Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[Liebemein]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Kary Mullis also believed that AIDS wasn't caused by the HIV virus. He was a crank. A brilliant guy but a crank. And he died quite a while back. He would have had no idea of how sophisticated PCR testing has become.

Unfortunately he died few months before covid started. Any idea? Many great scientists who are warning people seem to be forgetten for those who lack of knowledge.

[HeijoshinCool]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:49 AM, robblok said:

I hope Darwin takes care of the problem of anti vaxers.

 

 

.

Yes, I agree....

 

Survival of the fittest.

[DavisH]

5 hours ago, Liebemein said:

 

 

— Kary Mullis, (Nobel Prize-winning biochemist who invented the PCR test).

Post the original link where he stated this. I bet you cannot. Because he didn't say this at all. 

"https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pcr-idUSKBN24420X

[HeijoshinCool]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Kary Mullis also believed that AIDS wasn't caused by the HIV virus. He was a crank. A brilliant guy but a crank. And he died quite a while back. He would have had no idea of how sophisticated PCR testing has become.

Uhm....he conveniently died in August 2020, mere months before "covid" was seen in Wuhan. So he probably had a pretty good idea of how "sophisticated" his creation was as he used it every day.

 

A "brilliant (Nobel Prize-winning) crank," is an oxymoron.

 

He emphatically stated time and time again that his invention was not a test, rather a manufacturing technique, and could not be used to diagnose infection.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by HeijoshinCool
Spell checker wrong

[richard_smith237]

7 hours ago, Liebemein said:

How are you so sure how many people die from covid? They probably forget about other diseases these days. Think think ??? Why???

Excess deaths in 2020 in the UK ran at 14%. That is 14% more people in the UK died in 2020 than compared to the average over the previous 5 years.

A 10-15% excess deaths figure has been established in many Western countries.

Deaths attributed to ALL causes, no specific covid reporting, just facts - an easily measurable metric - deaths. 

 

Unless there was an epidemic of something else, 14% excess deaths is telling. I didn’t buy into the whole severity of Covid-19 until I researched the raw figures myself (the raw figures are easy enough to find).

 

 

7 hours ago, Liebemein said:

Many severe cases couldn't reach the have appropriate treatments because couldn't refer to bigger hospitals and everyone need PCR test. So necessary to count a covid case than save people lives.

I'm not sure what your implication is with the above comment. Is is that people died of covid because they couldn’t get into hospital to be treated for covid without a covid test - it still makes no sense.

 

7 hours ago, Liebemein said:

You probably googling a lot than realistic, common sense even scientific knowledge. Try harder. 

You make no sense, how else do you get information if not from online sources? (Google searches etc) 

I for one trust the ‘office of national statistics’ (which can be found from a google search), or information in Papers published in the Lancet (which again, can be found with a google search). 

 

 

7 hours ago, Liebemein said:

"Anyone can test positive for practically anything with a PCR test, if you run it long enough, with PCR if you do it well, you can find almost anything, in anybody, It doesn't tell you if you're sick"

— Kary Mullis, (Nobel Prize-winning biochemist who invented the PCR test).

Agreed - which is why the PCR test is limited to 35 replication cycles. There were reports accusing facilities of doing excessive replication cycles, however these turned out to be fake. 

The Lancet reported anywhere between a 0.8 and 4.0% false positive result - the chances of two false positives in a row are tiny. 

 

The PCR test is not used to tell you if you are sick - it is used to identify if you have covid and can pass it on to others and make them sick, sometimes with grave consequences. The test works. 

 

The significant issue with covid is that so many people are asymptomatic, they carry the SARS-CoV-2 virus to vulnerable people. Whereas those who show symptoms know to self isolate - this is where Covid-19 is particularly dangerous, many people have no idea they have it and spread it to those at risk. 

 

 

All of that said: IF you don’t believe Covid-19, thats up to you. Perhaps you know better than the virologists and experts advising the governments of every country world wide. Those countries of different continents, regions, religions, cultures, economies, countries which would otherwise be enemies all agree on one thing - the dangers of Covid-19....  But, you know better because you are using common sense, right ????

 

 

 

 

 

 

[frantick]

19 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Lovely.

But you didn't answer my question.

 

"Just curious, if you were to catch COVID would you be willing to forgo medical treatment to prove your point?

I think that would be quite sporting of you."

