U.S. embassy in Thailand rejects citizens' appeal for vaccines

[WaveHunter]

9 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

So is it is also your position that the 47% of Americans that do not pay federal income tax should be in line for their vaccinations after you?

Why is this discussion getting so damn convoluted?  This concept being debated is so easy to understand and appreciate!

 

It should be obvious to any person capable of coherent thought that American citizenship carries certain unalienable rights regardless of where you happen to be living.  Your rights as a US citizen do not vanish simply by crossing an international border. 

 

In the case of American expats, unlike expats of many other countries, when you leave the United States, you are still obligated to pay federal income tax.  That makes many of us expats here in Thailand tax-paying citizens of the United States.

 

For those of us American expats living outside the US and paying taxes, our tax dollars have LITERALLY paid for the current US stockpile of vaccines (estimated to be over a BILLION doses by years end, according to the Brookings Institute).   Therefore, regardless of our geographic location, we should be entitled to be vaccinated with vaccines that our tax dollars have paid for.

 

Considering that the US has announced that it will be donating upwards of 500 MILLION doses to foreign countries around the world beginning this month, a lot of expats who are also tax paying citizens of the US are asking the question..."What about us American expats?  You know, the tax paying citizens whose tax dollars actually paid for those vaccines?  Should we not be entitled to be included, and in a preferential way since we actually paid for them?"  

 

Many expats living in countries like Thailand are finding it difficult if not impossible to be vaccinated IN A TIMELY MANNER by the host countries. Here in Thailand, some estimate that expats may not actually become vaccinated until sometime next year!  That is very distressing, considering that the Delta and Delta+ variants have vastly increased the danger of being unvaccinated now and those dangers are expected to increase exponentially over the coming months!

 

Since Thailand is apparently ignoring (or even discriminating against) foreigners in the public vaccination rollout, expats are being placed in a precarious situation and have every right to turn to their home government for help, and our home government has an obligation to address our needs, as US citizens, and even more so, as tax-paying citizens.

 

The number of American expats around the world is estimated to be around 9 million, which would hardly put a dent in the available 500 million doses that will be donated overseas.  There are no logistical shipping barriers to delivering the vaccines, and in the case of Thailand, no diplomatic or political barriers either.  Thailand’s public health minister, Anutin Charnvirakul said that the department of Disease Control agrees to the basic principle that ANY country which is able to take care of its citizens can import vaccines to inoculate their nationals.

 

The sentiment of many US expats for our home government to intervene on our behalf is really very simple to understand and appreciate.  It is logical and it is fair.  It does not violate any ethical or diplomatic principles whatsoever.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by WaveHunter

[mogandave]

1 hour ago, AquaThai said:

Pensioners and retirees once paid taxes,  so to say they are not tax payers is inaccurate.   Once a member always a member.  They deserve  the same representation  as a person who currently  pays tas, as one day the current  tax payer will also be a retiree.   Just because  someone  retires doesnt mean they arent a tax payer.  Your logic is flawed.  

 

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question. 

 

Again, should people that pay taxes be entitled to vaccinations before people that do not pay taxes?

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question. 

 

Again, should people that pay taxes be entitled to vaccinations before people that do not pay taxes?

No....vaccinations should be administered on medical grounds.

[sqwakvfr]

Hypothetically speaking how long would it take to plan, coordinate and launch a program to vaccinate all overseas Americans?  How would the countries be prioritized?  How would Americans in Thailand feel if other countries with American Citizens were given priority and those of us in LOS are told to wait and be patient?  Based upon the principle of fairness(I still believe in that) if such a program was to be launched Thailand would not be the first country to get vaccines for it's citizens.  I believe there are American Citizens in Taiwan and I have not heard if any of the 2.25 million doses donated by the US Government are reserved for them?  

 

I have lived and worked in several countries where there were and are many Americans and the pandemic is much worse there than in LOS.  

 

I commend the French Government for vaccinating it's citizens in Thailand so quickly but does the same hold for French citizens in other parts of the world as well?  I have not heard if French Citizens are getting vaccinated in Vietnam or even in French Territories? 

 

I think the biggest issue holding the US Government back from vaccinating overseas Americans is "what country do we begin with?".  Doubt Thailand would be the first country.  There are a lot of Americans in Mexico, Brazil, Haiti and in India.  I doubt an American will get vaccinated by these governments? 

Edited June 26, 2021 by sqwakvfr

[mogandave]

34 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Why is this discussion getting so damn convoluted?  This concept being debated is so easy to understand and appreciate!

 

It should be obvious to any person capable of coherent thought that American citizenship carries certain unalienable rights regardless of where you happen to be living.  Your rights as a US citizen do not vanish simply by crossing an international border. 

