Removing walls within an apartment: who decides what is allowed in a condominium?

[OneMoreFarang]

I am looking at apartments in condominiums which I think about buying and renovating

If I buy it I want to remove a wall within the apartment. And maybe build the kitchen on another side of the bathroom.

From whom can I get legally binding answers about what is possible (considering the construction and load bearing walls in the building) and allowed and what not?

 

I.e. I have a construction drawing from a condominium and I see that some walls are "thick" and other walls are thinner. I guess the thick walls are load bearing walls which can't be removed and the thinner walls can probably be removed. Who can confirm that? I don't think it's good enough if I ask the current owner of the apartment unit or the manager of the building. They tell me likely what I like to hear. So who can give a reliable answer? Maybe some supervisor technician in the building? Or should any architect be able to answer that by looking at the construction drawings?

 

I don't want to buy a unit assuming that I can remove a "thin" wall and later I find out I am not allowed to remove it.

[The Hammer2021]

The condo managers and actual owners.

[ChaiyaTH]

As far I understood there is no such thing as 'load bearing walls' in condo construction in Thailand, they work with pillars. I heard the actual problem is that piping and wires are between walls of apartments often making it impossible to buy 2 studio's and turn it into 1 larger one. Aside of not getting permissions of course.

 

- Not sure what is true but I otherwise also have many plans for cheap studio's x 2 and turn into 1.

Edited November 23, 2021 by ChaiyaTH

[OneMoreFarang]

3 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

As far I understood there is no such thing as 'load bearing walls' in condo construction in Thailand, they work with pillars. I heard the actual problem is that piping and wires are between walls of apartments often making it impossible to buy 2 studio's and turn it into 1 larger one. Aside of not getting permissions of course.

 

- Not sure what is true but I otherwise also have many plans for cheap studio's x 2 and turn into 1.

Thanks

In the building plans which I looked at there are no pillars at all. There are some "thick" walls mostly between the units every 8 meter. I am 90% sure those are load bearing walls.

[Airalee]

I can understand your desire for a wide open floor plan, but I think that buying an older unit thinking you’ll transform it into some kind of soho loft is going to end up being an absolute nightmare and an expensive one at that…if it’s even possible.  You may end up with the most expensive unit in the building (comparatively speaking) and that’s usually not a good thing.

 

Yes, 99% of the floor plans here in Thailand are somewhat wonky, but I think that ultimately you’ll be way ahead of the game if you can find one of the 1% that you can live with and just do a cosmetic remodel (kitchen, bath, floors).

[ChaiyaTH]

12 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks

In the building plans which I looked at there are no pillars at all. There are some "thick" walls mostly between the units every 8 meter. I am 90% sure those are load bearing walls.

Seems logical to me, maybe the person who told me that part is more into houses. I still wonder if it would be allowed if those walls aren't tho, just a double door between the places or even a normal single door would be plenty for such ideas.

 

Often you get nicer studio sale prices as well buildings / views, if combined with 2 units, are bigger and better deals than the new shoebox style 1br condo's of the more recent years.

Edited November 23, 2021 by ChaiyaTH

[ourdon]

1 hour ago, The Hammer2021 said:

The condo managers and actual owners.

Yes !!!.  Distributed services and load bearing may be handled quite differently in commercial high rise vs residential high rise.  The building owners get the say in who gets to rip which walls out of their building.

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

From whom can I get legally binding answers about what is possible (considering the construction and load bearing walls in the building) and allowed and what not?

 

From a member of the Association of Thai Structural Engineers. A licensed Thai structural engineer is pretty much the only person who can give you a legally binding answer that you will be able to rely on in Court should any part of the building become overstressed, damaged or fail as a result of your or your agent's actions.

 

Or, and this is the important point, should you be accused of damaging the common property of the building whether you did so or not.

 

You are an old hand in Thailand, and you know very well that this could go awry, which is why I suspect you are taking the very sensible path of asking for advice.

 

It would cost nothing for a small group of co-owners to petition the police and lodge a complaint against you, which as you well know, would immediately put you on the back foot.

