1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

Well let me start by sayin - you are allowed your own opinion, you're just not allowed your own facts.

You have obviously written this with a pre-determined agenda that all things by all experts should be questioned on the basis that some of it can be wrong so therefore all of it should be under suspicion. This is blatantly not true. All of science works in a very pre-set way, where a hypothosis is ventured, tested and proved or disproved in a very set and peer reviewed way. If there are blatantly wrong they will be found out but it may take time for this to come to light. So in this example, perhaps the flu and pneominia vaccines my prove beneficial in the mitigating of Covid symptoms but equally so, they are not specifically created to combat Covid so the efficiency of them will always be questionable to vacines specifically created for Covid. This is now self-evident with actual vacines having efficiency rates of up to 90%.

The idea that  'We MUST listen to BOTH sides and then, make our OWN minds up as individuals, there is no right or wrong, it's all about perception' is blatantly false in the same way I don't question my accountant, mechanic, doctor or chef in their areas of expertise. I may get a second opinion but if that second opinion backs up the original opinion then I can be sure their knowledge is better than mine and go with their recommendations.

You talk of Dr Fauci, an esteemed physician-scientist and immunologist of some 50 years, who acted as an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan and through contributions to HIV/AIDS research and other immunodeficiency diseases was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom as a 'front line puppet' as if the man has purposely misled the American people in some sort of machiavellian plot with a sinister agenda where the reality is he has just given his expert opinion (updated as more information became available) to the benefit of the masses.

There is a very good reason why people are not encouraged to 'listen to anyone outside of the WHO, the CDC and the FDA who have not suggested any other medicines' because that way leads to quakery, misinformation and the exploitation of the gullible. There's no big plot to hide the truth or only push one agenda; the vacine is by far the safest and most reliable way out of this mess and that's a consistent message that should be applauded NOT condemned.

Yes there are two sides to a coin but when that coin lands on heads the other side is irrelevant. And to suggest otherwise can indeed be constued as a conspracy theory which I gather from 'being warned again or being suspended for my views' is something others have pointed out to you before. 

 

 

You only replied to less than half of my previous post, e.g. no mention as to why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to, never before have they had their hands tied or threatened to have their licenses revoked, some have. 

 

There are tens of thousands of professionals who have spoken out about this, biologists, virologists, epidemiologists, bio chemists, even the late Kary Mullis the PCR test inventor who said Dr Fauci shouldn't be in his position and should not be trusted, he didn't stop there, his opinion went on to point his finger to the administration, does that make this Nobel Prize winner a quake ?

 

 

If you took the time to listen to the above video, then listen to the below video on HIV, and how they blamed it on the gay community and why it took so long to correct the wrongs.

 

 

I can argue with you till eternity, fact of the matter is, you trust them, I don't, will I get vaccinate, yes, when, that is another story, because you and others say there is enough research and efficacy in the vaccines and they are good to go means squat to me and many others.

 

Does that make me an anti-vaxer, I don't care, you keep following your path, but please don't try and correct my opinions and facts, you have shown me nothing but words, ever heard of the saying; "say it enough times and people will believe it". 

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I do not see THEM, i.e. all world leaders listening to anyone outside of the WHO, the CDC and the FDA

Funny... my research has revealed that world leaders are only listening to their corporate overlords and generally ignoring or reacting late to the current advisories from the above-mentioned groups...

2 hours ago, Boricua67 said:

"I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"

 

That's how those of you who are afraid of covid are living. You're pathetic. You don't realize that every day you allow the governments around the world to dictate how you live, you lose your freedom.

 

I'd rather be dead than to continue to live like this.

Funny how many people believe that "freedom" is not directly proportional to "responsibility".

While the Thai Ministry of Health calls the Sinovac vaccine "Safe ", they conveniently

leave out the fact that it is NOT Efficient at 50% . As for the Sputnik vaccine, this comes

from a country that denies it poisons people or that the massive Olympic Doping Scandal

was just not true ( they were banned by the IOC ) .  There you have it. 2 vaccines most likely

at bargain basement prices with very few takers.

1 hour ago, sandhurstmolonski said:

I don't think there are many deniers , total deniers out there , but difference of opinion certainly , certainly that should never be squashed with legislation , never stop freedoms that's a one way street .