 

In the case of American expats, unlike expats of many other countries, when you leave the United States, you are still obligated to pay federal income tax.  That makes many of us expats here in Thailand tax-paying citizens of the United States.

 

For those of us American expats living outside the US and paying taxes, our tax dollars have LITERALLY paid for the current US stockpile of vaccines (estimated to be over a BILLION doses by years end, according to the Brookings Institute).   Therefore, regardless of our geographic location, we should be entitled to be vaccinated with vaccines that our tax dollars have paid for.

 

Considering that the US has announced that it will be donating upwards of 500 MILLION doses to foreign countries around the world beginning this month, a lot of expats who are also tax paying citizens of the US are asking the question..."What about us American expats?  You know, the tax paying citizens whose tax dollars actually paid for those vaccines?  Should we not be entitled to be included, and in a preferential way since we actually paid for them?"  

 

Many expats living in countries like Thailand are finding it difficult if not impossible to be vaccinated IN A TIMELY MANNER by the host countries. Here in Thailand, some estimate that expats may not actually become vaccinated until sometime next year!  That is very distressing, considering that the Delta and Delta+ variants have vastly increased the danger of being unvaccinated now and those dangers are expected to increase exponentially over the coming months!

 

Since Thailand is apparently ignoring (or even discriminating against) foreigners in the public vaccination rollout, expats are being placed in a precarious situation and have every right to turn to their home government for help, and our home government has an obligation to address our needs, as US citizens, and even more so, as tax-paying citizens.

 

The number of American expats around the world is estimated to be around 9 million, which would hardly put a dent in the available 500 million doses that will be donated overseas.  There are no logistical shipping barriers to delivering the vaccines, and in the case of Thailand, no diplomatic or political barriers either.  Thailand’s public health minister, Anutin Charnvirakul said that the department of Disease Control agrees to the basic principle that ANY country which is able to take care of its citizens can import vaccines to inoculate their nationals.

 

The sentiment of many US expats for our home government to intervene on our behalf is really very simple to understand and appreciate.  It is logical and it is fair.  It does not violate any ethical or diplomatic principles whatsoever.

 

 

It amazes me that people (apparently) consider getting a vaccine one of their “unalienable rights” as an American citizen.

 

I worked for a US compay with operations in Thailand for twenty years. I know how taxes work. 

 

The covid debacle is a public heath issue, and it is the responsibility of the government to address that issue. US Expats are not part of the US public, and as such the US government has no responsibility to immunize them. 

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question. 

 

Again, should people that pay taxes be entitled to vaccinations before people that do not pay taxes?

If they are expats and their tax-paying dollars paid for donated vaccines to the host country (i.e.: Thailand), then ALL expats from that country should have priority in receiving vaccination from those donated vaccines IF the host country is not fairly including expats in their public rollout of vaccines...and that happens to be the case here in Thailand.  I mean, what's fair is fair.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

 

It amazes me that people (apparently) consider getting a vaccine one of their “unalienable rights” as an American citizen.

 

I worked for a US compay with operations in Thailand for twenty years. I know how taxes work. 

 

The covid debacle is a public heath issue, and it is the responsibility of the government to address that issue. US Expats are not part of the US public, and as such the US government has no responsibility to immunize them. 

 

 

 

No legal responsibility......but some might argue a moral responsibility (I'm not American)

[mogandave]

15 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

No....vaccinations should be administered on medical grounds.

 

Exactly. It’s a public health issue, that someone pays taxes should have no bearing on whether or not they are immunized. 

[mogandave]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

If they are expats and their tax-paying dollars paid for donated vaccines to the host country (i.e.: Thailand), then ALL expats from that country should have priority in receiving vaccination from those donated vaccines IF the host country is not fairly including expats in their public rollout of vaccines...and that happens to be the case here in Thailand.  I mean, what's fair is fair.

 

What difference does it make whether the expats are tax payers or tax recipients? 

 

How do you know that the Thai government is not fairly including expats in the donated vaccines?

[mogandave]

7 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

No legal responsibility......but some might argue a moral responsibility (I'm not American)

 

To make that argument, one would have to also have to make the argument that ALL public services available to citizens residing in the US should be made available to expats, yes? 

 

 

[Surelynot]

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

What difference does it make whether the expats are tax payers or tax recipients? 

 

How do you know that the Thai government is not fairly including expats in the donated vaccines?

To begin with there was a lot of confusion and expats were put on the back burner for a while ........I think Thailand then, with some reluctance, did start to cater for expats (to a degree).

