So, how's China doing?

[placeholder]

On 8/10/2021 at 10:54 PM, cmarshall said:

Reasoning from stereotypes is superficial and just silly and just reinforces your own prejudices.   Non-authoritarian Australia and New Zealand are continuing to pursue the same zero case strategy as China with success.  It's more likely to be explained by the competence of the governments in question.  

 

Is it so hard to contemplate that, at least in this case, the Chinese government are vastly more competent and more committed to saving the lives of their citizens than the US, UK, Brazil, etc.?

Unfortunately, the weakness of democracy is that a country can be inflicted with terrible leadership. Australia and New Zealand both have managed to subdue Covid without adopting the Orwellian measures that characterize the Chinese system of govt. 

[Nojohndoe]

On 8/11/2021 at 12:16 PM, RubbaJohnny said:

You are correct these are egregious abuses, however teh Han do need perceive other races as equals ,

Tibetans, Mongols, Uighurs, Dai, etc discrimatory  behaviour is not unique, discrimination against blacks continues worldwide and was legal in USA in my lifetime,

 

Meanwhile not far from the mother of parliaments signs saying No Irish No Blacks no dogs were common in public and many white  Americans Australians,English people still feel superior to others as anyone who has had contact with them will aver.

 

 

 

However this far ar fewer have died here per million 91 than UK /US nearer TWENTY times higher mortality.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

The vax rollout has been tardy and chaotic but 27th in the world for 20th largest nation by population indicates it could be a lot worse. like Belgium , Czechia or Peru where fatalities are 500 times higher than LOS , so lets count our blessings, protect ourselves and hope our hosts tolerate us during this economic tragedy.

 

For Christians the death of Christ is marked , for Palestinians the Naqba for the Hebrews their Holocaast here the thing they worship MONEY is being sacrificed before our eyes.

 

I fear some may see old poor redshirts to the wall as a win.and as the economic pain increase xenophobic politicians may well use the poor migrant workers and foreign residents as whipping boys for their humiliation and failures. The idea of immunity reveals the mindset of criminal plea bargain or prep to do a runner. A cultural tip ask yourself which do they care about most , loss of face or money?

Superiority...derived from wealth or whatever social position can be derived from allegiance to either  option !

[frantick]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Unfortunately, the weakness of democracy is that a country can be inflicted with terrible leadership. Australia and New Zealand both have managed to subdue Covid without adopting the Orwellian measures that characterize the Chinese system of govt. 

Yeah, 2 countries of 45m people on a few islands vs 1.3bn on a large continent surrounded by other countries. I hate to stick up for "Chyna", but I must.

 

Aus and NZ closed their islands basically. Not so easy for the rest of the world. But, it's not over yet. I think worse is coming for those 2 unfortunately.

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, frantick said:

Yeah, 2 countries of 45m people on a few islands vs 1.3bn on a large continent surrounded by other countries. I hate to stick up for "Chyna", but I must.

 

Aus and NZ closed their islands basically. Not so easy for the rest of the world. But, it's not over yet. I think worse is coming for those 2 unfortunately.

I actually agree with you about Australia and New Zealand. But the person I was replying to cited them in support of his argument. So I let it ride.

[frantick]

10 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I actually agree with you about Australia and New Zealand. But the person I was replying to cited them in support of his argument. So I let it ride.

???? <-That's a thumbs up BTW. Maybe doesn't show up on non Android.

Edited August 12, 2021 by frantick

[cmarshall]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

Unfortunately, the weakness of democracy is that a country can be inflicted with terrible leadership. Australia and New Zealand both have managed to subdue Covid without adopting the Orwellian measures that characterize the Chinese system of govt. 

What "Orwellian" measures did the Chinese government use that were not justified by the need to stop the spread of the virus?  They locked down first Wuhan and then all of Hubei Province when the virus was out of control.  Restrictions on households during the lockdown were severe: only one member of the household could go out every other day only for a couple of hours to get food for the family.  The recent lockdown in Melbourne was similar however.  Residents could only go out for a limited time per day for exercise and couldn't go more than five kilometers.  Sounds similar to me.  In China those who tested positive were sometimes forcibly isolated which was completely necessary.  And it worked.  After the Wuhan lockdown ended seventy-seven days later, China never had to lock down another city, because their other public health measures were effective.

 

The historical gold standard of epidemic control to my mind is Milan during the Black Death.  Plague killed off half of Europe in 1348, but the die off was not uniform.  Milan was spared, although not miraculously.  What happened was the first two families that were infected were bricked up in their homes by the authorities.  This example should be taught in schools as the perfect response.  Similarly, the Chinese measures saved millions of lives.

[ExpatOilWorker]

38 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What "Orwellian" measures did the Chinese government use that were not justified by the need to stop the spread of the virus? 