 

This might seem like a serious answer, but I cannot simply say that removing all the "thin" walls would be an ok thing to do.

[scubascuba3]

You will have a building manager and maybe an engineer, my condo has, look for those, also ask a committee member.

 

Many older condos it's normal to knock through 2 smaller studios

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks

In the building plans which I looked at there are no pillars at all. There are some "thick" walls mostly between the units every 8 meter. I am 90% sure those are load bearing walls.

How many floors in the building?

Most buildings in Thailand (if not all)  , are of beam and  column construction .Definitely any building more than a couple of floors high. Personally I have not seen one that was not. 

Some walls are thicker for a couple of reasons,  One, and the main reason is they contain mechanicals , and the other is that they contain transfer beams and columns.

A transfer beam is a beam where the building steps back  and the columns that continue up are not supported by a column below.so a missive beam is designed to carry the load. 

Knocking walls down in a multy-floor  requires permission  from a structural engineer for what should be  obvious reasons. 

First you could disturb and disrupt mechanicals for the apartments above you, and second and more important, you could affect the structural integrity of the building.

Edited November 23, 2021 by sirineou

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, blackcab said:

From a member of the Association of Thai Structural Engineers. A licensed Thai structural engineer is pretty much the only person who can give you a legally binding answer that you will be able to rely on in Court should any part of the building become overstressed, damaged or fail as a result of your or your agent's actions.

Thanks for all of your answers. Frist I guess I will talk to a committee member who I know and who completely renovated a unit in that place a few years ago. He will know from whom he got the permission and how that worked.

 

To address a few points: The building which I am looking at the moment has > 30 floors. I borrowed from the the manager construction drawings of the whole building (not just one unit or floor). I can clearly see there are no columns but thick walls in a pattern every 8 meter.

I know that in different units people added doors and windows in the internal thin walls. But until now I didn't see if anybody removed such a wall completely.

 

About wires and water pipes in those walls: On the construction drawing I can see clearly see where the fresh water and wastewater pipes are. And a shaft with lots of big wastewater pipes. I am aware that I can't touch those areas - and I don't plan to do that.

 

All in all I am still looking at what's available. And when I think I want to buy one unit and renovate it by ripping out a wall or two then I will make sure I confirm that in writing before I buy that unit.

Asking the building manager might be a first step. But it seems many managers don't even know the size of several units (off my more than 10%). So I definitely don't want to rely on the verbal information of one of those manager. I don't want to end up "he told me I can do that" and then I can't.

[Gottfrid]

The answer is simple! Inside the condo, you are the owner as you are saying you are looking to buy. That means you own the condo, and as long as you do not alter the specifics of the construction structure, by removing any load bearing walls as you say, then you are free to alter and design you condo as you see fit. In any other case you will need to seek permission from the juristic person. The juristic person will need to seek permission from owners who will need to seek permission based upon tests filed to the right authority to make any changes to the structure and specifics of the building.

[ChaiyaTH]

8 hours ago, sirineou said:

How many floors in the building?

Most buildings in Thailand (if not all)  , are of beam and  column construction .Definitely any building more than a couple of floors high. Personally I have not seen one that was not. 

Some walls are thicker for a couple of reasons,  One, and the main reason is they contain mechanicals , and the other is that they contain transfer beams and columns.

A transfer beam is a beam where the building steps back  and the columns that continue up are not supported by a column below.so a missive beam is designed to carry the load. 

Knocking walls down in a multy-floor  requires permission  from a structural engineer for what should be  obvious reasons. 

First you could disturb and disrupt mechanicals for the apartments above you, and second and more important, you could affect the structural integrity of the building.

So my friend was right then, thanks.

 

Funny too as i passed an abandoned unfinished condo today without any walls showing that exactly.

Edited November 24, 2021 by ChaiyaTH

[bkk6060]

12 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

don't want to buy a unit assuming that I can remove a "thin" wall and later I find out I am not allowed to remove it.

