Deans of 10 of Thailand’s Faculties of Medicine Support Mix-and-Match Vaccine Strategy

[snoop1130]

 

BANGKOK (NNT) - Deans of the Faculties of Medicine at 10 universities have issued a statement backing a mix-and-match vaccine strategy, to combat the fast-spreading Delta variant.

 

The deans cited the rapid increase of Delta infections in Thailand in supporting the National Communicable Disease Committee’s proposal for a first jab of Sinovac followed by a second of AstraZeneca, to increase immunity against fast-spreading variants of COVID-19.

 

Their statement said that, in Bangkok alone, up to 69% of patients have the Delta variant, which has a higher mortality rate than other variants. The Delta variant also tends to be less responsive to vaccines, which were developed based on other variants.

 

The statement added that one jab of AstraZeneca or two jabs of Sinovac produces a low level of neutralizing antibodies, not enough to protect against Delta infection. However, two studies show that mixing and matching doses boosts immunity.

 

The deans also supported giving booster shots (third jabs) to front-line medical staff, as a protection against Delta. Medics given two jabs of Sinovac should get another jab of AstraZeneca, or any mRNA type vaccine, at least four weeks after the second jab.

 

-- © Copyright NNT 2021-07-16

 

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[BKKTRAVELER]

I'd like to ask them, would you do it yourselves?

[RJRS1301]

Sinovac looses efficacy after 40 days it has been reported by several studies. Even with other vaccines, it seems to be recommended to mix and match by other studies in EU as well, which  did not use Sinovac at all.

 

[BookShe]

I'm sure they are all experts. They should only comment on the space program or submarines as it's harmless to people.

[mtls2005]

1 hour ago, snoop1130 said:

Deans of the Faculties of Medicine at 10 universities have issued a statement backing a mix-and-match vaccine strategy, to combat the fast-spreading Delta variant.

Well that was easy. Hey, it's Friday, lets slap a letter together. Does it have any basis in science or fact? Who cares.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, snoop1130 said:

proposal for a first jab of Sinovac followed by a second of AstraZeneca

The bare minimum.

 

 

 

[zhounan]

It doesn't get much better than hire a university dean as testimonial for Big Pharma.

These are the results.

[TimBKK]

As if they had a choice

[law ling]

Ok deans, if triple doses don't work, will you then move on to quadruple? 

[Packitup]

Deans of the Faculties of Medicine at 10 universities thinks it's ok. That's ok them ? I feel reassured now. https://archive.is/8BOez

[GroveHillWanderer]

4 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Well that was easy. Hey, it's Friday, lets slap a letter together. Does it have any basis in science or fact? Who cares.

 

Yes, it does have a basis in science. Not only has the principle of using a heterologous prime-boost regimen already been shown effective in numerous other vaccines, specific studies with CoViD-19 vaccines also support its use.

 

From Nature Magazine:

 

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response

 

From The Lancet:

 

Heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination

Edited July 16, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[RJRS1301]

9 hours ago, law ling said:

Ok deans, if triple doses don't work, will you then move on to quadruple? 

Many of the medical personnel who have contracted COVID in Indonesia and died were double dosed on Sinovac,  there are several  million donated Moderna from USA , which will be used to as boosters to protect those on the overwhelmed front line.

The booster dose has been effective in slowing the Delta strain, backed by studies in EU

 

[mtls2005]

8 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, it does have a basis in science. Not only has the principle of using a heterologous prime-boost regimen already been shown effective in numerous other vaccines, specific studies with CoViD-19 vaccines also support its use.

 

From Nature Magazine:

 

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response

 

From The Lancet:

 

Heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination

 

Awesome.

 

So these cover AZ and Sinovac right?

 

Did you actually read them?

 

Your links appear to represent preliminary research.