A tired argument. Should skate boarders stop skating? Should skiers stop skiing? Should red meat eaters stop eating red meat? Many things can put you into the hospital. Life is about choices AND about individual freedom to make them. At least, it used to be.

 

Vaxed can transmit virus. Unvaxed can transmit virus. Nothing in life is 100%; live accordingly.

[cdemundo]

4 minutes ago, frantick said:

A tired argument. Should skate boarders stop skating? Should skiers stop skiing? Should red meat eaters stop eating red meat? Many things can put you into the hospital. Life is about choices AND about individual freedom to make them. At least, it used to be.

 

Vaxed can transmit virus. Unvaxed can transmit virus. Nothing in life is 100%; live accordingly.

If you deny the existence or danger of COVID or need for vaccination you should have no reason to hesitate to make this promise.

Has nothing to do with your other examples.

Which make no sense at all, you probably didn't do too well on the analogies sections of standardized test when you were in school.

Choose not to vaccinate. no problem.

Don't use limited medical resources if you get COVID.

[frantick]

14 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

If you deny the existence or danger of COVID or need for vaccination you should have no reason to hesitate to make this promise.

Has nothing to do with your other examples.

Which make no sense at all, you probably didn't do too well on the analogies sections of standardized test when you were in school.

Choose not to vaccinate. no problem.

Don't use limited medical resources if you get COVID.

Actually you should read your quote first to see who needs to retake their test.

 

I don't deny either. My "dumb" choice should be treated the same as all other dumb choices. The healthcare system is there to treat ALL people; even those who make bad choices. You wouldn't treat a skateboarder who broke his wrist, or a heart attack victim who ate too many steaks? There are a million choices that you make that can put you into a hospital bed. Or did you want to control all of those choices also?

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by frantick
Grammar

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, HeijoshinCool said:

Uhm....he conveniently died in August 2020, mere months before "covid" was seen in Wuhan. So he probably had a pretty good idea of how "sophisticated" his creation was as he used it every day.

 

A "brilliant (Nobel Prize-winning) crank," is an oxymoron.

 

He emphatically stated time and time again that his invention was not a test, rather a manufacturing technique, and could not be used to diagnose infection.

 

 

Just because somebody creates something doesn't mean that their understanding of it is unimpeachable. Albert Einstein refused to accept the reality of black holes despite the fact that relativity predicted them. By your lights that would mean that black holes don't exist. This nonsense about PCR would mean that there has been some kind of massive conspiracy for years in the medical community to perpetuate these tests. Basically this kind of nonsense comes from denialist websites.

And yes, you can be a genius and a crank or even a loon. Look up Nicola Tesla who regulary had conversations with Mark Twain. Despite the fact that Twain was defunct.. And as I pointed out, Mullis denied that AIDS was caused by H.I.V. well after therapies that specifically targeted the virus proved their effectiveness.

[cdemundo]

Just now, frantick said:

Actually you should read your quote first to see who needs to retake their test.

 

I don't deny either. My "dumb" choice should be treated the same as all other dumb choices. The healthcare system is there to treat ALL people; even those who make bad choices. You wouldn't treat a skateboarder who broke his wrist, or a heart attack victim who ate too many steaks. There are a million choices that you make that can put you into a hospital bed. Or did you want to control all of those choices also?

 

No. I am not saying that anyone should be denied medical care.

I guess you failed the reading comprehension portion as well.

I am asking people to voluntarily decline medical care, since they are claiming it isn't needed since COVID is a hoax, or the vaccines are fake, or healthy people can't get COVID as nauseam.

Are you willing to make that promise? (By the way promises posted here are non-binding).

Cuz if the things you are saying are true, you should have no problem.

 

 

 

[frantick]

33 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

No. I am not saying that anyone should be denied medical care.

I guess you failed the reading comprehension portion as well.

I am asking people to voluntarily decline medical care, since they are claiming it isn't needed since COVID is a hoax, or the vaccines are fake, or healthy people can't get COVID as nauseam.

Are you willing to make that promise? (By the way promises posted here are non-binding).

Cuz if the things you are saying are true, you should have no problem.

 

 

 

No, I wouldn't voluntarily decline. I never stated vaccines are fake, nor covid is a hoax, nor healthy people can't get covid. If you think I did, show me where.

 

My issue is the whole "don't use up hospital resources because you made a bad choice" argument. Hospitals use their resources for mostly bad choices everyday.

 

I worked for one for 35 years. I expect treatment when I show up; vaxed or not. And if they're full, put me at the back of the line.