I would argue that nothing has changed in the last year and that Thailand is still doing extremely well ,bodies are hardly dropping in the streets . It's a virus , it was always here , best thing we can do is full out all stops for vaccinations  , and get on with life .

The only other thing I'd add is you can't have healthy asymptomatic using any hospital beds up , they need to be allowed to self isolate .

 

The key stat ..Total deaths all causes , and on this Thailand is a world leader , hence get on with life , keep those at risk safe , and obide by what is required , local business needs you , and we need gyms and pools open for fitness .

 

But nothing has changed , you always need to live with the virus , that's a fact .

A lot has changed. Increased covid deaths. increased covid infections,  new strain of covid, increased  rate of spread,  increased  speed of transmission. 

7 minutes ago, mberbae said:

While the Thai Ministry of Health calls the Sinovac vaccine "Safe ", they conveniently

leave out the fact that it is NOT Efficient at 50% . As for the Sputnik vaccine, this comes

from a country that denies it poisons people or that the massive Olympic Doping Scandal

was just not true ( they were banned by the IOC ) .  There you have it. 2 vaccines most likely

at bargain basement prices with very few takers.

What has Olympic cheating got to do science?

12 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Funny... my research has revealed that world leaders are only listening to their corporate overlords and generally ignoring or reacting late to the current advisories from the above-mentioned groups...

Which research of yours? Which corporate overlords?

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I think there has been quite a lot of conclusive evidence gathered since January 2020, being that it's 13 months ago now. 

And what 'deluge of mis-information' are you struggling with currently? Please let us know and I'm sure the more informed of us will try our level best to allay your confusion.

I'm now struggling to understand which side of the fence you're on.  I agree with you there has been a 'lot of conclusive evidence', but then then minutes later you post this in response to Libai

 

 

 

 

Which is why I'm struggling with the majority of contributions on the internet. Can you also supply the names of those 'more informed' so that I'm 100% sure the advice given allays my confusion. 

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

I have never heard anyone call the covid virus a hoax. 

 

Does anyone have a link?

 

Lots of posts in here by Doctors. Nurses, EMTs etc about Covid deniers.

 

 

I assumed a "Covid denier" was someone who denied it was very serious but apparently there are many people that deny it actually exists. Not sure how you get to that place in your life ?

38 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

You only replied to less than half of my previous post, e.g. no mention as to why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to, never before have they had their hands tied or threatened to have their licenses revoked, some have. 

 

There are tens of thousands of professionals who have spoken out about this, biologists, virologists, epidemiologists, bio chemists, even the late Kary Mullis the PCR test inventor who said Dr Fauci shouldn't be in his position and should not be trusted, he didn't stop there, his opinion went on to point his finger to the administration, does that make this Nobel Prize winner a quake ?

 

 

If you took the time to listen to the above video, then listen to the below video on HIV, and how they blamed it on the gay community and why it took so long to correct the wrongs.

 

 

I can argue with you till eternity, fact of the matter is, you trust them, I don't, will I get vaccinate, yes, when, that is another story, because you and others say there is enough research and efficacy in the vaccines and they are good to go means squat to me and many others.

 

Does that make me an anti-vaxer, I don't care, you keep following your path, but please don't try and correct my opinions and facts, you have shown me nothing but words, ever heard of the saying; "say it enough times and people will believe it". 

Don't make your opinions public on a discussion  forum if you  don't want them corrected. You lose that right when you go public asserting eccentric  beliefs  which counter medical history and common sense.  I used words on a words based forum to draw your attention to obvious flaws in your  unfounded opinions by reference to the smallpox immunization campaign. Would you prefer braille? Your last cliche is meaningless unless you are applying it to what you have heard and swayed you do accept anti science nutters...No doubt you were promoting 5G Covid theory last year. I reiterate: if you don't want your views examined and criticized just repeat them in an echo chamber of similar conspiracy activists. But here you will be scrutinized and held to account.

22 minutes ago, mberbae said:

While the Thai Ministry of Health calls the Sinovac vaccine "Safe ", they conveniently

leave out the fact that it is NOT Efficient at 50% . As for the Sputnik vaccine, this comes

from a country that denies it poisons people or that the massive Olympic Doping Scandal

was just not true ( they were banned by the IOC ) .  There you have it. 2 vaccines most likely

at bargain basement prices with very few takers.

Germans are traveling  to Moscow  to get the Sputnik  virus and happy to pay for it.

