China’s poverty solution hailed as model for Thailand

[connda]

"Well, Thailand does border Texas does it not?  So Thais are just being ungrateful for all that Uncle Sam does for its southern neighbor  <miffed>."
Ahhh, Thailand is a stone's throw from China, not America.....
????????????

[connda]

6 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

What, these critics think it's a bad thing to have friendly diplomatic, commercial, and cultural ties with a country of 1.4B people just to the country's north? (And which is well on its way to bring the world's largest economy.)

Yeah.  They actually do think it's a bad thing.  Third-world and developing countries are only supposed to kiss the boots of Western capitalists.
"But the evil Chinese will take advantage of these poor countries!!!"
People don't study the history imperialistic conquests of Western countries.  As long as Westerner's get cheap stuff they don't ask the hard questions. Study the history of European, UK, and US military and economic power projection into Africa, the Middle East, Central, and South East Asia, oh...and South America (Manifest Destiny).  And study Mckinder's Heartland Theory as well as The Great Game. 
One should wash their hands before pointing fingers.  Just saying.  There are no "good guys", only national interests. 

[MrJ2U]

Oh please stop this insane love affair with China!

[mbenson]

What solution is that? The Cultural Revolution?

[bangon04]

12 hours ago, The Cipher said:

 

Do you by any chance have a source for poverty reduction in China being driven specifically by sex selective abortion rather than, I don't know, export-oriented industrialization?

The one child policy was derided and despised by western liberals at the time. However it cannot be denied that China's economy and prosperity grew exponentially during the time period.

Is it better to have 10 children with inadequate food, water, medicine and education?  or 2 children with much better prospects for success? Of course the western liberals will always be ready to pay for the upbringing of the 10 children in wartorn and famine areas. But Thailand cannot really claim to be war-torn or in famine.

[bendejo]

4 hours ago, josthomz said:

The money mentality is something which I've only seen in China, and trust me, it is a good thing.

 

You'll also see this in the Chinese diaspora, especially in countries with large ethnic Chinese communities.  Malaysia and Indonesia, for example.  Talk to nearly any young (-ish) Chinese fellow and you'll see what I mean.  I met an Irish woman who taught English in KL, she said all these guys want to talk about is money, it was driving her mad.  Another side to this is the snobbish attitude many of this community have toward the other citizens of these countries, and of course the locals don't appreciate it.  In Malaysia there are laws limiting ethnic Chinese on many levels (from land ownership to public school admission), and it was only a few decades ago that there was a "long knives" reaction in Indonesia.

 

As for the rest of the world, I suggest doing a little reading on the Belt & Road initiative to give you an idea of how China envisions its future.  It bears a resemblance to what was called The Domino Theory in the Cold War era, but on a much grander scale.  While the African tyrants are willing to sell minerals rights to China, the locals aren't too keen on the concept, and at times the Chinese workers meet their demise in a most brutal fashion.  My guess is that is why most of Africa is without color in the map on this page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

 

 

 

 

[ravip]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

The more Thailand turns to the Chinese the less welcome we will be here.

The priority #1 is for the country to prosper. Later things will fall into place.

One cannot expect a country to be perpetually poor for the sake of foreigners.

 

[EricTh]

17 hours ago, vandeventer said:

It sounds like we picked the wrong place to retire?

What do you expect when you are right at China's door-step? Not just Thailand but also Laos, Vietnam and Myanmar.

 

Many citizens in Thailand who you think are ethnic Thai are actually ethnic Chinese. They are the second largest ethnic group in Thailand at 15%. If you count the mixed Chinese & Tai race, then it is even higher at 40%.

 

Some of the food that you think are Thai are actually Chinese food like chicken rice.

 

The only safe countries for Americans are Mexico and Latin America where they are also right at America's door-step.

Edited May 16, 2021 by EricTh

[ravip]

6 hours ago, bendejo said:

 

You'll also see this in the Chinese diaspora, especially in countries with large ethnic Chinese communities.  Malaysia and Indonesia, for example.  Talk to nearly any young (-ish) Chinese fellow and you'll see what I mean.  I met an Irish woman who taught English in KL, she said all these guys want to talk about is money, it was driving her mad.  Another side to this is the snobbish attitude many of this community have toward the other citizens of these countries, and of course the locals don't appreciate it.  In Malaysia there are laws limiting ethnic Chinese on many levels (from land ownership to public school admission), and it was only a few decades ago that there was a "long knives" reaction in Indonesia.

 

As for the rest of the world, I suggest doing a little reading on the Belt & Road initiative to give you an idea of how China envisions its future.  It bears a resemblance to what was called The Domino Theory in the Cold War era, but on a much grander scale.  While the African tyrants are willing to sell minerals rights to China, the locals aren't too keen on the concept, and at times the Chinese workers meet their demise in a most brutal fashion.  My guess is that is why most of Africa is without color in the map on this page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

 

 

 

 

Belt & Road - It is like history repeating it self.