 

Presently no plans to be vaxed unless required for flights.

Edited August 7, 2021 by frantick

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:29 PM, impulse said:

To someone of child bearing age, I support whatever decision they make.  Even if it puts us old farts at risk.

Why would they put you at risk? It would be a personal choice to go near other people without wearing the appropriate protective equipment.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/8/2021 at 7:30 AM, frantick said:

My issue is the whole "don't use up hospital resources because you made a bad choice" argument. Hospitals use their resources for mostly bad choices everyday.

 

I worked for one for 35 years. I expect treatment when I show up; vaxed or not. And if they're full, put me at the back of the line.

I didn't work in a hospital that long ( I had different careers before that one ), but long enough to agree with "Hospitals use their resources for ................. bad choices everyday".

 

Declining treatment for myself is restricted to palliative only, as I have a DNR directive, but I certainly expect to be given that much if I need it. I paid enough tax to be entitled to it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, frantick said:

Actually you should read your quote first to see who needs to retake their test.

 

I don't deny either. My "dumb" choice should be treated the same as all other dumb choices. The healthcare system is there to treat ALL people; even those who make bad choices. You wouldn't treat a skateboarder who broke his wrist, or a heart attack victim who ate too many steaks? There are a million choices that you make that can put you into a hospital bed. Or did you want to control all of those choices also?

 

Exactly right. Hospitals don't refuse to treat people that became too drunk and got injured because of it, or bad drivers that caused accidents.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/8/2021 at 6:27 AM, cdemundo said:

If you deny the existence or danger of COVID or need for vaccination you should have no reason to hesitate to make this promise.

Has nothing to do with your other examples.

Which make no sense at all, you probably didn't do too well on the analogies sections of standardized test when you were in school.

Choose not to vaccinate. no problem.

Don't use limited medical resources if you get COVID.

If I couldn't get treated for anything by a hospital, I'd be asking for a refund of the part of my tax that went to hospitals. As a taxpayer it's my right to be treated in a public hospital.

 

Anyway, if resources are limited, it's IMO because governments wouldn't put the resources into public health services. During my time working in hospitals the workload constantly increased because the government wouldn't pay nurses enough to make enough people want to do it, and we had to do more ( because technology allowed more patients to be treated faster, leading to more patients and a faster turnover ) with less staff.

They still don't pay nurses enough, period.

 

 

[thaicookingchef]

of course this world is crazy and people vaccinate for a virus that has close to zero change to kill them, so ridiculous !

 

[thaicookingchef]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:08 PM, thairastawoman said:

 

do you at least know how many people died within 48 hours of vaccination ?

more than 10000 in Europe ! But of course, there is no evidence that they died because of vaccine...

more than 6000 in USA...

http://web.archive.org/web/20210802085407/https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20210802085347/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352837543_Analysis_of_COVID-19_vaccine_death_reports_from_the_Vaccine_Adverse_Events_Reporting_System_VAERS_Database_Interim_Results_and_Analysis

 

this world is amazing !

 

 

But still, virus kills more than vaccine.

Just choose how you want to die.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, thaicookingchef said:

 

But still, virus kills more than vaccine.

Just choose how you want to die.

 

I've dodged death more times than I can remember, but sooner or later I am going to die. I doubt corona is worse than any of the other ways I could have.

[placeholder]

On 8/7/2021 at 3:30 PM, frantick said:

No, I wouldn't voluntarily decline. I never stated vaccines are fake, nor covid is a hoax, nor healthy people can't get covid. If you think I did, show me where.

 

My issue is the whole "don't use up hospital resources because you made a bad choice" argument. Hospitals use their resources for mostly bad choices everyday.

 

I worked for one for 35 years. I expect treatment when I show up; vaxed or not. And if they're full, put me at the back of the line.

 

Presently no plans to be vaxed unless required for flights.

But cdemundo never contended hospitals should refuse someone treatment because they refused vaccination. Just that morally speaking, if you refuse to be vaccinated, you shouldn't use the hospital. Not legally speaking, but morally speaking.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

But cdemundo never contended hospitals should refuse someone treatment because they refused vaccination. Just that morally speaking, if you refuse to be vaccinated, you shouldn't use the hospital. Not legally speaking, but morally speaking.

LOL.

By that logic people that eat too much shouldn't use a hospital if have heart attack; people that eat sugar shouldn't use hospital if get diabetes; people that drive drunk shouldn't use hospital if have accident; etc.

