Ivermectin: Yes, No or Maybe

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, ding said:

There are many RCT's showing IVM is effective, as well as retrospective/epidemiological studies.

Other studies were designed to fail.

The main problem with IVM is that it's off patent, not that it's off-label.

And yet, clinical trials have shown other off patent medications, such as Dexamethazone, to be effective in treating Covid symptoms.

[ding]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

And yet, clinical trials have shown other off patent medications, such as Dexamethazone, to be effective in treating Covid symptoms.

i have some of that too and bromhexine is good to have in the tool box , hard to get in usa, like hcq

Edited June 28, 2021 by ding

[ding]

12 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Typically, the more rigorous the clinical trial, the less effective Ivermectin is shown to be. It’s really effective when dispensed by a sole practitioner to his preferred patients.

The FLCCC does a good job of analyzing the trials' soundness;

https://covid19criticalcare.com

Cheap and effective IVM has a long and excellent safety profile.

Unlike Remdesivir which has a 6% heart arrhythmia incidence but is recommended anyway at $1K a pill.

[GeorgeCross]

5 minutes ago, ding said:

The FLCCC does a good job of analyzing the trials' soundness;

https://covid19criticalcare.com

Cheap and effective IVM has a long and excellent safety profile.

Unlike Remdesivir which has a 6% heart arrhythmia incidence but is recommended anyway at $1K a pill.

 

its not a cost thing. Dexamethasone is cheap, generic and proven to work in severe cases. IVM trial data is so far small scale and shaky but it is now being taken seriously and being tested by oxford university who i might add also tested dexamethasone and rendered it effective

 

fingers crossed it works a treatment is much more useful than a vaccine. especially a cheap one with a proven safety record.

 

[thasoss]

1 hour ago, Daithi85 said:

Time to give ivermectin a chance. Amazing  how countries are holding this back. 

they're holding it back because of pressure from big pharma....no money to be made.Anti virals are the way to go,over the counter medicine,but you need big doses at the first onset of covid symptoms. 

[Macrohistory]

47 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

 

agree & should find out soon

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial

 

 

 

Ivermectin has already failed a randomized controlled trial the results of which were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33662102/

 

Ivermectin is bunk for COVID-19, just another anti-vaxxer, COVID-denier Internet myth.

 

 

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, Macrohistory said:

 

Ivermectin has already failed a randomized controlled trial the results of which were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33662102/

 

Ivermectin is bunk for COVID-19, just another anti-vaxxer, COVID-denier Internet myth.

 

 

The basis of science is whether an experiment can be duplicated with the same results. That’s why the results of one study are not conclusive.

[Macrohistory]

5 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The basis of science is whether an experiment can be duplicated with the same results. That’s why the results of one study are not conclusive.

 

 

Great, here's another failed ivermectin study, just published this month:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33682640/

 

Knock yourself out.

 

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Macrohistory said:

Great, here's another failed ivermectin study, just published this month:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33682640/

 

Knock yourself out.

 

I am not arguing that these patent medicines work, only that one study doesn’t mean much. BTW, here’s the conclusion of your cited study:

 

”Conclusion: Although CQ, HCQ or ivermectin revealed a favorable safety profile, the tested drugs do not reduce the need for supplemental oxygen, ICU admission, invasive ventilation or death, in patients hospitalized with a severe form of COVID-19.”

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

You do notice that this is a TRIAL just started a few days ago, so no results know yet, though other countries trials have shown that ivermectin does NOT work.

That's not quite true. There have been a number of studies, some indicating it had no beneficial effect, others indicating that it did.

 

Part of the problem was that (whether these produced favourable results or not) these were all small studies, mostly clinician-led and funded - because no pharmaceutical company or government was willing to fund the large studies that would be needed to establish definitive results. 

 

The Oxford PRINCIPLE trial will hopefully give some definitive, reliable results one way or the other.