"Commonwealth "comes to mind.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, ravip said:

The priority #1 is for the country to prosper. Later things will fall into place.

One cannot expect a country to be perpetually poor for the sake of foreigners.

 

 

In what way is Thailand perpetually poor?

Chinese influence has only been manifest here for the last 10 years or so. Prior to that the growth in Thai GDP and affluence was mostly because of western money flowing in.

But that Chinese money comes at a price. Have a look at Laos for what awaits Thailand.

[Chang_paarp]

Careful what you wish for......

[ravip]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

In what way is Thailand perpetually poor?

Chinese influence has only been manifest here for the last 10 years or so. Prior to that the growth in Thai GDP and affluence was mostly because of western money flowing in.

But that Chinese money comes at a price. Have a look at Laos for what awaits Thailand.

Around 2018, Thailand had the second-largest economy in Southeast Asia, which was due to it's exports. Hence, attributing that success to 'western money flowing in' per se is a misnomer.

Chinese money comes at a price - correct. It is the 'borrowers' responsibility to manage that.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch IMHO

[The Cipher]

27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But that Chinese money comes at a price.

 

I mean, funds from Western countries and international organizations have their own respective 'prices' as well. The terms are just different than China's (for better or worse).

[vandeventer]

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

What do you expect when you are right at China's door-step? Not just Thailand but also Laos, Vietnam and Myanmar.

 

Many citizens in Thailand who you think are ethnic Thai are actually ethnic Chinese. They are the second largest ethnic group in Thailand at 15%. If you count the mixed Chinese & Tai race, then it is even higher at 40%.

 

Some of the food that you think are Thai are actually Chinese food like chicken rice.

 

The only safe countries for Americans are Mexico and Latin America where they are also right at America's door-step.

Sorry, It was only a joke as I lived here over 20 years now.

[John Drake]

I think many aspects of the Chinese model would benefit Thailand.

 

And I will proudly point towards this post as evidence of my worthiness for my next visa extension with Thai Immigration and their PRC guest observers.

[Mr Meeseeks]

10 hours ago, bangon04 said:

Is it better to have 10 children with inadequate food, water, medicine and education?  or 2 children with much better prospects for success?

Ask India for the answer to that question.

[Burma Bill]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:28 AM, webfact said:

to learn from China about how to reduce the poverty rate.

 

 

[gearbox]

14 hours ago, josthomz said:

 

I agree with you on this one. I lived several years in Mainland China, and still keep doing some business with them. 

 

Very few people in China are interested in discussing politics or anything on that line. All that matters to them is money, and a second spent discussing politics is a second they can't spend making money. 

 

Very few people in Thailand have this in themselves. The money mentality is something which I've only seen in China, and trust me, it is a good thing. They can make a business and make money out of unthinkable things.

 

Really impressive. 

'The East Asians value education and are prepared to study and work harder. And this is what one needs to succeed in today's world. They also take a long view,  with one or two generations ahead.

 

One doesn't need to go to China to see this,  just look at the Chinese and East Asians in the multi-ethnic countries like Australia and the US. The Chinese-Australians are around 5.6% of the population, but mint probably 20%+ of the graduate doctors, engineers and accountants. It is rare to see an East Asian working as a truck driver, bricklayer or council workers.

 

Australia rarely publish ethnic split statistics for most things, but these are much more common in US.

 

Here is the ethnic split of the newly accepted medical students in the US 2020-2021:

 

https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-acceptance-rates-by-race

 

Asian-Americans are around 5.4% of the US population, yet the new medical students with that background are more than 20%.

 

I haven't been much here but didn't see abundance of desire to study or any long term planning with the Thais I know...so IMO it is doubtful that any Chinese or Korean models can be applied successfully here. One thing in common is they do talk a lot about money too ????

 

[The Cipher]

20 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Asian-Americans are around 5.4% of the US population, yet the new medical students with that background are more than 20%.

 

Can confirm that in Canada, people of Northeast Asian and Indian ethnicity make up a disproportionate percentage of elite white collar pros relative to their share of the population. Can also find some Iranians. Other (non-white) minorities however, are rare.

 

31 minutes ago, gearbox said:

I haven't been much here but didn't see abundance of desire to study

 

My girlfriend went to grade school in Thailand and has mentioned that she had to hustle to numerous tutors on evenings/weekends. Studying at the library/cafe was a common activity for her as well (and still is). However I think it might be a minority of Thais who do that, and not the ones who would most benefit from additional education.