Edited June 26, 2021 by Surelynot

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

To make that argument, one would have to also have to make the argument that ALL public services available to citizens residing in the US should be made available to expats, yes? 

 

 

Again...no vested interest....but a pandemic could be argued to be somewhat different to ALL public services.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

 

It amazes me that people (apparently) consider getting a vaccine one of their “unalienable rights” as an American citizen.

 

I worked for a US compay with operations in Thailand for twenty years. I know how taxes work. 

 

The covid debacle is a public heath issue, and it is the responsibility of the government to address that issue. US Expats are not part of the US public, and as such the US government has no responsibility to immunize them. 

 

 

 

I did NOT say it is an unalienable right to be vaccinated here in Thailand as an American, so stop twisting my words please.  I said that as a tax paying US Citizen, whose tax dollars paid for the vaccines that will soon be donated all around the world (including to Thailand), I feel entitled to be vaccinated from those vaccines that my tax dollars helped pay for, if Thailand fails to even let me register for vaccination (which happens to be the case for the majority of expats right now)

 

You are correct that it is the responsibility of the Thai government to manage the Covid situation that affects ALL people living in Thailand (both Thai nationals and foreigners).  My issue is that Thailand is not treating foreigners fairly.  Expats have been prevented from even being able to register for vaccinations, let alone be given an appointment date.  There is no reason that should be happening after weeks of online registration being established.

 

This inability of expats to simply register is not the result of online web glitches or it should have been resolved in a matter of days.  The InterVac site has been shut down for weeks now.  ALl of the previous iterations of foreigner registration also failed miserably.  There Is no other way to look at this except that the foreigner registration process has been more of a public relations tool to appease foreigners, than a tool to allow them to register. 

 

THAT is what makes help from one's home country necessary now.  China understood this when they stipulated that thier donation fo vaccines to Thailand required that Chinese nationals would be vaccinated from those donations.  France understood this when they took steps to vaccinate their own nationals by procuring vaccines that will be administered to their nationals through hospitals in Thailand (with the blessing of the Thai government), and now there is a growing movement from politicians in the US to do the same thing.

 

If you think this is immoral or unethical, you'll find a lot of disagreement from Chinese, French, American and Thai government officials who are sanctioning such actions.

[rupert the bear]

well obviously non of the emb staff are innocolated as that would be just so hypocritical and the same goes for the scum at  the uk embassy im sure.they wouldnt not jab us whilst theyve been jabbed using our tax payer dollar,that would mean they dont care and have complete contempt for us.no never never

[dukeandduke]

26 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

 

How do you know that the Thai government is not fairly including expats in the donated vaccines?

 

Because I live here, and they keep telling me no.

[WaveHunter]

51 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

What difference does it make whether the expats are tax payers or tax recipients? 

 

How do you know that the Thai government is not fairly including expats in the donated vaccines?

I have no idea what your first question means.

 

As for your second question, consider the following.  To date, How many expats have been able to successfully register for vaccination by any of the numerous registration schemes that have been provided such as MorProm, in-person registration at designated hospitals, or the InterVac sites? 

 

The answer is...Very few!  Even though many expats have gone to extreme lengths to do register in a number of different ways, all of their efforts have been in vain!  All of these registration schemes have failed miserably. In the case of in-personal registration at "designated" hospital, a list of such designated hospitals was NEVER even provided, even though the CCSA repeatedly promised to furnish for weeks.

 

Then when the registration scheme changed to being online, the MorProm app intentionally limited it to those who could provide a pink card, which almost no expats would normally have, when it would have been very easy to allow for passport or Thai Drivers license.

 

Then, when the CCSA changed stance and said that MorProm was not actually intended for foreigners to use and introduced the InterVac site, it was a complete fiasco and NEVER worked properly from Day 1, and has now been completely non-functional for over two weeks now. 

 

Now, the daily briefings in English  from the CCSA offer almost no meaningful discussion concerning foreigner registration for vaccination, even though they promised that foreigners were not being forgotten and would be kept up to date in every briefing.  That has been an empty promise!

 

You tell me...have all of these major screw-ups been merely accidental or have they been by design?  I would say it is the latter.  It's becoming clear that the registration schemes to date as well as the daily CCSA briefings in English have been public relations tools to appease foreigners, rather than legitimate tools that will lead expats to vaccination appointments.

 

I believe there are very strong reasons to assume that expats are at least being ignored in the present vaccination rollout scheme FOR SURE!  A stronger but entirely appropriate way to say that is that they are actively being discriminated against.