Edited June 28, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[ding]

1 hour ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

its not a cost thing. Dexamethasone is cheap, generic and proven to work in severe cases. IVM trial data is so far small scale and shaky but it is now being taken seriously and being tested by oxford university who i might add also tested dexamethasone and rendered it effective

 

fingers crossed it works a treatment is much more useful than a vaccine. especially a cheap one with a proven safety record.

 

agree.

did you get a few minutes to look at the site i linked? i'm guessing you'd like it.

[spacex]

Uttar Pradesh, population of 230 million has seen their cases plummet from 35K/day thanks to workers coming from other states, to 180 cases. It looks like it worked pretty well there.

 

https://twitter.com/jjchamie/status/1410085161392214021/photo/1

 

Uttrhkahand announced in May widespread use of ivermection.  Cases down 98%

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/ivermectin-tablet-uttarakhand-residents-prevent-covid-govt-1801863-2021-05-12

 

 

 

 

[rabas]

1 hour ago, spacex said:

Uttar Pradesh, population of 230 million has seen their cases plummet from 35K/day thanks to workers coming from other states, to 180 cases. It looks like it worked pretty well there.

 

https://twitter.com/jjchamie/status/1410085161392214021/photo/1

 

Uttrhkahand announced in May widespread use of ivermection.  Cases down 98%

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/ivermectin-tablet-uttarakhand-residents-prevent-covid-govt-1801863-2021-05-12

 

 

 

 

 

Correlation is not causation. You provide no evidence that Ivermectin caused the drop. Such peaks are common because strong rises trigger strong responses.

 

There is some proof it was not primarily due to Ivermectin. India's national graph shows a sharp peak at the same time, which is similar except much larger.  One would expect the national graph to be a bit broader because of timing but it is not.

 

I am not anti-Ivermectin, I have some. But we need to be objective.

[spacex]

33 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

Correlation is not causation. You provide no evidence that Ivermectin caused the drop. Such peaks are common because strong rises trigger strong responses.

 

There is some proof it was not primarily due to Ivermectin. India's national graph shows a sharp peak at the same time, which is similar except much larger.  One would expect the national graph to be a bit broader because of timing but it is not.

 

I am not anti-Ivermectin, I have some. But we need to be objective.

Feel free to review Juan Chamie's twitter.  He's been compiling data for many months and there sure seems to be countless coincidences from introduction of ivermectin to severly reduced cases and fatalities.   https://twitter.com/jjchamie/

 

Indonesia is now getting on the ivermectin train.   https://go.kompas.com/read/2021/06/29/024510474/indonesian-presidential-chief-of-staff-ivermectin-a-covid-19-cure

 

Let's see how Indo does in the areas that ivermectin is now being used in.

[Harry Om]

On 6/28/2021 at 9:59 AM, Macrohistory said:

 

Ivermectin has already failed a randomized controlled trial the results of which were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33662102/

 

Ivermectin is bunk for COVID-19, just another anti-vaxxer, COVID-denier Internet myth.

 

 

"The median time to resolution of symptoms was 10 days (IQR, 9-13) in the ivermectin group compared with 12 days (IQR, 9-13) in the placebo group"

 

It didn't reach statistical significance, but you were still better off being in the Ivermectin group.

 

It's worth noting that the claim with Ivermectin is that it works best if used early as possible to reduce viral load. Once you're in hospital then it's too late, the damage is already done. So some of these studies are after the horse has already bolted, so it's not suprising their findings aren't conclusive.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Harry Om

[Harry Om]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:12 AM, Macrohistory said:

 

 

Great, here's another failed ivermectin study, just published this month:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33682640/

 

Knock yourself out.

 

 

If I read this study correctly, they got people severely ill with covid, gave them below the generally recommended dosage of Ivermectin (for treating covid) for only 3 days, and said "gee, it didn't work".

 

What a surprise. Just because something can pass peer review  doesn't mean it's a well designed or useful study.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Harry Om

[partington]

26 minutes ago, Harry Om said:

"The median time to resolution of symptoms was 10 days (IQR, 9-13) in the ivermectin group compared with 12 days (IQR, 9-13) in the placebo group"

 

It didn't reach statistical significance, but you were still better off being in the Ivermectin group.