 

36 minutes ago, gearbox said:

I haven't been much here but didn't see abundance of desire to study or any long term planning with the Thais I know

 

In general I think that the relaxed cultural attitude to life, as well as the staunch unwillingness to delay gratification is what is holding most people in Thailand back. Encouraging long term planning and an understanding of 'working smart vs. working hard' would also be very helpful here.

 

 

[Redline]

Take their land and force them to move to the cities and work in factories~very nice.  It's corruption, greed and lack of education that are the problems~Quite easily fixed actually~China still has a very big problem with it's poor.

Take a look at China Observer on Youtube~a good reality check~counter on CCP propaganda.  Very interesting, and not all negative

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

 

I mean, funds from Western countries and international organizations have their own respective 'prices' as well. The terms are just different than China's (for better or worse).

 

Western countries and organisations dont tend to put pressure on countries to actively make life difficult for minority groups.

[Redline]

China helps authoritarian governments stay authoritarian, and these governments cheat their own people keeping them dirt poor, but giving China money for projects for corruption kickbacks~this is well known policy.

 

This is their project~the weak cannot fight back~the same strategy they use at home with surveillance.

 

China Observer on Youtube has good videos

 

Many top officials in the CCP have land, wealth and houses in democratic countries.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Redline

[wprime]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:31 PM, TheFreqFlyer said:

True, but their IQ is many points lower than that of the mainland Chinese. 

 

Aside from some business dealings, which only Chinese speaking Thais will be successful in (and not many Thais can speak Chinese), and some admiration of how the Chinese run their country with an iron fist, Chinese-Thais and mainland Chinese don't have much in common.

 

I find urban Chinese-Thais, especially the yellow shirts (and even some red shirt leaning ones) to be highly authoritarian in their views. Your average Chinese is generally not like that. If they are, it's because they're brainwashed, but most are quite reasonable people. I find many urban Chinese-Thais to be a bunch of religious cultists, who know nothing but government worship. They rarely possess the skills or knowledge to innovate or do anything to make their country a better place. 

 

This contrasts significantly with the mainland Chinese, many of whom have this business acumen that Thais simply don't possess. Unless you're CP or Minor (run by a naturalized Thai originally from the USA, Bill Heinecke) or Central Group, you don't stand a chance at making it here. Thailand is a hostile country for SMEs. Unlike China - where as a Chinese citizen, the government encourages and allows relative freedom in private enterprise. 

 

He's talking about Sino-Thais in leadership positions, you clearly are not.

[The Cipher]

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Western countries and organisations dont tend to put pressure on countries to actively make life difficult for minority groups.

 

No, but they do tend to impose their values on other cultures. Sometimes this is good (fiscal discipline) and sometimes it is not good (the universality of the franchise).

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

No, but they do tend to impose their values on other cultures. Sometimes this is good (fiscal discipline) and sometimes it is not good (the universality of the franchise).

 

Each to their own. I think I would rather live in a country influenced by the west than the corrupt Chinese communist party.

Probably a lot of people in Hong Kong would agree with me.

[The Cipher]

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Probably a lot of people in Hong Kong would agree with me.

 

Sure. And a lot of them wouldn't.

 

I used to work in Hong Kong and like the 'old' (pre-2014) Hong Kong better, from back before there was any mass unrest. I'm not really a fan of the CCP but their model does have merits in addition to its detriments. Similarly the West's model has merits in addition to detriments.

 

My point was that it isn't solely China that sets non-financial terms for funding, and ultimately it's up to the borrower which terms (if any) they prefer.

[connda]

17 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

Oh please stop this insane love affair with China!

Oh please stop this insane hatred of all things China.

[connda]

1 hour ago, Redline said:

Take their land and force them to move to the cities and work in factories~very nice.

This is Western Agenda 2030 in a nutshell. That is what is being proposed in the name of climate change and sustainability.
China - "Bad"
West - "Good"
No - it is all relative.

[connda]

1 hour ago, Redline said:

China helps authoritarian governments stay authoritarian, and these governments cheat their own people keeping them dirt poor, but giving China money for projects for corruption kickbacks~this is well known policy.

You need to study Western imperialism.  What you've described sounds exactly like the Western model of imposing their interests on poor but resource rich nations. 
Buy the political power at the top, rape the resource, spit on the poor, build a soccer stadium, claim moral success.
China - "Bad"
West - "Good" 
Geo-political relativism at its finest.

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, connda said:

You need to study Western imperialism.  What you've described sounds exactly like the Western model of imposing their interests on poor but resource rich nations. 
Buy the political power at the top, rape the resource, spit on the poor, build a soccer stadium, claim moral success.
China - "Bad"
West - "Good" 
Geo-political relativism at its finest.

Which is a model the west grew out of a long time ago.

China however still does this.