

You're SUPPOSED to, but they don't actually check.

 

 

[thedemon]

26 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

are you sure of that?  My wife and daughter are both duel citizens, Brit and Thai. 

 

As part of the application process a document stating the applicants intention to renounce their original nationality needs to be submitted. However since it is only an intention, the applicant can change their mind and presumably no one ever actually goes through with the renunciation after receiving Thai citizenship.

 

Could a future government decide to force those nationalized Thai citizens to renounce their original citizenship? Personally I don't think it is likely but no one can say for sure. Should it happen, many of those affected might choose to give up their acquired Thai citizenship rather than their original one because the latter comes with a better travel document. In that case they may well be left with no right to remain in Thailand. It is the reason why some foreigners that have permanent residence in Thailand choose not to go a step further and apply for Thai nationality even though they likely would qualify for it.

 

The above only applies to Thai citizenship acquired by naturalization. It does not apply to anyone that is Thai by birth and subsequently acquires another citizenship. So it wouldn't affect any "influential" Thais with dual nationality.

[Purdey]

I am a bit unclear about the word naturalization. Does it mean after a certain time you can become Thai by nature of you haveing lived here a long time or is it applied whenever you apply for citizenship regardless of the length of time?

I have read about hill tribes people getting Thai citizenship and wonder how they did the paperwork.

[RocketDog]

18 hours ago, Pilotman said:

I love being here, love the Thai family and love what we have here as a lifestyle, but I have absolutely no 'cultural' empathy with Thailand.  I don't share or respect their religion, or their history.  I don't share their politics, or their outlook.  I would not take Thai citizenship if they offered it unconditionally for 100 Baht. 

What would be the downside besides not seeing your buddies at immigration every three months? 

[TigerandDog]

16 hours ago, The Farang said:

Not only that you have to denounce your own country's citizenship.   I would never give up my country's citizenship just to be accepted in Thailand. 

depends where your home country is. Most countries allow dual citizenship. I know that if I was to ever consider Thai citizenship that I would NOT have to denounce my aussie citizenship.

[Pilotman]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

What would be the downside besides not seeing your buddies at immigration every three months? 

almost everything.  I would not want to be associated with the Country as a Nation. Frankly, its too backward, its history too ambiguous and its culture, even now ,  too alien.  I could never be proud to be Thai.   

Edited January 26, 2021 by Pilotman

[Pilotman]

5 hours ago, thedemon said:

 

As part of the application process a document stating the applicants intention to renounce their original nationality needs to be submitted. However since it is only an intention, the applicant can change their mind and presumably no one ever actually goes through with the renunciation after receiving Thai citizenship.

 

Could a future government decide to force those nationalized Thai citizens to renounce their original citizenship? Personally I don't think it is likely but no one can say for sure. Should it happen, many of those affected might choose to give up their acquired Thai citizenship rather than their original one because the latter comes with a better travel document. In that case they may well be left with no right to remain in Thailand. It is the reason why some foreigners that have permanent residence in Thailand choose not to go a step further and apply for Thai nationality even though they likely would qualify for it.

 

The above only applies to Thai citizenship acquired by naturalization. It does not apply to anyone that is Thai by birth and subsequently acquires another citizenship. So it wouldn't affect any "influential" Thais with dual nationality.

another very good reason to steer clear of Citizenship.  What those Naturalised people seen to want to ignore, is that they will never be Thai in any real sense and will always be third class citizens, unloved and largely ignored.   In addition, who wants to learn a language fluently, that is only spoken by circa 70 million people,  out of a world population of  7.8 Billion.  What an utter waste of time and energy. 

[Pilotman]

4 hours ago, Purdey said:

I am a bit unclear about the word naturalization. Does it mean after a certain time you can become Thai by nature of you haveing lived here a long time or is it applied whenever you apply for citizenship regardless of the length of time?

I have read about hill tribes people getting Thai citizenship and wonder how they did the paperwork.

you can never be 'Thai' in any real sense  if you were not born here.  It's an 'approval  to stay',  for a farang to stay permanently without jumping through immigration hoops, nothing more.  

[RocketDog]

49 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

almost everything.  I would not want to be associated with the Country as a Nation. Frankly, its too backward, its history too ambiguous and its culture, even now ,  too alien.  I could never be proud to be Thai.   

Interesting observation. 

I've been here for 4 years and have found my feelings toward my home country USA trending in the same direction as your feelings about Thailand. I haven't been home in over two years, though the virus quashed plans for a visit last May. Now I don't plan a return for this year, and possibly next year as well. 

 

It begs the question of how proud any person can be of the history, culture, and society of their home country given that most countries have more than one skeleton in their closet and their own groups of home-grown idiots, criminals, and misguided/harmful governmental policies.

 

To turn the question around, what countries have such a pristine history and unblemished present as to be perpetually and highly attractive to foreigners? Does any contemporary country/government truly deserve unswerving, unquestioned, and unreasoned loyalty and fealty?  I don't personally believe in the hidden Utopia of Shangri-la. Every country I've been in has good and bad aspects. 

 

Of course any culture not your own is by definition alien. The challenge and opportunity open to a visitor is to make that culture natural to themselves. Often more understanding of a culture allows one to see the good as well as the bad. There is no question that visiting foreign lands gives one a much deeper perspective of other people's way of life as well as your own. People that have never left their home country are simply not qualified to properly judge their own country's relative standing. 

 

I would be loathe to surrender my USA citizenship for another country's, but I would quickly accept dual citizenship in Thailand as well. In any event, citizenship would give me a much more robust social, economic, and legal status here than I currently enjoy. I have no plans to ever repatriate to America barring severe health problems and have committed to making a good life here. 

 

At some point in life we all take a stand, hope for the best, and make the most of it. 

