Lock downs

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

So another 5 to 10 years of lock downs then?

Clearly, you don't understand what effectiveness commonly means and what it doesn't mean in regards to the covid vaccines.

[newnative]

    Strict lockdowns seem to have worked in New Zealand but what I don't understand is why their vaccination program has been so slow--less than 30% vaccinated.  They did the lockdown great with good discipline that kept infections low but have botched the vaccination part, from what I can see.  Australia in some respects seems to be similar.  

[cclub75]

14 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Those bleating about lockdowns not working and/or ruining people’s lives ought to pause for a moment and consider what would happen if the virus was left unchecked to create vastly more ill people; hospitals and medical services completely overrun and the logistics of food supplies collapsing.

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

[Chomper Higgot]

41 minutes ago, cclub75 said:

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

Population density?!

[Chomper Higgot]

33 minutes ago, jackspade said:

 I never said it invalidated your point.
 

If the various highly effective and safe treatments for COVID, most notably Ivermectin, were enacted worldwide, the lockdowns would not be required.

Look at the graphs in the link I provided. The data clearly indicates a relationship between the instantiation of Ivermectin medical protocols on national scales in South American and other nations, and a sudden drop in COVID cases.

Tell me what is wrong with those graphs.

If people take the highly effective and safe vaccines the incidence of infection drops, lockdowns are no longer required and far far fewer people need treatment for the disease.

 

The best cure for any disease is not to catch it in the first place.

[mrfill]

45 minutes ago, cclub75 said:

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

Can't think why you didn't compare against its immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland.

One tenth of the death rate of Sweden. - 148 per million in the case of Norway, 182 per million in the case of Finland.

 

Not good for the rhetoric though.

 

[jackspade]

52 minutes ago, cclub75 said:

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

To be fair, this is hardly statistically significant.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, jackspade said:

What are you talking about? A highly effective treatment—high 80%s—has already been found. Data here (though I'm sure you won't actually look at it):

https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/

The FDA disagrees.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, jackspade said:

Wait... highly "effective and safe" vaccines... did you just say what I think you said?

re: "effective": It's been clearly shown lately that the vaccines are ineffective at curing or preventing the spread of the virus.  That's why booster shots are required.

re: "safe": Sure, getting a vaccine MIGHT be better for an elderly diabetic than contracting COVID (although the data is still out)—BUT it's also been clearly indicated that these are the least safe vaccines in all of human history. Just look at the VAERS data.

I am starting to really worry about where you people are trying to go with these arguments...

Nobody has ever claimed the vaccines cure COVID - Away with your nonsense.

 

I suggest you look at the data for hospitalizations and deaths from COVID in States and Nations with low vaccine uptake.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, jackspade said:

Is that all you have? An appeal to authority?

That is the root of the problem. So many people go around quoting their favorite AOOs (Abbreviated Official Offices), newspapers and prime time TV shows instead of actually doing the hard work and digging into any of these scholarly journal articles backed by hundreds of scientists. It's just plain lazy.

CIA said it, must be true, right?
FBI said it... must be true.

Have you ever opened a history book?

I’m not a doctor, I’m not a virologist, so I’ll rely on the expertise of those trained and educated specialists employed by the government to assess the effectiveness and safety of the medicines I and my family use.

 

Your problem with this bothers me not one not.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, jackspade said:

Please—enough of the strawmans. I said "cured OR prevented".

In fact, before it was proven that they did not actually prevent contraction or spread of the virus, many, MANY people claimed that the vaccines would PREVENT covid.

In fact, that that very claim was the status quo.

I’m not sure who you have been listening to, I know of no medical professionals claiming vaccines ‘prevent’ contacting or spreading this disease - The advice has been consistent vaccines reduce the chances of being infected, reduce the chances of severe outcome if infected and reduce the time for which the viral load remains high enough to spread the disease.

 

I fo however accept you might have read something different on some random blog or social media meme.

[Rimmer]

Multiple conspiracy troll posts and replies have been removed:

 

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[jackspade]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Since you have now reached the point of calling me a liar I feel I ought ask you to back up your own claims.

 

 

Provide evidence of claims that the vaccines would be 100% effective.

What are you on, bro? Are you that out of touch? People—doctors, presidents, officials—were saying it all over the news media, throughout 2020 and earlier this year.