 

So, with all of this being said, to answer your second question precisely, if expats are not able to register, they will not be able to receive vaccinations from the donated vaccines that will soon be provided to Thailand by their very own home country, where their very own tax dollars helped pay for them!  Does that really sound fair???

 

The only way to assure they will receive them is for it to be stipulated that EVERY US expat receive vaccination from the donated vaccines FIRST.  Sorry if that sounds nationalistic to say, but based on how expats are currently being treated in the Thai public registration scheme right now, it's entirely appropriate to feel this way.

Edited June 26, 2021 by WaveHunter

[dukeandduke]

My friend and I went to the Emporium vaccination center yesterday, walking by the big "I'm Vaccinated" sign by which Thais were taking photos.  For a laugh, we asked the workers if they could vaccinate foreigners.  That gave them a good laugh, too.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

To make that argument, one would have to also have to make the argument that ALL public services available to citizens residing in the US should be made available to expats, yes? 

 

 

The answer is obviously "No", but we are not talking about ALL public services.  We are talking about a specific life threatening crisis without precedent that affects almost 9 million US expats in foreign countries that can not (or will not) meet the needs of American expats living there.

 

In the case of Thailand, it's becoming obvious that expats are largely being ignored or even discriminated against in the public rollout to date.  I am speaking specifically of the failure of expats being able to do something so basic as to register for vaccination. 

 

This issue is not simply due to computer glitches or IT incompetence.  The Thai online vaccination registrations sites for foreigners have not worked properly since day 1.  All the various iterations of the registration scheme for foreigners have failed miserably.

 

Even though expats were promised that they would be an integral part of the vaccination rollout, that is clearly not happening.  The only recourse expats may have is for their home government to help them. 

 

When it comes to something so novel and so dangerous as the SARS-CoV-2 virus, especially it's Delta variant, all of the old benchmarks of what an expat's home government should be responsible are off the table in favor of ones that address this unique predicament.  Thinking "out of the box" is what's required ow.

 

China has recognized that and taken measure to protect their citizens living here .  So has France.  Belgium is considering it, and now American politicians are seriously discussing it as well.  Millions of expats all around the world are 

Edited June 26, 2021 by WaveHunter

[Xonax]

On 6/23/2021 at 9:12 PM, placeholder said:

Why shouldn't foreign governments do it? France did for its most vulnerable citizens abroad.

 

Because they can and Thailand won't.

[frantick]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I have no idea what your first question means.

 

As for your second question, consider the following.  To date, How many expats have been able to successfully register for vaccination by any of the numerous registration schemes that have been provided such as MorProm, in-person registration at designated hospitals, or the InterVac sites? 

 

The answer is...Very few!  Even though many expats have gone to extreme lengths to do register in a number of different ways, all of their efforts have been in vain!  All of these registration schemes have failed miserably. In the case of in-personal registration at "designated" hospital, a list of such designated hospitals was NEVER even provided, even though the CCSA repeatedly promised to furnish for weeks.

 

Then when the registration scheme changed to being online, the MorProm app intentionally limited it to those who could provide a pink card, which almost no expats would normally have, when it would have been very easy to allow for passport or Thai Drivers license.

 

Then, when the CCSA changed stance and said that MorProm was not actually intended for foreigners to use and introduced the InterVac site, it was a complete fiasco and NEVER worked properly from Day 1, and has now been completely non-functional for over two weeks now. 

 

Now, the daily briefings in English  from the CCSA offer almost no meaningful discussion concerning foreigner registration for vaccination, even though they promised that foreigners were not being forgotten and would be kept up to date in every briefing.  That has been an empty promise!

 

You tell me...have all of these major screw-ups been merely accidental or have they been by design?  I would say it is the latter.  It's becoming clear that the registration schemes to date as well as the daily CCSA briefings in English have been public relations tools to appease foreigners, rather than legitimate tools that will lead expats to vaccination appointments.

 

I believe there are very strong reasons to assume that expats are at least being ignored in the present vaccination rollout scheme FOR SURE!  A stronger but entirely appropriate way to say that is that they are actively being discriminated against.

 

So, with all of this being said, to answer your second question precisely, if expats are not able to register, they will not be able to receive vaccinations from the donated vaccines that will soon be provided to Thailand by their very own home country, where their very own tax dollars helped pay for them!  Does that really sound fair???

 

The only way to assure they will receive them is for it to be stipulated that EVERY US expat receive vaccination from the donated vaccines FIRST.  Sorry if that sounds nationalistic to say, but based on how expats are currently being treated in the Thai public registration scheme right now, it's entirely appropriate to feel this way.

Funny how these commies tout equality, wear a mask for your fellow man, etc until it comes down to their fear of dying. Then it's GET ME A SHOT FIRST!