 

It's worth noting that the claim with Ivermectin is that it works best if used early as possible to reduce viral load. Once you're in hospital then it's too late, the damage is already done. So some of these studies are after the horse has already bolted, so it's not suprising their findings aren't conclusive.

You aren't better off in the ivermectin group.  The P value is 0.53 which means that the chance of this being  purely random statistical fluctuation indicating no difference between groups is 53%- that is the same as tossing a coin.

 

The acceptable P value for a difference to be accepted in a study like this is 0.05, that is there is a 1 in 20 chance of this difference being a chance occurence .

[Harry Om]

1 minute ago, partington said:

You aren't better off in the ivermectin group.  The P value is 0.53 which means that the chance of this being  purely random statistical fluctuation indicating no difference between groups is 53%- that is the same as tossing a coin.

 

The acceptable P value for a difference to be accepted in a study like this is 0.05, that is there is a 1 in 20 chance of this difference being a chance occurence .

 

Yes and no.

 

If there are 20 studies, none of which reach significance, but all of which show time to resolution of symptoms is faster in the Ivermectin group, then you can also use common sense and draw real world conclusions.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

 

"Thailand’s Food and Drug Administration (TFDA) is warning people against using the anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin to treat COVID-19, as it is mostly used in animals.

 

TFDA deputy secretary-general Surachoke Tangwiwat said Ivermectin is technically not produced to be used on people, so the risks are greater than drugs specifically developed for humans. People must not buy it without a prescription and in any case, a study on its effectiveness against the virus has yet to be concluded.

 

He said, although Ivermectin is mainly used on animals, it has been used in isolated cases to treat specific types of parasitic infestation and scabies in humans. According to the TFDA, the drug has been trialed for its efficacy in battling COVID-19 but, while some studies suggested it is effective against the virus, others found it ineffective. There is nothing conclusive about the drug's benefit in fighting COVID-19."

 

https://www.facebook.com/nbtworld/posts/10158114265972050

 

 

 

[internationalism]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

"Thailand’s Food and Drug Administration (TFDA) is warning people against using the anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin to treat COVID-19, as it is mostly used in animals.

 

TFDA deputy secretary-general Surachoke Tangwiwat said Ivermectin is technically not produced to be used on people, so the risks are greater than drugs specifically developed for humans. People must not buy it without a prescription and in any case, a study on its effectiveness against the virus has yet to be concluded.

 

He said, although Ivermectin is mainly used on animals, it has been used in isolated cases to treat specific types of parasitic infestation and scabies in humans. According to the TFDA, the drug has been trialed for its efficacy in battling COVID-19 but, while some studies suggested it is effective against the virus, others found it ineffective. There is nothing conclusive about the drug's benefit in fighting COVID-19."

 

https://www.facebook.com/nbtworld/posts/10158114265972050

 

 

 

that is fake news, daily dose from the government officials.

Ivermectin is made in thailand for humans 6mg pills, by atlantic laboratories.

It can also be imported from india and many other countries in the region.

It's not a prescription drug in thailand, but now very difficult to come across anywhere in the world. I got my stock from bangladesh, where it's half price comparing to thai made - something to do with scale of production

Edited June 30, 2021 by internationalism

[cdemundo]

On 6/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, GeorgeCross said:

a treatment is much more useful than a vaccine.

Curious why this is the case?

[internationalism]

12 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Curious why this is the case?

possibly because you need to vaccinate minimum 70% of the global population every 6-12 months, and still some of those will be infected with new strains. 

arab countries are already doing the 3rd shot, after sinovac proved less than expected.

But everybody should have a chance for a free vax (cheap ones, like AZ) or go private for the the best ones (at the time).