As perhaps one of the best-known examples, ol' Joe Biden himself said it. He was fact checked. News article here:

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/verify/biden-falsely-claims-people-vaccinated-against-covid-19-cant-get-infected/531-bd262f52-e4a1-4ff8-9855-9a7e0ece588f

According to your own logic, this proves you're a liar. Although personally I just feel you're terribly misinformed. SMH

Edited August 25, 2021 by jackspade

[cooked]

12 hours ago, rainham said:

The Vaccine doesn't stop you getting Covid or even spreading it. But it significantly increases your chance of not dying, locking down wearing a mask, washing your hands, etc just changes the date you get it.

OK, I'll take the bait. Lockdowns don't work, see what happened in Sweden. 

Last time I looked, there have been 27 studies since this panicdemie started showing that even properly worn cloth masks won't prevent YOU getting infected, will only prevent you from infecting others if you are sneezing and spluttering all over the place and are INDOORS, and the likelihood that you can catch Covid from surfaces is extremely unlikely.

It looks increasingly as if some vaccines will increase your chances of contracting the Delta variant, I am SUBMITTING to my need to be able to travel by taking the vaccines as instructed.

 

[wwest5829]

16 hours ago, chessman said:

How are you defining ‘worked’? If life was lived normally, the Delta variant would probably double the number of cases every 3-5 days. 
 

the purpose of a lockdown is to reduce the R0 number and the speed of the spread. If that is the goal then they undoubtedly ‘work’.

 

Whether reducing the spread is worth the economic and social costs of a lockdown is the real question although allowing the virus to spread among an entire population would also have extreme economic and social consequences. That is why most governments around the world have tried to walk the line between restrictions to inhibit the spread whilst allowing the majority of economic activity to continue. 

 

 

Not worth addressing the post. As he stated, “as far as I know”. That explains much …

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, cclub75 said:

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

The obvious nations to compare Sweden with are its 3 neighbors, particularly Norway and Finland. Like Sweden they have an excellent health system, low population density, and similar ways of living. Sweden performed abysmally compared to them. And even against Denmark, its fellow Scandinavian neighbor to the South, which is far more densely populated, Sweden performed badly.

Edited August 25, 2021 by placeholder

[Phuum]

33 minutes ago, mrfill said:

Can't think why you didn't compare against its immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland.

One tenth of the death rate of Sweden. - 148 per million in the case of Norway, 182 per million in the case of Finland.

 

Not good for the rhetoric though.

 

You could look at Scandinavia alone and draw the conclusion that Sweden has botched something in its Covid strategy compared to its neighbors. But there are other explanations to the difference in numbers.

 

Sweden's care homes for the elderly are larger and have more residents, so when the virus spread in this environment early in the plandemic this resulted in many deaths.

 

Sweden also has plenty of immigrant ghettos where people don't speak, or bother learning the language, so these communities had an information disadvantage on how to limit transmission. Younger family members would keep intermingling with the older family members according to their culture, further inflating the numbers.

 

Considering Sweden did not have a single day of forced lockdown and no mask-wearing mandates what-so-ever there should be no Swedes alive today according to the Covid-19 fear-mongers.

 

Let's put it this way: If you were given the task of finding the one country that ignored WHO guidelines and trusted their own expertise - by looking through worldwide statistics on infection rates and deaths - would you be able to single out Sweden?

 

Answer: NO.

 

 

[placeholder]

46 minutes ago, cooked said:

It looks increasingly as if some vaccines will increase your chances of contracting the Delta variant, I am SUBMITTING to my need to be able to travel by taking the vaccines as instructed.

 

This is utterly false. Stop making things up.

[placeholder]

Just now, Phuum said:

Considering Sweden did not have a single day of forced lockdown and no mask-wearing mandates what-so-ever there should be no Swedes alive today according to the Covid-19 fear-mongers.

Why should anybody pay any attention at all to someone who would write such nonsense?

[Phuum]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why should anybody pay any attention at all to someone who would write such nonsense?

Nonsense? If you read my post from start to finish it makes perfect sense. But let me explain it one more time.

 

Sweden didn't lockdown. In spite of this there was no uncontrolled spread of the virus, no overwhelming of the hospitals. The excess death (all causes) for the year 2020 was 1.5%.

 

The big picture is that in spite of passing on both lockdowns and mask mandates the numbers are not that alarming. And the promised disaster when leaving the virus 'unchecked' never materialized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Phuum said:

Nonsense? If you read my post from start to finish it makes perfect sense. But let me explain it one more time.