They arrested some "citizens journalists", apparently treated them a bit rough, and generally Beijing prevented information from getting out of Wuhan in order to control the narrative. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

What "Orwellian" measures did the Chinese government use that were not justified by the need to stop the spread of the virus?  They locked down first Wuhan and then all of Hubei Province when the virus was out of control.  Restrictions on households during the lockdown were severe: only one member of the household could go out every other day only for a couple of hours to get food for the family.  The recent lockdown in Melbourne was similar however.  Residents could only go out for a limited time per day for exercise and couldn't go more than five kilometers.  Sounds similar to me.  In China those who tested positive were sometimes forcibly isolated which was completely necessary.  And it worked.  After the Wuhan lockdown ended seventy-seven days later, China never had to lock down another city, because their other public health measures were effective.

 

The historical gold standard of epidemic control to my mind is Milan during the Black Death.  Plague killed off half of Europe in 1348, but the die off was not uniform.  Milan was spared, although not miraculously.  What happened was the first two families that were infected were bricked up in their homes by the authorities.  This example should be taught in schools as the perfect response.  Similarly, the Chinese measures saved millions of lives.

China was an Orwellian state well before the onset of Wuhan, So it was well prepared for the virus.

[cmarshall]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

China was an Orwellian state well before the onset of Wuhan, So it was well prepared for the virus.

That is a vacuous statement. 

 

Quick quiz: what is the only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million people, every single one of whom has since been shown to be entirely innocent of the accusations used to justify their murder, i.e. involvement in 9/11 and Weapons of Mass Destruction?  Hint: it wasn't China.

 

If you think that question has nothing to do with your opinion of China, then you have Orwell to thank.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

That is a vacuous statement. 

 

Quick quiz: what is the only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million people, every single one of whom has since been shown to be entirely innocent of the accusations used to justify their murder, i.e. involvement in 9/11 and Weapons of Mass Destruction?  Hint: it wasn't China.

 

If you think that question has nothing to do with your opinion of China, then you have Orwell to thank.

North Korea ?

[cmarshall]

3 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

They arrested some "citizens journalists", apparently treated them a bit rough, and generally Beijing prevented information from getting out of Wuhan in order to control the narrative. 

Here is a press release from the Yale School of Public Health dated January 23, 2020:

 

Q: How has rapid data sharing, including sharing of the nCOV2019 virus’ genomes, helped advance the investigation into the nCOV2019 outbreak?

Two weeks ago, we didn't even know what the nCOV2019 virus was. Today, thanks to China’s quick public release of the initial nCOV2019 virus genome, there are now 18 genomes connected to nCOV2019 that are being shared and studied by scientists around the world. By rapidly sharing this data, scientists were able to quickly identify nCOV2019 as a novel coronavirus related to those previously found in bats.

 

https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/rapid-data-sharing-and-genomics-vital-to-china-virus-response/

 

The subsequent failure of the Western countries to protect themselves against the coming spread was not due to information blocking in China, but to their own incompetence which is proven by the ability of other governments to control it, such as S. Korea, Viet Nam, Taiwan, etc.

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

North Korea ?

Do you have data to support that claim?

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, cmarshall said:

Do you have data to support that claim?

It wasn't a claim 

[cmarshall]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wasn't a claim 

So, the USA's record stands then as far as we know.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

So, the USA's record stands then as far as we know.

No, you made a false allegation, which is going off topic and will be deleted for being off topic if I reply

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, you made a false allegation, which is going off topic and will be deleted for being off topic if I reply

What is false?

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What is false?

The allegation that the USA has murdered over 1 million innocent people . 

[ExpatOilWorker]

17 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Here is a press release from the Yale School of Public Health dated January 23, 2020:

 

Q: How has rapid data sharing, including sharing of the nCOV2019 virus’ genomes, helped advance the investigation into the nCOV2019 outbreak?

Two weeks ago, we didn't even know what the nCOV2019 virus was. Today, thanks to China’s quick public release of the initial nCOV2019 virus genome, there are now 18 genomes connected to nCOV2019 that are being shared and studied by scientists around the world. By rapidly sharing this data, scientists were able to quickly identify nCOV2019 as a novel coronavirus related to those previously found in bats.

 

https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/rapid-data-sharing-and-genomics-vital-to-china-virus-response/

 

The subsequent failure of the Western countries to protect themselves against the coming spread was not due to information blocking in China, but to their own incompetence which is proven by the ability of other governments to control it, such as S. Korea, Viet Nam, Taiwan, etc.

Ha ha!

You must have taken a double dose of commie propaganda sugar today.

The incompetent west then developed groundbreaking new and very effective vaccines while the best of the best will full state support of the mighty CCP produced a vaccine that is best avoided if you want to stay alive. 

Democracy is a horrible system, but by a million miles it is by far the best system we have.

[ExpatOilWorker]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The allegation that the USA has murdered over 1 million innocent people . 

Mao did that in a slow year. CCP are the pro, when is comes to mass culling.

[cmarshall]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The allegation that the USA has murdered over 1 million innocent people . 