6 hours ago, rooster59 said:

The health ministry said that Sinovac was safe but its efficacy when compared to other vaccines needs to be transparently announced so that people can make clear choices.

 

So clearly you are in favour of freedom of speech then?

 

As I wrote in another thread, suppression of free speech has been occurring all over the world with regards to reporting on Covid and criticism or open debate that questions the prevailing narrative from WHO and governments (and vaccine producers).

 

There is a world of difference between fake news (stuff that's just made up without any grounding in fact) and a counter argument (views expressed on the basis of real data and experience that question another point of view), yet the latter is being brutally suppressed.

 

I believe that open debate should be allowed and encouraged. The admonition to trust only the views presented by proponents of one course of action is both undemocratic and unscientific.

 

Governments and agents of suppression will do well to remember that tuning out opposing viewpoints doesn't make them go away.

 

 

5 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Don't make your opinions public on a discussion  forum if you  don't want them corrected. You lose that right when you go public asserting eccentric  beliefs  which counter medical history and common sense.  I used words on a words based forum to draw your attention to obvious flaws in your  unfounded opinions by reference to the smallpox immunization campaign. Would you prefer braille? Your last cliche is meaningless unless you are applying it to what you have heard and swayed you do accept anti science nutters...No doubt you were promoting 5G Covid theory last year. I reiterate: if you don't want your views examined and criticized just repeat them in an echo chamber of similar conspiracy activists. But here you will be scrutinized and held to account.

 

Braille, is that the best you've got.

3 hours ago, robblok said:

I agree that there should be freedom of speech but is that the same as freedom to lie ?

 

Especially if those lies put others in danger.

 

Its a slippery slope but those "village idiots" eh i mean covid deniers are influencing other people and making people break the rules thus endangering others.

 

Like Rooster said, there are still people denying the holocaust, we all know that it happend why should they be allowed to lie about it. That is not freedom of speech or a different opinion. That is a lie. Same goes for many covid deniers. Sure you can have some remarks about the finer points and efficiancy but that is it.

 

Also those anti vaxers were talking about how many people would die.. i believe close to or over 1 billion vaccinated already. Where are all the people that are dropping dead.. or growing a third arm (you know it messes with your DNA is one of those claims).

Sure there have been deaths, but that happens with all medicine. As long as the cure is not much more lethal then the disease its a moot point. But it has to be said the number of deaths because of vaccination are miniscule compared to the number of vaccinations. Now compare that to covid deaths.

 

Its time that antivaxers and covid deniers are called what they are the fruitcakes (and that is naming it nicely)

 

Hopping from one theory to an other each time forgetting that their previous theories have been debunked. Never looking back at their track record and thinking that they might be wrong. People should look down onto these strange people.

 

I am still amazed because some of those people are actually not stupid, some are even smart. Then again religious people are the same so i should not be so surprised. Some people just can't accept logic and the truth if it does not conform to their opinion.

 

Everyone hates this virus and wants it to be over, the efforts of anti vaxers and covid deniers are making this harder.

 

Maybe those caught doing it should be made to work at a hospital among covid patients. Then they can explain to those patients how they are not sick and that they are not dying from the disease but from their other health conditions. I am sure that would be a fun conversation.

 

 

Great post robblok, and you just beat me to it because you have said everything that I wanted to say, and in particular that there should be freedom of speech but if that freedom of speech means spreading lies, then it is far too damaging to just let go.

 

Anyway you said it all for me, so well done, and thanks, on that score.

32 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Funny... my research has revealed that world leaders are only listening to their corporate overlords and generally ignoring or reacting late to the current advisories from the above-mentioned groups...

 

Don't lose your day job.

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Braille, is that the best you've got.

No. If you find words troublesome I could use semaphore or sign language. You have the problem with words as a medium not me. Try reading what you write before you post.

3 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Don't lose your day job.

Assuming  he has one!

41 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

You only replied to less than half of my previous post, e.g. no mention as to why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to, never before have they had their hands tied or threatened to have their licenses revoked, some have. 

 

There are tens of thousands of professionals who have spoken out about this, biologists, virologists, epidemiologists, bio chemists, even the late Kary Mullis the PCR test inventor who said Dr Fauci shouldn't be in his position and should not be trusted, he didn't stop there, his opinion went on to point his finger to the administration, does that make this Nobel Prize winner a quake ?