 

Sweden didn't lockdown. In spite of this there was no uncontrolled spread of the virus, no overwhelming of the hospitals. The excess death (all causes) for the year 2020 was 1.5%.

 

The big picture is that in spite of passing on both lockdowns and mask mandates the numbers are not that alarming. And the promised disaster when leaving the virus 'unchecked' never materialized.

Sweden has one of the best public health systems in the world. As for their medical system not being overwhelmed, I guess that depends on what you mean by overwhelmed.

SWeden’s Covid Workers Are Quitting in Dangerous Numbers

The development shows that even countries with universal health-care systems are struggling to keep up with the Covid crisis. This week, Stockholm’s intensive care capacity hit 99%, sending the city into a panic and prompting calls for outside help.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-12/swedish-covid-workers-are-quitting-leaving-icus-short-staffed

Edited August 25, 2021 by placeholder

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, cclub75 said:

This is anti-science. Look a Sweden. No lockdown, thank you very much. And ?

 

Lower number of deads (in proportions) than France or UK.

 

1 438 versus 1 736 and 1 931 (deads per million, source Worldometer).

Sweden has consistently done worse than it's neighbors. Same is true today.

 

Comparing them to countries that are not like them, or near them, doesn't make sense. Though covid deniers desperately try.

[Jeffr2]

Lockdowns are just one part of the strategy to contain covid. Without proper testing and jabs, it's all some countries have.

 

A study just came out showing countries that did lockdowns fared a bit better economically than ones who didn't. I'll find the article.

 

If we want lockdowns to end, we need more vaccinated. It's our only way out of this mess.

[Stevemercer]

Most countries are committed to the lock down approach and will have to continue until 80% of the population has been vaccinated.

 

The criteria will then change to number of deaths per 1000 Covid cases and whether the hospital system can cope with the expected number of severe cases for a largely immunised population (this is about 10% that of an unimmunised population).

 

The threshold will, hopefully, be high enough that lockdowns will be avoided.

 

I imagine most countries have already done these calculations. 

[CharlieH]

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[1FinickyOne]

 

there is a virus going around that we cannot and are not sure how to handle... probably nobody has all the answers at this point as the virus grows more dangerous... 

 

putting on a mask, avoiding crowds, seem like logical responses to an airborne easily contagious virus and yet many people go against that. 

 

When the spreading gets out of control, trying a lockdown makes sense... unfortunately business as usual is killing many and making many others sick. 

 

We 'mostly' self impose a limited lockdown, staying home.. it seems a wiser course than business as usual.. in some places people refuse a vaccine... then they get sick and infect others... that also does not sound reasonable. Imagine if that were the attitude w/polio and smallpox??? 

 

I am fortunate and my family is cautious and we do not need to go out and make a living. We help some others who are not as fortunate... 

 

good luck to you and stay safe... 

[ifmu]

21 hours ago, rainham said:

Anyhow i digress, lock downs haven't worked anywhere yet, still governments around the globe continue forcing them on us.

The truth is everyone of us will get covid sooner or later vaccines and our immune systems ability to produce antibodies will eventually win the day 

lock downs have not worked because of idiot tourists and residents of usa uk fr etc  not caring about mask vacc science and spreading the virus more  .. so with a few exceptions WE are the idiots causing the probs

AND no light at the end of the tunnel yet ... long way to go for above reasons

[bbabythai]

My only answer to this topic is 'duh'

[Scott Tracy]

15 hours ago, rainham said:

I'm not saying that friend, i know the NHS is in a critical condition  but that's not through Covid. Governments have spent the last 20 years ripping bit's off it now its got to the point that they would be saying protect the NHS if a coach crashed at south Mimms ????

How would you propose the NHS operates? To a standard that says each person is entitled to see a GP on the day they get sick? Each person is entitled to be seen immediately, irrespective of what the emergency is? That the number of hospitals and staff and ancillaries are sufficient such that if any person gets sick, they get seen immediately? Or perhaps, the standard that says, hospitals and such will be sufficient, depending on number of people in a catchment area, age and infirmities in the area, possible number of coach crashes per year, air crashes per year, football stadia, where there may be a fight or 3, Friday night brawls, etc...?

 

How would you run the NHS?

[jackspade]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

A study just came out showing countries that did lockdowns fared a bit better economically than ones who didn't. I'll find the article.

Find that article.