Estimates range from 150,000 to one million.  I take the high end

 

The October 2006 Lancet study by Gilbert Burnham (of Johns Hopkins University) and co-authors^[32][33] estimated total excess deaths (civilian and non-civilian) related to the war of 654,965 excess deaths up to July 2006. The 2006 study was based on surveys conducted between May 20 and July 10, 2006. More households were surveyed than during the 2004 study, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. Those estimates were far higher than other available tallies at the time.^[168]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Various_estimates}

 

What is not a matter of dispute is that there were no WMD and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  So, every death was of a person innocent of the American accusations used to justify the war.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Estimates range from 150,000 to one million.  I take the high end

 

The October 2006 Lancet study by Gilbert Burnham (of Johns Hopkins University) and co-authors^[32][33] estimated total excess deaths (civilian and non-civilian) related to the war of 654,965 excess deaths up to July 2006. The 2006 study was based on surveys conducted between May 20 and July 10, 2006. More households were surveyed than during the 2004 study, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. Those estimates were far higher than other available tallies at the time.^[168]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Various_estimates}

 

What is not a matter of dispute is that there were no WMD and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  So, every death was of a person innocent of the American accusations used to justify the war.

Why don't you start a thread about that and we can discuss it there .

  Going off topic will lead to posts being deleted 

[cmarshall]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Ha ha!

You must have taken a double dose of commie propaganda sugar today.

The incompetent west then developed groundbreaking new and very effective vaccines while the best of the best will full state support of the mighty CCP produced a vaccine that is best avoided if you want to stay alive. 

Democracy is a horrible system, but by a million miles it is by far the best system we have.

Yes, the vaccines are effective, but effective vaccines have also come from China and Russia.  

 

Even if the vaccines do stop the epidemic in the US, 900,000 (not 618,000) people died entirely due to the failure of the government.  China, S. Korea, Viet Nam, Taiwan, and other countries did not just let people die while waiting for a vaccine as the US, Brazil, Sweden, and the UK did.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

Yes, the vaccines are effective, but effective vaccines have also come from China and Russia.  

 

Even if the vaccines do stop the epidemic in the US, 900,000 (not 618,000) people died entirely due to the failure of the government.  China, S. Korea, Viet Nam, Taiwan, and other countries did not just let people die while waiting for a vaccine as the US, Brazil, Sweden, and the UK did.

Are you in China at the moment ?

[cmarshall]

16 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Mao did that in a slow year. CCP are the pro, when is comes to mass culling.

Yes, Mao was a mass murderer, but that was in the 50's.  Since Pol Pot in 1975 it looks to me like only the US has achieved the atrocity level of a million innocent people dead.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Yes, Mao was a mass murderer, but that was in the 50's.  Since Pol Pot in 1975 it looks to me like only the US has achieved the atrocity level of a million innocent people dead.

You are making a false allegation again 

[MrJ2U]

On 8/11/2021 at 9:06 AM, internationalism said:

For over a year nobody expected thailand to be in situation it is now.

Little miss China.

[HaoleBoy]

Thailand still struggling to import Pfizer or Moderna.  And the donated Pfizer from the US no one knows where it is going ...

 

China obtained an agreement to purchase 100 million BioNTech (Pfizer) vaccine doses back in Dec '20.  They are sitting on this Pfizer and have not "approved" it yet, but are moving very close to doing so now with the Delta variant taking hold in China.  I guess China hid this from Thailand and continued pushing its own Sinovac then Sinopharm vaccines to Thailand and the world.

 

Chinese media outlet Caixin reported that Chinese regulators had completed a review of the COVID-19 jab developed by German mRNA vaccine maker BioNTech and distributed locally via China’s Fosun Pharma. Fosun is still awaiting final approval from regulators, but, once approved, Fosun could deploy the 100 million doses it acquired from BioNTech last December to the Chinese market by the end of 2021.  

 

Each region (or big city) in China is in essence its own "sandbox" with up to 4 week quarantine periods for people moving around.  China can get away with this due to its Gov ...

 

China (or Xi) can not afford to lose face at this point, but may have to soon.  The 2022 Olympics are coming up in Feb '22 and Xi's re-election is coming up in Feb '22 as well ... 

Edited August 13, 2021 by HaoleBoy

[Boomer6969]

On 8/11/2021 at 5:30 AM, cmarshall said:

China also began its vaccination program in December.  As of Aug. 3 they have administered 1.7 billion doses.  

Hmmmhh, I am puzzled, how did they get so many Pfizer doses?

 

Maybe they make their own copies and finance the production by exporting their own sub standard products at twice the price of a Pfizer in the West?

[SABloke]

On 8/11/2021 at 6:30 AM, cmarshall said:

By doing mass testing on this scale the Chinese government was able to avoid lockdowns and the economic hit that would have resulted.  

They didn't fully avoid lock-downs though. They locked down the entire city of Yantai for a week while they did mass testing. However, after doing two rounds of testing, they identified a handful of infected people and then opened up again. I feel that lock-downs (Western style) don't every really work because they're not actually lock-downs. The Chinese style of lock-downs, (while seemingly excessively strict) are successful and if being locked down for two weeks can mean having the freedom to socialize and go to schools etc. (Which is what happens in China) I would go for the Chinese lock down.

[cmarshall]

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are making a false allegation again 

I have presented evidence.  You have not.