 

 

If you took the time to listen to the above video, then listen to the below video on HIV, and how they blamed it on the gay community and why it took so long to correct the wrongs.

 

 

I can argue with you till eternity, fact of the matter is, you trust them, I don't, will I get vaccinate, yes, when, that is another story, because you and others say there is enough research and efficacy in the vaccines and they are good to go means squat to me and many others.

 

Does that make me an anti-vaxer, I don't care, you keep following your path, but please don't try and correct my opinions and facts, you have shown me nothing but words, ever heard of the saying; "say it enough times and people will believe it". 

Nothing I saw on that video causes me to overturn the wisdom behind over a hundred of years of vaccine  success from which the whole of humanity has benefited. There are always disaffected people, some ill spirited, some sincere, some political motivated rarely correct. If that video is all it took to turn you then you may well be a danger to yourself. I bet you got all your jabs as a kid!

39 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

You only replied to less than half of my previous post, e.g. no mention as to why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to, never before have they had their hands tied or threatened to have their licenses revoked, some have. 

 

There are tens of thousands of professionals who have spoken out about this, biologists, virologists, epidemiologists, bio chemists, even the late Kary Mullis the PCR test inventor who said Dr Fauci shouldn't be in his position and should not be trusted, he didn't stop there, his opinion went on to point his finger to the administration, does that make this Nobel Prize winner a quake ?

 

 

If you took the time to listen to the above video, then listen to the below video on HIV, and how they blamed it on the gay community and why it took so long to correct the wrongs.

 

 

I can argue with you till eternity, fact of the matter is, you trust them, I don't, will I get vaccinate, yes, when, that is another story, because you and others say there is enough research and efficacy in the vaccines and they are good to go means squat to me and many others.

 

Does that make me an anti-vaxer, I don't care, you keep following your path, but please don't try and correct my opinions and facts, you have shown me nothing but words, ever heard of the saying; "say it enough times and people will believe it". 

Not entirley sure about your reading comprehension because I did address the part of 'why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to' with my statement 'There is a very good reason why people are not encouraged to 'listen to anyone outside of the WHO, the CDC and the FDA who have not suggested any other medicines' because that way leads to quakery, misinformation and the exploitation of the gullible.' 

And maybe Kary Mullis wasn't a complete quake but he had an acknowledged history of drinking and drug use and was 'none too fond of many scientists. “Scientists are doing an awful lot of damage to the world in the name of helping it,” he told The Times in 1998. “I don’t mind attacking my own fraternity because I am ashamed of it.”   https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/15/science/kary-b-mullis-dead.html so perhaps not the most objective and up to date commentators on this,  particularly since he died some 6 months before the pandemic.

But since facts and peer reviewed evidence 'means squat' to you, I can't imagine anytrhing I say here changing your opinion so best of luck in that echo chamber of yours and I hope it all works out for you

1 hour ago, Never Been Abroad said:

Sadly censorship on social media is already becoming automated. 

 

What dystopian nightmare are we heading for? ???? 

 

 

FB and Instagram and Twitter are the Distopian future. The sooner people dump them the better.

23 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Great post robblok, and you just beat me to it because you have said everything that I wanted to say, and in particular that there should be freedom of speech but if that freedom of speech means spreading lies, then it is far too damaging to just let go.

 

Anyway you said it all for me, so well done, and thanks, on that score.

You just wrote what I have been thinking, and i agree that @robblok's post was excellent.....HOWEVER.....there is a part of me that just cannot accept censorship of ideas no matter how much I disagree with them.  I WAS  something of a conspiracy theorist, but this last year has led me to do a lot more research into many things other than but including Covid and i would now say that I tend to look at most conspiracy theories as just that - theories - some with more or less merit than others - usually less!

 

But I still believe and cannot be shaken from the belief that to deny  people the right to express opinion, however mad i might think that opinion is, is just WRONG....as wrong as the Nazis burning books for example or N Korea denying access to the Internet.

 

There's a saying:     "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It" which has been attributed to Voltaire and, is often said to be the "first principle of free speech". I agree with it 100% 

1 hour ago, Johnnyb2good said:

100% DENIER. Absolutely and unequivocally. 
 

And for the record, also: anti medical tyranny, anti vax, pro freedom, pro legitimate (not junk) science/data, pro family, pro truth.

 

Any questions?

