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Pattaya to get huge new beachside development


Jonathan Fairfield
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34 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Exactly. Any comparison with other countries is irrelevant as they probably have good city paid for infrastructure, while Pattaya public infrastructure is a disgrace, and a danger to any that walk on the pavements ( if one is even able to do so, and might be risking one's life in the road ).

 

A high end resort, being built in the middle of the world's biggest red light area, which can only attract cheap package holiday makers from developing nations.  

 

Without a casino inside, I can't see this development being profitable.    

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2 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

A high end resort, being built in the middle of the world's biggest red light area, which can only attract cheap package holiday makers from developing nations.  

 

Without a casino inside, I can't see this development being profitable.    

Some of us know why city hall encourages such projects ( and IMO it's nothing to do with making the city a better place ). 

However one has to wonder if the ban on casinos is going to end, with projects like this being promoted.

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18 hours ago, newnative said:

You stated Festival wasn't doing well because you saw some closed stores.  I used the Tysons example to explain to you that even an extremely successful mall will sometimes have closed stores.  It's normal.  That was the relevance--as you well knew.

 

 

More than a few closed stores.

 

Is the Tyson's you speak of in the middle of "The World's Brothel?" 

 

Comparing Pattaya to Orlando is not relevant. 

 

19 hours ago, newnative said:

Yes, chain stores may have closed at Festival.   Once again, see Tysons example above--absolutely normal, all over the World.   You failed to mention that at the same time a few Festival chains might have been closing, other Festival chains like Uniqlo and H&M, as well as a number of the restaurant chains, opened second stores just down the street at T21.  Some businesses work, some don't.  Again, normal.   

 

Once again, you fail to address the impact on the "investment" in Central, when T21 was approved and built.  Or are you also going to say Central was doomed from day one, like The Avenue?

 

Perhaps in a few years you will be saying T21 was doomed from day one, after this new development is built.   

 

You also failed to reply to the question, how many malls / hotels do you think Pattaya can support?  If it's not currently at saturation, in your opinion, how many before it will be?

 

19 hours ago, newnative said:

Aquatique is not a mall.  So, your remarks regarding 'three malls' aren't relevant.  It won't really be direct competition for either Festival or T21 but, rather, will bring in many more customers for both, and also other area businesses. 

 

Why will it?  Is there a hotel shortage it Pattaya?  

 

19 hours ago, newnative said:

I stand by my remarks on The Base and Edge.   Your comments regarding infrastructure hold no relevance and obviously the state of the infrastructure has not deterred construction of either Edge or the new hotel going up across from Festival.   Or, any of the other numerous new builds around town, a number still going on.

 

Did they sell all of the condo's in The Base? You didn't say, and as a previous owner, I thought you would know.

 

Of course the area where a property is located is relevant. Ever heard the saying, "Location, location, location?"  Who is going to pay big baht for a luxury property that's in the middle of a sh*tehole?

 

19 hours ago, newnative said:

You say, 'Don't you see all the extra condos being built around your own condo as competing for buyers?'  What 'extra condos'? 

 

The Edge, built near to The Base, not to mention the thousands of other condo's on the market at the moment.  All those condo's for sale are in competition for the buyers that are on the market.

 

It was you that mentioned The Edge as raising the value of property at The Base, and I am suggesting that may not be the case.

 

Are you suggesting the market forces of supply and demand are not applicable to the Pattaya property market?

 

In your opinion, do you think there is an oversupply of condo's here, or not?

 

19 hours ago, newnative said:

I remain of the opinion that it will be a positive for Pattaya if it gets built.  

 

Once again, you only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar. 

 

I agree, what a great building.  What great facilities.  However, it was you that said it was a good "investment."  The investment is the money that gets the property built. 

 

I simply put to you what about the lost investment in Central and T21 that this development will cause?  Is that not also "investment" in Pattaya, which is set to significantly decrease in value now this development has been approved?

 

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37 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some of us know why city hall encourages such projects ( and IMO it's nothing to do with making the city a better place ). 

However one has to wonder if the ban on casinos is going to end, with projects like this being promoted.