 

From the Lancet reference:

 

 

There is significant international interest in heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination to mitigate against supply shocks or shortages that might otherwise reduce the speed of vaccine roll-out. Additionally, in light of changing recommendations regarding use of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (ChAd) COVID-19 vaccine (Vaxzevria, AstraZeneca), several countries are now advising that individuals previously primed with this vaccine should now receive an alternative vaccine as their second dose, most commonly mRNA vaccines

 

 

And the Nature article

 

Vaccinating people with both the Oxford–AstraZeneca and Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines produces a potent immune response against the virus SARS-CoV-2, researchers conducting a study in Spain have found.

 

 

The deans are endorsing a sinovac + AZ regimen.

 

 

So yeah. That the deans slapped together a recommendation based solely on available vaccines is, strangely suspect. And reeks of desperation.

 

 

Now, if you are suggesting that the current vaccine plan relies on a first does of AZ (supplies questionable) followed by a second dose of an mRNA vaccine (zero supply, maybe some freebie Pfizer from the U.S.), and the deans support THIS cocktail, then I withdraw any criticism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by mtls2005

[internationalism]

9 hours ago, law ling said:

Ok deans, if triple doses don't work, will you then move on to quadruple? 

it's about boosters with mix and match.

so they might have AZ soon.

But the second booster will be with the usa given pfizer 1.5mln doses. Nobody knows, when it will arrive. Rather end of year, around the fifth/sixth wave, so just on time

 

[hotchilli]

15 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

The deans cited the rapid increase of Delta infections in Thailand in supporting the National Communicable Disease Committee’s proposal for a first jab of Sinovac followed by a second of AstraZeneca, to increase immunity against fast-spreading variants of COVID-19.

Why not just come out of the woodwork and tell the truth, Sinovac is useless get two shots of something that works.

[RJRS1301]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

Why not just come out of the woodwork and tell the truth, Sinovac is useless get two shots of something that works.

It is also showing positive responses with Merna/Pfizzer and Pfizzer/ AZ combos, in early studies

However the Pfizzer with2 dosed Sinovac people in Indonesia is going to be administred as the Sinovac has low efficacy.

 

[Boedog]

We are in the process of doing Human trials now with mix and matching different manufacturers vaccines we will have to wait until we see if the human lives or dies or has any side affects or adverse reactions we will get back to you soon

[sghanchey]

12 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, it does have a basis in science. Not only has the principle of using a heterologous prime-boost regimen already been shown effective in numerous other vaccines, specific studies with CoViD-19 vaccines also support its use.

 

From Nature Magazine:

 

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response

 

From The Lancet:

 

Heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination

Thanks very much for the Lancet article. I'm heading to the U.S. next week with one jab of Astra-Zeneca received last week, and want to follow it up with a Pfizer jab in 2 weeks after I get back, but no health professionals in the U.S. have much information about A-Z because it's not approved or used there. 

[MrJ2U]

Good old government mouthpiece NNT of Thailand!

 

All the Deans are on the government's COVID-19 vaccines board.  There paid.

 

There the ones who kept recommending and  ordering Sinovac while delaying private hospitals from ordering mRNA vaccines.

 

I wouldn't want my loved ones mixing vaccines until theres further data as the WHO recommends.

[MrJ2U]

4 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

Many of the medical personnel who have contracted COVID in Indonesia and died were double dosed on Sinovac,  there are several  million donated Moderna from USA , which will be used to as boosters to protect those on the overwhelmed front line.

The booster dose has been effective in slowing the Delta strain, backed by studies in EU

 

The WHO doesn't recommend mix and matching Because of lack of data.

 

What studies in the EU have used Sinovac and then a booster of Astra Zeneca.  EU hasn't even approved Sinovac while many EU countries are abandoning Astra Zeneca altogether.

[huangnon]

4 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

Many of the medical personnel who have contracted COVID in Indonesia and died were double dosed on Sinovac,  there are several  million donated Moderna from USA , which will be used to as boosters to protect those on the overwhelmed front line.

The booster dose has been effective in slowing the Delta strain, backed by studies in EU

 

"Boosting" an inactivated virus vaccine with a totally different m-RNA type.. How does that work, then?

 

The medical personnel who died after double shots of Sinovac.. I wonder if proper postmortem examinations were carried out.?