Probably no one will check or know.  But if the ceiling comes crashing down, you will realize it was a bad choice.

[tontraveller]

Usually condos has a committee. 

Your request has to be forwarded by the manager to the committee..

Most condos has regulations in place anyway..You should check with the manager..

[inThailand]

This actually is a complicated issue, which touches on what can you do on your own property, ie condo, to the common area property and services, to load bearing issues, to who gives approval or is such even needed, ie the condo Bylaws, to liability if things go wrong. 

 

Suggestion, get a Thai certified engineer to certify plans for the work you want done. Submit them to the condo Juristic Person manager via registered post, which is legal notification. My guess it's <deleted> a shoot whether the condo mgmt will allow or disallow your work, most likely just because they don't know. But with their written approval and engineers blessing, I would proceed. I may even proceed without their approval for most if not all condo structures are post and beam construction, ie none of the walls internal or outside are load bearing. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by inThailand

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

13 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

don't want to buy a unit assuming that I can remove a "thin" wall and later I find out I am not allowed to remove it.

Probably no one will check or know.

Unless they can hear the sound of walls being demolished!

[dddave]

In the condo I rent in Jomtien, the owner has to get all sorts of permissions to do any kind of work in the unit, whether structural, electrical or plumbing.  Also, the work can only be done by contractors approved by the condo association and have credentials on file at the Juristic office.  Since the unit is a rental and not his residence, he can do no work himself.

He has to arrange for notices to be posted in lobby areas of scheduled work at least 5 days before the work starts.  Work cannot begin before 10AM and not past 4PM.  Deliveries of building materials must be scheduled and only the service lift used to bring them up.

 

The unit I rent is a 2BR unit in a 30 year old building.  The unit was converted to a 2BR by joining 2 adjacent studio units about 20 years ago.

There are 3 AC units: one for the main kitchen/living area and one for each bedroom.

I didn't get my first electric bill until close to the end of my 2nd month of residency and was surprised how low it was considering the 3 AC units.

 

"Mai phen rai.  Electric company give Covid discount"  I was skeptical.

 

My skepticism was borne out when I got a panicked call from my rental agent in the 3rd month decrying my not paying my electric bill for 3 months...this, the same useless agent who said "Mai phen rai".

 

There was some entertaining yelling and screaming between my condo owner, the Juristic manager and the agent.  (At this point I learned that the owner had bought the unit almost 2 years before but I was the first occupant)

 

It turned out that the 2 joined studios are still separate units on the condo books and still have separate power meters. There was a separate electricity bill for the 2 bedrooms which the Juristic office had just pigeon-holed somewhere.  It wasn't dealt with until the electric authority sent a tech to shut the power off. 

 

Of course, they tried to blame me for late payment of the bill I never got.

And people ask me why I rent and don't buy.

Edited November 24, 2021 by dddave

[tomazbodner]

Done that before. Had to get it cleared with juristic office. And had to pay a hefty deposit to cover all damages that my construction endeavor could cause to others. It was very close to a 6 digit figure.

[chilly07]

Don't. If it's a 30 storey block any alterations involving demolition will bring claims for damage from all directions as well as disruption of quiet enjoyment.

Look for another unit with a layout you can live with.

[OneMoreFarang]

49 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

Don't. If it's a 30 storey block any alterations involving demolition will bring claims for damage from all directions as well as disruption of quiet enjoyment.

Look for another unit with a layout you can live with.

Thanks for your answer. Do you have any personal experience with that or know about problems from reliable people? Or is this just a guess of what might happen?

If a wall is no load bearing wall and there are not pipes in it then it should be easy and fast to rip it out. And if there is no load bearing then it shouldn't matter when that wall is gone.

[ChaiyaTH]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks for your answer. Do you have any personal experience with that or know about problems from reliable people? Or is this just a guess of what might happen?

If a wall is no load bearing wall and there are not pipes in it then it should be easy and fast to rip it out. And if there is no load bearing then it shouldn't matter when that wall is gone.