[Pilotman]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

Interesting observation. 

I've been here for 4 years and have found my feelings toward my home country USA trending in the same direction as your feelings about Thailand. I haven't been home in over two years, though the virus quashed plans for a visit last May. Now I don't plan a return for this year, and possibly next year as well. 

 

It begs the question of how proud any person can be of the history, culture, and society of their home country given that most countries have more than one skeleton in their closet and their own groups of home-grown idiots, criminals, and misguided/harmful governmental policies.

 

To turn the question around, what countries have such a pristine history and unblemished present as to be perpetually and highly attractive to foreigners? Does any contemporary country/government truly deserve unswerving, unquestioned, and unreasoned loyalty and fealty?  I don't personally believe in the hidden Utopia of Shangri-la. Every country I've been in has good and bad aspects. 

 

Of course any culture not your own is by definition alien. The challenge and opportunity open to a visitor is to make that culture natural to themselves. Often more understanding of a culture allows one to see the good as well as the bad. There is no question that visiting foreign lands gives one a much deeper perspective of other people's way of life as well as your own. People that have never left their home country are simply not qualified to properly judge their own country's relative standing. 

 

I would be loathe to surrender my USA citizenship for another country's, but I would quickly accept dual citizenship in Thailand as well. In any event, citizenship would give me a much more robust social, economic, and legal status here than I currently enjoy. I have no plans to ever repatriate to America barring severe health problems and have committed to making a good life here. 

 

At some point in life we all take a stand, hope for the best, and make the most of it. 

I agree with all that.  I can't say that 'proud' is the word I would use for my UK citizenship.  There was a time when I was proud, but not anymore.  Ambivalent would be a more appropriate word.   However, as much as anyone can, I understand my Country, its good points and bad points and I am culturally aligned with it, again, as much as anyone can be. I speak its language more than fluently.  I was educated and grew up within its systems, I even served in its Military for 24 years.  That bonds me to my home country in a way that any Naturalisation could never do, especially in Thailand. 

[lungbing]

Naturalised or not, they'll still be called 'farang' to their faces.

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, Purdey said:

I am a bit unclear about the word naturalization. Does it mean after a certain time you can become Thai by nature of you haveing lived here a long time or is it applied whenever you apply for citizenship regardless of the length of time?

I have read about hill tribes people getting Thai citizenship and wonder how they did the paperwork.

 

It's in the Nationality Act. There are 3 paths for expats  to apply for Thai nationality.

1. You have had permanent residence for 5 years and have been working with a work permit and salary of at least B80,000 per month continuously for the last three years.  You need to be able to speak Thai and sing the National and Royal Anthems.

2. You have a Thai wife (but not necessarily permanent residence) and have been working with a work permit and salary of at least B40,000 per month continuously for the last three years. You do not need to be able to speak Thai, although it is preferred, and you do not have to sing.

3. You are a woman with a Thai husband. You do not need to be working but your husband needs to be able show he has received income of at least B15,000 a month for the past year. You do not have to speak Thai or sing.

 

The stateless hill tribes and other minorities who were born in Thailand have another process to apply for Thai nationality, if they are qualified. They have to apply to their district offices and are often done in batches. Expats have to apply to Special Branch in their province. Bangkok Special Branch has a dedicated department for processing citizenship applications, which makes things much easier, but all the other provinces do not.  In practice this makes it virtually impossible for expats to apply for citizenship unless they live in Bangkok or a province like Chiang Mai, Chonburi or Phuket that has a lot of expats.  All  other provincial Special Branch offices with either refuse to accept the application or, worse still, offer to process it but ask for bribes and then screw it up.  The work around is to get on a friend's or relative's tabien baan in Bangkok and apply at the Bangkok office.  

[RocketDog]

2 hours ago, Pilotman said:

I agree with all that.  I can't say that 'proud' is the word I would use for my UK citizenship.  There was a time when I was proud, but not anymore.  Ambivalent would be a more appropriate word.   However, as much as anyone can, I understand my Country, its good points and bad points and I am culturally aligned with it, again, as much as anyone can be. I speak its language more than fluently.  I was educated and grew up within its systems, I even served in its Military for 24 years.  That bonds me to my home country in a way that any Naturalisation could never do, especially in Thailand. 

It's true I will always feel at home in America after living there for 66 years. Still, the last time I went back I saw it with different eyes. 

I suspect that over the next few years though I will feel as comfortable here as I would at home. Both countries are changing and so am I. It's complicated. 

But I'm here and I'm generally happy so I'll play along I guess. 

Good luck. I hope it gets better. 

[gamb00ler]

13 hours ago, Pilotman said:

are you sure of that?  My wife and daughter are both duel citizens, Brit and Thai. 

How many people have they shot?????  ????

Edited January 26, 2021 by gamb00ler

[DeaconJohn]

3 hours ago, lungbing said:

Naturalised or not, they'll still be called 'farang' to their faces.

There is no good reason not to be since the term 'farang' when used alone isn't a racial slur or derogatory in any way.

Anybody who has lived among Thais for any length of time knows that.

[GinBoy2]

6 hours ago, Pilotman said:

you can never be 'Thai' in any real sense  if you were not born here.  It's an 'approval  to stay',  for a farang to stay permanently without jumping through immigration hoops, nothing more.  

I kinda agree with that.

 

Whatever your passport might say, you will never really be Thai.

 

It's a stark contrast to other cultures, where once you become a citizen, you really are 'one of us'.

 

My son, obviously looks asian, yet as an American he lives and works in the US, and is just accepted as 'one of us'

I don't think that is necessarily true even as lukung's in Thailand. They are always viewed slightly differently, so the idea that a farang even with a Thai passport is 'one of us' strikes me as laughable

Edited January 26, 2021 by GinBoy2