 

the average cost of shot is (I am guessing) $10 (ranging from $2.17 for AZ in the EU to some $72 for sinopharm). For comparable investment each family in the world can have a box of 100 pills of mass produced ivermectin (or some other medicine proved to be even a little effective) to be administered at onset of infection, as a first aid reaction, even before proper testing, which migh take time or not available (as at present in thailand)

[DeepSea]

On 6/28/2021 at 9:59 AM, Macrohistory said:

 

Ivermectin has already failed a randomized controlled trial the results of which were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33662102/

 

Ivermectin is bunk for COVID-19, just another anti-vaxxer, COVID-denier Internet myth.

 

 

 

I'm not going to argue the case for Ivermectin, other than to post the following link to a real-time meta analysis of 60 studies, I would encourage any reasonable person, to set their personal biases aside for a moment, and just read the data.

 

Another interesting fact, which readers may or may not be aware of, is that the emergency use authorization which has been granted to the pharmaceutical companies who produce these vaccines, is ONLY valid, as long as 'certain criteria are met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives' available worldwide, which 'may' go some way to explaining why this drug is being so thoroughly dismissed and attacked. If an effective treatment was identified, the emergency use authorization would be pulled. This is a stone cold fact, you can find the text, in the first section of the FDA Emergency Use Authorization webpage

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by DeepSea

[mtls2005]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:23 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Thailand’s Food and Drug Administration (TFDA) is warning people against using the anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin to treat COVID-19, as it is mostly used in animals.

 

 

The sense of desperation is strong here now, so...

 

assume some higher-up nut-job is pushing this.

 

 

The Department of Medical Sciences (DMS) will study whether Ivermectin, which is a drug used to kill parasites in cows, horses and, occasionally, people, could enhance Favipiravir's efficacy in treating COVID-19.

DMS Director-General Dr. Somsak Akkasilp said Ivermectin is used as a key drug to fight against COVID-19 in many South American countries, because Favipiravir is hardly used there. However, results on the drug's efficacy have been mixed, so there is no official recommendation to use it as primary treatment of the disease by any international health bodies.

He said the department has not prohibited the prescribing of Ivermectin for COVID-19 patients, under its medical treatment guidelines for COVID-19 patients, but does not recommend it being used as a primary medication for COVID-19 patients.

According to Dr. Somsak, the study will be done in close cooperation with Siriraj and other hospitals, which will test the drug cocktail on patients infected with the Sars-CoV-2 virus. The DMS expects to see results of the study in the next four months, to prove whether it ccan enhance Favipiravia's efficacy.

 

NNT- National News Bureau of Thailand FB page

 

 

 

Gotta love the "occasionally used in people".

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

could enhance Favipiravir's efficacy in treating COVID-19.

 

If you look into the background of Favipiravir (which is one of the current COVID mainstay drugs in Thailand), it isn't used or recommended as a COVID medication in many first-world countries either.... 

 

For some reason here, we seem to get the fringey stuff...

 

[Danderman123]

12 hours ago, DeepSea said:

 

I'm not going to argue the case for Ivermectin, other than to post the following link to a real-time meta analysis of 60 studies, I would encourage any reasonable person, to set their personal biases aside for a moment, and just read the data.

 

Another interesting fact, which readers may or may not be aware of, is that the emergency use authorization which has been granted to the pharmaceutical companies who produce these vaccines, is ONLY valid, as long as 'certain criteria are met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives' available worldwide, which 'may' go some way to explaining why this drug is being so thoroughly dismissed and attacked. If an effective treatment was identified, the emergency use authorization would be pulled. This is a stone cold fact, you can find the text, in the first section of the FDA Emergency Use Authorization webpage

 

If that were true, any treatment for Covid would be similarly attacked. So, let me introduce you to dexamethasone.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

If that were true, any treatment for Covid would be similarly attacked. So, let me introduce you to dexamethasone.

 

If I recall right, dex is one of the primary COVID medications recommended for being effective in the U.S., unlike favi...