 

One sign is a helipad.  

 

Does this development have a helipad in it's design?  

 

Some of the casinos in Vietnam have helipads for the high rollers.

 

https://thegrandhotram.com/gaming/

 

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2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

More than a few closed stores.

 

Is the Tyson's you speak of in the middle of "The World's Brothel?" 

 

Comparing Pattaya to Orlando is not relevant. 

 

 

Once again, you fail to address the impact on the "investment" in Central, when T21 was approved and built.  Or are you also going to say Central was doomed from day one, like The Avenue?

 

Perhaps in a few years you will be saying T21 was doomed from day one, after this new development is built.   

 

You also failed to reply to the question, how many malls / hotels do you think Pattaya can support?  If it's not currently at saturation, in your opinion, how many before it will be?

 

 

Why will it?  Is there a hotel shortage it Pattaya?  

 

 

Did they sell all of the condo's in The Base? You didn't say, and as a previous owner, I thought you would know.

 

Of course the area where a property is located is relevant. Ever heard the saying, "Location, location, location?"  Who is going to pay big baht for a luxury property that's in the middle of a sh*tehole?

 

 

The Edge, built near to The Base, not to mention the thousands of other condo's on the market at the moment.  All those condo's for sale are in competition for the buyers that are on the market.

 

It was you that mentioned The Edge as raising the value of property at The Base, and I am suggesting that may not be the case.

 

Are you suggesting the market forces of supply and demand are not applicable to the Pattaya property market?

 

In your opinion, do you think there is an oversupply of condo's here, or not?

 

 

Once again, you only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar. 

 

I agree, what a great building.  What great facilities.  However, it was you that said it was a good "investment."  The investment is the money that gets the property built. 

 

I simply put to you what about the lost investment in Central and T21 that this development will cause?  Is that not also "investment" in Pattaya, which is set to significantly decrease in value now this development has been approved?

 

     I think I have made the points I wanted to make.   I will just add that your knowledge of how people actually shop for property, be it a house or a condo, and how properties actually get sold, is woefully lacking, as you have also shown with many of the statements you have made regarding retail, Central Festival, T21, and this proposed project.  

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5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. I've visited pretty much every "attraction" in Pattaya over the years, except golf, for which I have no desires at all. When I visited the bottle museum the proprietor was surprised to see a farang there, as I was the first farang to visit it.

Nong Nooch and Temple of Truth were the best, but I wouldn't visit Thailand because of them.

I must confess I don't think I'd ever heard of the Bottle Museum before your post--yet another farang who has not visited it.  

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2 hours ago, newnative said:

     I think I have made the points I wanted to make.   I will just add that your knowledge of how people actually shop for property, be it a house or a condo, and how properties actually get sold, is woefully lacking, as you have also shown with many of the statements you have made regarding retail, Central Festival, T21, and this proposed project.  

 

Really?  

 

I own a few properties, on three different continents.

 

As for retail, I know what I see, and that's empty shops.

 

I'll take your post as a no response.    

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11 hours ago, JensenZ said:

It is called enterprise. Competition.  Developers/investors don't concern themselves with the success or failure of existng businesses. They plan to do better, by building something superior. The non profitable existing enterprises will fail and eventually disappear if they cannot compete. This is just the way capitalism works in a free market. A lot of older expats that have lived in Pattaya forever are living in the past, clinging to memories of a bygone era.  

 

Pattaya only has 2 real shopping malls (Central and T21), and only 1 department store at Central Festivial. They don't build new malls based on the current covid retricted market. They are looking to the future. That's what all succesful investors do. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose - it's all part of the game.

LOL. Royal Garden and Mike's were doing a pretty good job of impersonating a mall then. Even the non AC Big C was a "mall" IMO.

 

Not being psychic, I have no idea of what Pattaya will be like once the world returns to something resembling what was before corona, but I've seen what an unsuccessful investment in a mall looks like- it's in Chiang Mai, the Promenada. IMO they took a gamble on upmarket residential construction in that area, but were either too soon, or too wrong.