Until you think there is nothing in the wall, and while breaking it the pipes all burst + get caught hehehe. Just do it!

[wwest5829]

12 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

You will have a building manager and maybe an engineer, my condo has, look for those, also ask a committee member.

 

Many older condos it's normal to knock through 2 smaller studios

my only experience was here in Chiang Mai. I bought three 33 sqm rooms (bath to the rear of each. Turned the first into living/dining room and the bath was turned into a kitchen. The 2nd room became a bedroom and the hall door bricked in. The 3rd became my office and the hall door was left. All three had a small balcony. These were enclosed in the reconstruction which also included replacing all widows. The one air conditioner I installed in the bedroom cooled the approx. 100 sim. Sliding doors were installed between the rooms. Worked out well for me. Purchase, reconstruction and furnishing came to 1 million baht which is what I sold it for while retaining the moveable furniture. Sold because I feel when I croak (I am 74), I could not see my Sons coming from the US to deal with disposing of property.

[OneMoreFarang]

25 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Until you think there is nothing in the wall, and while breaking it the pipes all burst + get caught hehehe. Just do it!

That's the reason why construction plans exist.

[watboy]

9 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

About wires and water pipes in those walls: On the construction drawing I can see clearly see where the fresh water and wastewater pipes are. And a shaft with lots of big wastewater pipes. I am aware that I can't touch those areas - and I don't plan to do that.

Construction drawings and actual build are not always the same.

[OneMoreFarang]

44 minutes ago, watboy said:

Construction drawings and actual build are not always the same.

Yes, I agree,

But even in Thailand there is a certain logic to pipes and wires.

Waste water flows from somewhere into the vertical main pipes. It is relative easy to get an idea where those pipes must be.

Fresh water flows from the water meters to bathrooms and kitchens. That is also easy to follow.

And for electricity there is one main box for each apartment. The wires from the building to that main box can't be touched. The wires insider the apartment can be changed, no problem.

[newnative]

      I would start with the condo management.   When my partner and I have done renovations that involved actual structural changes they had to be approved before work started and the work was inspected when we were finished.  You want to make sure you are not doing any unsafe work that could negatively impact the building's structure and endanger other residents.

     Whether they are referred to as load-bearing walls or load-bearing pillars, both terms are referring to walls of varying widths that, in most cases, cannot be removed, especially in highrises.   Some are, indeed, pillar-width but others can be wider than a typical pillar. 

     In the plan I'll post, you'll see the thicker load-bearing walls in this project are wider than a pillar.  If you had two side-by-side units you could probably break through where the dining room is or the bedroom closet but not where the sofa or bed are--those wall sections are load-bearing. 

     In this plan, we removed a low wall about 40cm high on the balcony that separated the seating area from the area in green to make a larger, more usable balcony seating area.  Even though the structural change was minimal, we still had our plans approved by the condo management to make sure we weren't doing anything unsafe with the building's balcony construction. 

[Chris.B]

You need a structural engineer and he will need the full set of structural drawings and structural calculations for the building.

 

[Chris.B]

6 hours ago, inThailand said:

Suggestion, get a Thai certified engineer to certify plans for the work you want done. Submit them to the condo Juristic Person manager via registered post, which is legal notification. My guess it's <deleted> a shoot whether the condo mgmt will allow or disallow your work, most likely just because they don't know. But with their written approval and engineers blessing, I would proceed. I may even proceed without their approval for most if not all condo structures are post and beam construction, ie none of the walls internal or outside are load bearing. 

You don't even know the correct terminology for the building's structure but would take walls out on an assumption. ???? In China, people are executed for causing collapse of buildings.

 

How do you know the walls are not bracing the buildings frames against lateral loads? It's a rhetorical question so no need to answer. It is clear you know nothing about building construction. ☹️

 

[natway09]

Would be surprised if any walls in a condo are structural  ( unless 40 +  years old) but the duct walls you will not be able to interfere with. The building columns are the part you cannot touch.

The only problem I see is the sewerage & many apartments have a maximum of 3 metres that you are allowed an internal water pipe