[KarenBravo]

If an anti-vaxer gives birth, explain to the mother that her beliefs are respected and notify her that her baby won't get vaccinations for Smallpox, Polio and Measles.

[frantick]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

But cdemundo never contended hospitals should refuse someone treatment because they refused vaccination. Just that morally speaking, if you refuse to be vaccinated, you shouldn't use the hospital. Not legally speaking, but morally speaking.

Morally, I pay for treatment, I get treated. I'm from the US so YMMV (Your Morals May Vary). 

 

There are no long-term studies for these "vaccines". I'm a long-term thinker. And now the original control group's are getting vaccinated so we may never know the true value of these vaccines. Morally, I'm in the clear.

 

At this point, it almost seems that with all the vaccinated breakthrough cases, vaccinated transmissions, and deaths of those vaccinated, that the vaccinated just want the unvaccinated to go down with them.

[frantick]

14 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

If an anti-vaxer gives birth, explain to the mother that her beliefs are respected and notify her that her baby won't get vaccinations for Smallpox, Polio and Measles.

But those are TRUE vaccines. Apples and oranges.

[KarenBravo]

3 minutes ago, frantick said:

But those are TRUE vaccines. Apples and oranges.

And those Covid vaccines that produce anti-bodies aren't?

Whoops! Your ignorance is showing........

[frantick]

58 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

And those Covid vaccines that produce anti-bodies aren't?

Whoops! Your ignorance is showing........

Ok, to spell it out for you, those vaccines have a long tested, proven track record of providing higher efficacy from their targeted illnesses than do the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines.

[KarenBravo]

17 minutes ago, frantick said:

Ok, to spell it out for you, those vaccines have a long tested, proven track record of providing higher efficacy from their targeted illnesses than do the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines.

Let's see now. Take this vaccine with no lengthy track record except it's proven worth against Covid, or don't take anything and risk serious illness and death.

 

I'm sure that other anti-vaxers use the same argument as you as they infect other people, or get sick. Unfortunately, anti-vaxers due to their stubbornness are prolonging this pandemic.

If the myriad of health professionals are advocating vaccination then it should be done.

I'm sure they all know much better than you about the illness and the vaccines.

[Tony125]

1 hour ago, frantick said:

Ok, to spell it out for you, those vaccines have a long tested, proven track record of providing higher efficacy from their targeted illnesses than do the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines.

Fact check: 6 of the most persistent misconceptions about COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fact-check-6-of-the-most-persistent-misconceptions-about-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAMZekU

 

 

Reluctant to be vaccinated for COVID-19? Here are six myths you can put to rest

https://theconversation.com/reluctant-to-be-vaccinated-for-covid-19-here-are-six-myths-you-can-put-to-rest-165027

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Fact check: 6 of the most persistent misconceptions about COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fact-check-6-of-the-most-persistent-misconceptions-about-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAMZekU

 

This is the most puerile nonsense I read so far about Covid. It boggles the mind that people think this rubbish but more that a website has to publish their nonsense.

[frantick]

3 hours ago, Tony125 said:

Fact check: 6 of the most persistent misconceptions about COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fact-check-6-of-the-most-persistent-misconceptions-about-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAMZekU

 

 

Reluctant to be vaccinated for COVID-19? Here are six myths you can put to rest

https://theconversation.com/reluctant-to-be-vaccinated-for-covid-19-here-are-six-myths-you-can-put-to-rest-165027

Sorry, neither of those links addresses the comparison I made to actual vaccines. Show me where they work as good as the polio, smallpox, and measles vaccines. You can't. Also show me the fact checkers that don't use the words, "may", "should", "could", "might", "possibly", etc.

 

There's also a yearly "vaccine" for the flu that works half-as..d too; never had it.

 

How many "boosters" per year are you willing to endure for the rest of your so called life to prevent your 1.5% chance of dying? At some point your idea of living is just a banal existence.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by frantick
Spelling and clarity

[josephbloggs]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:37 AM, internationalism said:

But there would be shortage of vax, especially for foreigners, for many years. Thanx to dr Anutin.

The only reason the government will try to force vax on foreigners is for their money, not because 

they do care about your health or health in the general population.

What are you talking about?  I have had my first AZ shot from the Thai government, for free.  I have a confirmed appointment for my second one and again it is free from the government.

All of my foreign friends have had their first shot, all AZ, all free.

So, again, what are you talking about??  Just more ridiculous TVF victim complex paranoia.