 

BTW it's not a "game" to the small business owners that rent space in those malls, and go broke when the mall fails to attract enough customers, or too much competition from too many malls.

One could be less blase about real people losing their savings because they believed the salespeople's pitch.

 

Sometimes the past is better than the <deleted><deleted> we are living through now, and I don't see it getting better for some considerable time to come.

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36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Royal Garden and Mike's were doing a pretty good job of impersonating a mall then. Even the non AC Big C was a "mall" IMO.

 

Not being psychic, I have no idea of what Pattaya will be like once the world returns to something resembling what was before corona, but I've seen what an unsuccessful investment in a mall looks like- it's in Chiang Mai, the Promenada. IMO they took a gamble on upmarket residential construction in that area, but were either too soon, or too wrong.

 

BTW it's not a "game" to the small business owners that rent space in those malls, and go broke when the mall fails to attract enough customers, or too much competition from too many malls.

One could be less blase about real people losing their savings because they believed the salespeople's pitch.

 

Sometimes the past is better than the <deleted><deleted> we are living through now, and I don't see it getting better for some considerable time to come.

Imagine if Central and T21 hadn't been built and Royal Garden and Mikes were still the only malls in the town centre, what a tired and <deleted> retail experience we would have compared to what's on offer these days. 

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6 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Imagine if Central and T21 hadn't been built and Royal Garden and Mikes were still the only malls in the town centre, what a tired and <deleted> retail experience we would have compared to what's on offer these days. 

We were happy enough, but our lives didn't revolve around shopping.

 

Also had Big C, and Tucom, plus hundreds of small businesses and places like Made in Thailand, all of which were waaaaaay more interesting than anything in T21 or Central, or the other barely hanging on malls that populate Pattaya now.

If we just HAD to go to a bigger mall, Bkk was only a bus ride away for a day out.

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11 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Really?  

 

I own a few properties, on three different continents.

 

As for retail, I know what I see, and that's empty shops.

 

I'll take your post as a no response.    

      No response?  Page back up; I've given a number of responses.   But, they've all fallen on deaf ears.  You don't want to hear it.  Example.  Your ludicrous claim that there were closed stores at Central Festival, even before covid, and that means the mall was not doing well.  (Let's ignore your even more ludicrous claim that the only stores getting any foot traffic were the banks and telcos.  Also ignored, the even more preposterous claim that the rest of the foot traffic in the mall was people using Festival as a shortcut to the beach.)

    My response was that stores closing at a mall was normal and one should not automatically see that as the mall failing.  To illustrate my point, I used the example of the Tysons mall in the US, one of the most successful malls with one of the best sales per sq. foot.  Even this very successful mall, I said, had store turnover.  A store would close and, in due time, another would open in its place.  Perfectly normal.  Some business work, some don't--even at a very popular, successful mall.

     Your response?  What is the relevance of a mall in the US?  If you can't see or pretend not to see the relevance, you are either incapable of reason or a troll.  Likely the latter.  It was the same when I tried to explain synergy in the tourist business to you and used Orlando as a very good example.  Your response again?  Orlando is in the US what does that have to do with Thailand.

     Obviously, if that is always going to be your response, what's the point?  By the way, owning a property does not automatically confer on you any knowledge of the real estate business.  I own a car but buying it did not automatically confer on me any knowledge as to how it works and how to fix it.  Same with my tv.  Your statement saying all the thousands of condos for sale are competition for my selling a condo is the best example of your lack of knowledge.  I could explain, and did in a post sometime ago, but it would likely once again fall on deaf ears.  

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4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

We were happy enough, but our lives didn't revolve around shopping.

 

Also had Big C, and Tucom, plus hundreds of small businesses and places like Made in Thailand, all of which were waaaaaay more interesting than anything in T21 or Central, or the other barely hanging on malls that populate Pattaya now.

If we just HAD to go to a bigger mall, Bkk was only a bus ride away for a day out.