[GroveHillWanderer]

5 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Awesome.

 

So these cover AZ and Sinovac right?

 

Did you actually read them?

 

Your links appear to represent preliminary research.

 

From the Lancet reference:

 

 

There is significant international interest in heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination to mitigate against supply shocks or shortages that might otherwise reduce the speed of vaccine roll-out. Additionally, in light of changing recommendations regarding use of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (ChAd) COVID-19 vaccine (Vaxzevria, AstraZeneca), several countries are now advising that individuals previously primed with this vaccine should now receive an alternative vaccine as their second dose, most commonly mRNA vaccines

 

 

And the Nature article

 

Vaccinating people with both the Oxford–AstraZeneca and Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines produces a potent immune response against the virus SARS-CoV-2, researchers conducting a study in Spain have found.

 

 

The deans are endorsing a sinovac + AZ regimen.

 

 

So yeah. That the deans slapped together a recommendation based solely on available vaccines is, strangely suspect. And reeks of desperation.

 

 

Now, if you are suggesting that the current vaccine plan relies on a first does of AZ (supplies questionable) followed by a second dose of an mRNA vaccine (zero supply, maybe some freebie Pfizer from the U.S.), and the deans support THIS cocktail, then I withdraw any criticism.

Yes, I read the links. Did you read (and understand) my reply?

 

You asked if there is a scientific basis. My reply alludes to the fact that the principle of heterologous prime-boost has been established by its use with previous vaccines and that there are also positive indications regarding Covid vaccines.

 

It doesn't provide direct, incontrovertible evidence that a heterologous prime-boost will be effective, but it does provide a scientific basis for the idea.

 

See also the article below. Not only does it make specific reference to SinoVac in a heterologous prime-boost regimen, it also states the general principle that:

 

"Different types of vaccines boost the immune system in different ways, so multiple vaccines provide broader coverage." 

 

Is Mixing Vaccines More Effective?

Edited July 17, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[RJRS1301]

28 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

The WHO doesn't recommend mix and matching Because of lack of data.

 

What studies in the EU have used Sinovac and then a booster of Astra Zeneca.  EU hasn't even approved Sinovac while many EU countries are abandoning Astra Zeneca altogether.

 

28 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

The WHO doesn't recommend mix and matching Because of lack of data.

 

What studies in the EU have used Sinovac and then a booster of Astra Zeneca.  EU hasn't even approved Sinovac while many EU countries are abandoning Astra Zeneca altogether.

If you read my post I said, mix Pfizzer/Moderna Pfizzer/AZ, never mentioned they had mixed Sinovac in EU, as it is not used there anywhere, but there is a lab study with Sino/.Pfizzzer mix. Sinovac looses efficacy after 40 days, 

Indonesia is in terrible state with the death/infection rates out of control, and medical staff dying after vaccinations, so guess they are hoping for the best.

 

[MrJ2U]

13 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, I read the links. Did you read (and understand) my reply?

 

You asked if there is a scientific basis. My reply alludes to the fact that the principle of heterologous prime-boost has been established by its use with previous vaccines and that there are also positive indications regarding Covid vaccines.

 

It doesn't provide direct, incontrovertible evidence that a heterologous prime-boost can be effective, but it does provide a scientific basis for the idea.

 

See also the article below. Not only does it make specific reference to SinoVac in a heterologous prime-boost regimen, it also states the general principle that:

 

"Different types of vaccines boost the immune system in different ways, so multiple vaccines provide broader coverage." 

 

Is Mixing Vaccines More Effective?

 

[MrJ2U]

15 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

 

If you read my post I said, mix Pfizzer/Moderna Pfizzer/AZ, never mentioned they had mixed Sinovac in EU, as it is not used there anywhere, but there is a lab study with Sino/.Pfizzzer mix. Sinovac looses efficacy after 40 days, 

Indonesia is in terrible state with the death/infection rates out of control, and medical staff dying after vaccinations, so guess they are hoping for the best.

 

Fair enough.

[GroveHillWanderer]

47 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

The WHO doesn't recommend mix and matching Because of lack of data.