 

i would admit that I agree with you......... but if you mean what you say then you (and maybe me )  are in such a minority that our "truths"  are seen as "dangerous and despicable".

 

Having said that,  if i did openly agree with you I would be so paranoid that you probably are just calling me to come out from behind the tree and follow you.  Whooooooosh,

goes the bullet as it penetrates my heart.    

8 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Not entirley sure about your reading comprehension because I did address the part of 'why Dr's were banned from treating their patients with what they as medical experts have a right to' with my statement 'There is a very good reason why people are not encouraged to 'listen to anyone outside of the WHO, the CDC and the FDA who have not suggested any other medicines' because that way leads to quakery, misinformation and the exploitation of the gullible.' 

And maybe Kary Mullis wasn't a complete quake but he had an acknowledged history of drinking and drug use and was 'none too fond of many scientists. “Scientists are doing an awful lot of damage to the world in the name of helping it,” he told The Times in 1998. “I don’t mind attacking my own fraternity because I am ashamed of it.”   https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/15/science/kary-b-mullis-dead.html so perhaps not the most objective and up to date commentators on this,  particularly since he died some 6 months before the pandemic.

But since facts and peer reviewed evidence 'means squat' to you, I can't imagine anytrhing I say here changing your opinion so best of luck in that echo chamber of yours and I hope it all works out for you

Well Said

28 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Don't lose your day job.

I haven't worked for decades ????????????

4 minutes ago, VBF said:

You just wrote what I have been thinking, and i agree that @robblok's post was excellent.....HOWEVER.....there is a part of me that just cannot accept censorship of ideas no matter how much I disagree with them.  I WAS  something of a conspiracy theorist, but this last year has led me to do a lot more research into many things other than but including Covid and i would now say that I tend to look at most conspiracy theories as just that - theories - some with more or less merit than others - usually less!

 

But I still believe and cannot be shaken from the belief that to deny  people the right to express opinion, however mad i might think that opinion is, is just WRONG....as wrong as the Nazis burning books for example or N Korea denying access to the Internet.

 

There's a saying:     "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It" which has been attributed to Voltaire and, is often said to be the "first principle of free speech". I agree with it 100% 

I can see where you're coming from, however I do believe that with freedom of speech comes responsibility.

 

For example if I were to post that I have a cure for the virus and that involves putting a plastic bag over your head and tying it round your neck for 20 minutes and you will not be affected by the virus any more (in fact you will die). Then that could be construed as being allowed because of freedom of speech?

 

I will not accept that one can defend someone's right to tell blatant lies/untruths, some of which may well end in a person's death.

 

Opinions are one thing, damaging, even life-threatening, lies and untruths deserve to be curtailed  and/or punished.

25 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

 

Governments and agents of suppression will do well to remember that tuning out opposing viewpoints doesn't make them go away.

yep..... they have brainwashing,   blackballing,  prisons and torture for that 

1 minute ago, xylophone said:

I can see where you're coming from, however I do believe that with freedom of speech comes responsibility.

 

For example if I were to post that I have a cure for the virus and that involves putting a plastic bag over your head and tying it round your neck for 20 minutes and you will not be affected by the virus any more (in fact you will die). Then that could be construed as being allowed because of freedom of speech?

 

I will not accept that one can defend someone's right to tell blatant lies/untruths, some of which may well end in a person's death.

 

Opinions are one thing, damaging, even life-threatening, lies and untruths deserve to be curtailed  and/or punished.

Does the fault lie with the liar or with the rube? Is there no personal responsibility in your world. Is it not incumbent on you to determine if putting a bag over your head is a good idea or not? 

1 hour ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Conversations don't have links

 

Conversations on the internet do, yes?

 

Again, I don’t know anyone, nor have I read anyone that thinks the virus is a hoax. 

 

That said, it does seem that if one is not terrified of the virus or disagrees with some government policy they are accused of calling the virus a hoax.

I have the T-shirt.

5 hours ago, DaLa said:

I’m confused, firstly by the multitude of ‘professional’ advice over covid-19, its effect physiologically and financially; now I’m confused that you are calling for a ban on freedom of speech.

 

It didn’t help that the WHO on January 14th 2020 twittered that they had found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus.

 

I don’t know who to thank most, our northerly neighbours for introducing this problem to the world or the internet for the deluge of mis-information.

 

don't forget to blame Congo for bringing HIV to the world.