 

[samtam]

On 6/8/2021 at 12:05 PM, Danderman123 said:

No need to debate this. The medical community will evaluate the clinical trials, and either Ivermectin will be adopted as a standard regimen, or it will go the way of hydroxylchloroquine. 
 

when laymen are promoting a cure, that is generally not a good sign.

 

When pharma is banning a treatment for monetary gain, this is generally not a good sign.

 

 

On 6/9/2021 at 8:14 AM, Jeffr2 said:

That's not a credible study, not peer reviewed.  And sorry, but if Ivermectin was successful at treating CV19, the big drug companies would be all over it. 

 

It's been proven to NOT be successful.  Sad some try to push these dodgy drugs.

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

 

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

 

No money in it, unlike the gravy train that is rolling out in its first year of many, in the form of vaccinations annually, bi-annually and with lower efficacy drugs, tri-annually. Toot-toot, all aboard!

 

 

On 6/30/2021 at 8:23 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

"Thailand’s Food and Drug Administration (TFDA) is warning people against using the anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin to treat COVID-19, as it is mostly used in animals.

 

TFDA deputy secretary-general Surachoke Tangwiwat said Ivermectin is technically not produced to be used on people, so the risks are greater than drugs specifically developed for humans. People must not buy it without a prescription and in any case, a study on its effectiveness against the virus has yet to be concluded.

 

He said, although Ivermectin is mainly used on animals, it has been used in isolated cases to treat specific types of parasitic infestation and scabies in humans. According to the TFDA, the drug has been trialed for its efficacy in battling COVID-19 but, while some studies suggested it is effective against the virus, others found it ineffective. There is nothing conclusive about the drug's benefit in fighting COVID-19."

 

https://www.facebook.com/nbtworld/posts/10158114265972050

 

 

 

 

And of course the alternative, getting a vaccination in Thailand, is widely and freely available...said no one.

[DeepSea]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

If that were true, any treatment for Covid would be similarly attacked. So, let me introduce you to dexamethasone.

 

A lot of people hold very polarized opinions these days and are seemingly incapable of discussing the pro's and con's of potentially effective treatments for COVID (among other issues, don't even get me started on politics) without taking an entrenched position from which they utterly reject any alternative point of view. I think it's reasonable to keep an open mind and I have no problem recognizing that dexamethasone (corticosteroid) displays both anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant properties, what it doesn't appear to have are any of the 'preventative' properties of Ivermectin) according to the real-time meta analysis of 60 studies i pasted in my earlier post).

 

I don't know how the minds of those at the FDA work, or what would represent an effective treatment in their esteemed opinion, but my personal opinion is that it's an outrage, that an ostensibly safe, relatively inexpensive drug, used by many front-line doctors with apparently favorable results (as a both a preventive and treatment - why would they lie about this, what's in it for them?); is being ridiculed, trashed, torn down and that those who even dare to mention the name Ivermectin are dismissed as anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists... What happened to the world, what happened to our ability to think logically for ourselves, when did we all turn into a bunch of mindless morons, swallowing everything we are told and turning on each other for raising logical and reasonable questions?

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by DeepSea

[mtls2005]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

So, let me introduce you to dexamethasone.

 

Why?

 

I'm not a doctor. 

 

Dexamethasone is used to treat conditions such as arthritis, blood/hormone disorders, allergic reactions, skin diseases, eye problems, breathing problems, bowel disorders, cancer, and immune system disorders. It is also used as a test for an adrenal gland disorder (Cushing's syndrome).Dexamethasone belongs to a class of drugs known as corticosteroids. It decreases your immune system's response to various diseases to reduce symptoms such as swelling and allergic-type reactions.

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1027-5021/dexamethasone-oral/dexamethasone-oral/details

 

I think this is one the things (Dexamethasone, remdesivir, Regeneron) they threw at trump, who it is now revealed, was in very serious trouble during his battle with COVID.

 

 

 

 

I get that people are frightened, and when they're frightened they seem to get stoopid. And stoopid people want the reinforcement which comes from other stoopid people. Hardly a new phenomenon. That's why cults are so popular.