That's not quite accurate. One WHO official said that individuals doing this on their own was "a little bit of a dangerous trend" and that "such decisions should be left to public health authorities."

 

Neither she nor the WHO as an organisation has come out definitively for or against it on an overall basis.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, huangnon said:

Boosting" an inactivated virus vaccine with a totally different m-RNA type.. How does that work, then?

It works because of the general scientific principle mentioned above, that:

 

"Different types of vaccines boost the immune system in different ways, so multiple vaccines provide broader coverage."

 

This makes perfect logical sense if you think about it. The immune system consists of many different components. First off, there are two major types of immune response, humoral and cellular. Within each of those are also different sub-components.

 

No two vaccines are going to stimulate the different parts of the immune system in exactly the same way. One might result in better humoral response, another might produce a better cellular response. The idea is that if you mix different types of vaccine, you will get a better and more wide-ranging response than by sticking to just the one vaccine that only stimulates part of the immune system.

Edited July 17, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[placnx]

5 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Awesome.

 

So these cover AZ and Sinovac right?

 

Did you actually read them?

 

Your links appear to represent preliminary research.

 

From the Lancet reference:

 

 

There is significant international interest in heterologous prime-boost COVID-19 vaccination to mitigate against supply shocks or shortages that might otherwise reduce the speed of vaccine roll-out. Additionally, in light of changing recommendations regarding use of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (ChAd) COVID-19 vaccine (Vaxzevria, AstraZeneca), several countries are now advising that individuals previously primed with this vaccine should now receive an alternative vaccine as their second dose, most commonly mRNA vaccines

 

 

And the Nature article

 

Vaccinating people with both the Oxford–AstraZeneca and Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines produces a potent immune response against the virus SARS-CoV-2, researchers conducting a study in Spain have found.

 

 

The deans are endorsing a sinovac + AZ regimen.

 

 

So yeah. That the deans slapped together a recommendation based solely on available vaccines is, strangely suspect. And reeks of desperation.

 

 

Now, if you are suggesting that the current vaccine plan relies on a first does of AZ (supplies questionable) followed by a second dose of an mRNA vaccine (zero supply, maybe some freebie Pfizer from the U.S.), and the deans support THIS cocktail, then I withdraw any criticism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The benefit of heterologous prime-boost has been discussed since 2015. In principle it would work for Sinovac as the prime.

[mtls2005]

55 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

You asked if there is a scientific basis.

I asked if the Dean's recommendations, sinovac + AZ, had a scientific basis. Not seeing much support for that in any of your post/articles?

 

55 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It doesn't provide direct, incontrovertible evidence that a heterologous prime-boost will be effective, but it does provide a scientific basis for the idea

OK, so it's an "idea".

 

Ideas are awesome.

 

 

Ten Thai Deans come up with an idea.

 

would be a better headline I guess?

 

 

And if it's such a great idea why wait until now to raise it?

 

I get that Thailand's options are limited.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by mtls2005

[placnx]

52 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, I read the links. Did you read (and understand) my reply?

 

You asked if there is a scientific basis. My reply alludes to the fact that the principle of heterologous prime-boost has been established by its use with previous vaccines and that there are also positive indications regarding Covid vaccines.

 

It doesn't provide direct, incontrovertible evidence that a heterologous prime-boost will be effective, but it does provide a scientific basis for the idea.

 

See also the article below. Not only does it make specific reference to SinoVac in a heterologous prime-boost regimen, it also states the general principle that:

 

"Different types of vaccines boost the immune system in different ways, so multiple vaccines provide broader coverage." 

 

Is Mixing Vaccines More Effective?

I wonder whether the rapid decay of immunity with Sinovac would create an issue of timing between initial 2 jabs and a subsequent booster with AZ or mRNA vaccine, i.e. if too much delayed would the booster have insufficient effect?

[Henryford]

I always find it odd that China has had virtually no cases or deaths since March 2020, in a population of 1.4 billion. Obviously Sinovax works (pause for laughter).