[dukeandduke]

19 minutes ago, frantick said:

Funny how these commies tout equality, wear a mask for your fellow man, etc until it comes down to their fear of dying. Then it's GET ME A SHOT FIRST!

Maybe slow down on the shots of Sangsom.

[frantick]

6 minutes ago, dukeandduke said:

Maybe slow down on the shots of Sangsom.

Good argument professor

[AquaThai]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:02 PM, AquaThai said:

No optimism,  its saying they are donating the vaccine to countries, and the countries are expected, not that they will, to include the citizens of the donating country equally to receive  the vaccine.  This already is not happening. as many of us are searching for sources to be included  in the roll out, often being told to pay, which I am willing to pay, but quicly the allocation of vaccines  for local non locals runs out extremely fast; however the local nationals still are signing up and not being turned away.  The email say its citizens  will get the vaccine with the local nationals  which is lip service because  we know its already not happening 

Exactly..  just like at the end of my Soi in Pattaya they just put up an Awning  and in Thai it reads that tgey will be giving vaccines on the 28th Of June.  But if I hadnt posted it here, or you haven't rode by the sign, and if you dont read Thai you wouldnt know that they are going to give out the vaccine  that day.  I have one Thai tell me no not vaccine they will give out food is what sign say.  So does it mske sense that they will give out food one day only, or that they will possibly  be vaccinating on that day.  If you arent Thai you arent told and you arent informed. 

[AquaThai]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question. 

 

Again, should people that pay taxes be entitled to vaccinations before people that do not pay taxes?

No because at one time or another  all pay taxes, therefore they are tax payers and should all be included.  So if Americans  are being vaccinated  at home they  should equally be abroad, as the only difference  is geo location.  Its the same thing as not being represented.  Why was there a revolt from the American  colonies in the 1700s?  Because  they paid their dues, but were not being treted equally  abroad.   Taxation without representation.   Now here we have Americans  abroad not being treated the same as our Citizens at home when it comes to the war on Covid.  Its the same thing

[bradiston]

10 minutes ago, AquaThai said:

Exactly..  just like at the end of my Soi in Pattaya they just put up an Awning  and in Thai it reads that tgey will be giving vaccines on the 28th Of June.  But if I hadnt posted it here, or you haven't rode by the sign, and if you dont read Thai you wouldnt know that they are going to give out the vaccine  that day.  I have one Thai tell me no not vaccine they will give out food is what sign say.  So does it mske sense that they will give out food one day only, or that they will possibly  be vaccinating on that day.  If you arent Thai you arent told and you arent informed. 

My very sweet Thai neighbour told me the same, at selected schools on 28th. So I think maybe worth a visit if you can find out where exactly.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

My very sweet Thai neighbour told me the same, at selected schools on 28th. So I think maybe worth a visit if you can find out where exactly.

Yeah you could.

But its totally obvious that they aren't inviting expats there.

[NanLaew]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:12 PM, John Drake said:

On 6/25/2021 at 3:05 PM, Tony125 said:

 

US senators call for vaccinating Americans who are living abroad

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-senators-call-for-vaccinating-americans-who-are-living-abroad/ar-AALpA0R?li=BBnb7Kz

 

Thanks for that. Good to see. I just followed up on your information and got the list of the senators who want to help us. Need to remember who was for us and who was against us and who didn't care when election time comes. 

 https://www.murphy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/murphy-moran-colleagues-urge-blinken-to-help-americans-living-abroad-get-vaccinated-against-covid-19

 

The mid-terms are EXACTLY why there's a sudden interest in garnering your vote. The obscenity of their cynical posturing is only exceeded by your enduring belief that your politicians actually care about you.

 

Interesting to see that only 3 Republicans seem to care about you at the moment. Not unexpected.

[Jingthing]

This tax thing is a diversionary red herring.

The USA has surplus vaccines for days.

The contrast to the rest of the world is obscene.

Appropriately the US is donating lots of vaccines globally. But not nearly enough.

Anyway the US expats that are being denied jabs abroad and or blatantly discriminated against as in Thailand would represent well under 1 percent of donated doses.

So in effect by the US denying us this help during a historic pandemic we're being thrown under the songthaew by BOTH governments!

Edited June 26, 2021 by Jingthing

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah you could.

But its totally obvious that they aren't inviting expats there.

Try the school at the bottom of Pattaya Tai opposite the temple. You never know!

[dukeandduke]

3 hours ago, frantick said:

Good argument professor

That's all that an "argument" citing "these commies" deserved. Btw, real commies (China) are vaccinating citizens here while my country (the USA) is not.