I doubt anyone's lives revolve solely around shopping but it's a part of the overall product that's on offer. Like all sectors of Pattaya whether it's hotels, bars, restaurants or shopping there is something for everyone from budget to mainstream to upmarket, nothing is mutually exclusive which is why I think the place is so successful and will no doubt continue to be successful in the future.

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8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Royal Garden and Mike's were doing a pretty good job of impersonating a mall then. Even the non AC Big C was a "mall" IMO.

 

Not being psychic, I have no idea of what Pattaya will be like once the world returns to something resembling what was before corona, but I've seen what an unsuccessful investment in a mall looks like- it's in Chiang Mai, the Promenada. IMO they took a gamble on upmarket residential construction in that area, but were either too soon, or too wrong.

 

BTW it's not a "game" to the small business owners that rent space in those malls, and go broke when the mall fails to attract enough customers, or too much competition from too many malls.

One could be less blase about real people losing their savings because they believed the salespeople's pitch.

 

Sometimes the past is better than the <deleted><deleted> we are living through now, and I don't see it getting better for some considerable time to come.

I'm telling it like it is. Whether I feel empathy or not for small business owners who took a risk and lost is irrelevant. Big business usually destroys small business in the end, not only in Pattaya. Royal Garden, the old Big C and Mike Mall are small town malls. They have been pushed aside by big city malls as Pattaya expanded. I have to say, when I go out shopping, I'm looking for the malls that I enjoy the most with the most shops and they are Central and T21. I don't run my life around trying to support this business or that because they might be doing it tough. Most people think like me in this regard. I do feel sorry for them, though, but that doesn't help much.

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3 hours ago, kinyara said:

I doubt anyone's lives revolve solely around shopping but it's a part of the overall product that's on offer. Like all sectors of Pattaya whether it's hotels, bars, restaurants or shopping there is something for everyone from budget to mainstream to upmarket, nothing is mutually exclusive which is why I think the place is so successful and will no doubt continue to be successful in the future.

I have to confess, since Central and T21 opened, my life has started to revolve around them. Occasionally I will go to Royal Garden and smaller malls, but if I want to buy some electrical goods, or an iPhone, do some banking, get a cover or new SIM for my phone, some cosmetics for the wife, have a nice restaurant meal, grab a coffee, do some grocery shopping etc, I'm going to go to Central and do it all under one roof.

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16 hours ago, newnative said:

It was the same when I tried to explain synergy in the tourist business to you and used Orlando as a very good example.  Your response again?  Orlando is in the US what does that have to do with Thailand.

I think you may have overlooked the point about "is Orlando the biggest brothel in the world" ( or something like that- I don't recall the exact wording ), ( that's not my claim btw- I regard Pattaya as it used to be as the best place for a single guy on the planet ).

While some may wish the reputation would vanish, along with all the bars, it's not going to, IMO.

 

 

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9 hours ago, JensenZ said:

I'm telling it like it is. Whether I feel empathy or not for small business owners who took a risk and lost is irrelevant. Big business usually destroys small business in the end, not only in Pattaya. Royal Garden, the old Big C and Mike Mall are small town malls. They have been pushed aside by big city malls as Pattaya expanded. I have to say, when I go out shopping, I'm looking for the malls that I enjoy the most with the most shops and they are Central and T21. I don't run my life around trying to support this business or that because they might be doing it tough. Most people think like me in this regard. I do feel sorry for them, though, but that doesn't help much.

Development for the sake of development is not a good thing, IMO. Society depends on civility to survive, but if it's only about money, we all suffer as our environment is destroyed in the pursuit of greed. Maya Bay is the perfect example of what happens when greed is permitted by officialdom.

They didn't HAVE to allow Central or T21 to be built, but obviously they were built, and we can either look at them as progress or a blight on the character of Pattaya, depending on our character.

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4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think you may have overlooked the point about "is Orlando the biggest brothel in the world" ( or something like that- I don't recall the exact wording ), ( that's not my claim btw- I regard Pattaya as it used to be as the best place for a single guy on the planet ).

While some may wish the reputation would vanish, along with all the bars, it's not going to, IMO.

 

 

      You're probably right that Pattaya's reputation likely will not 'vanish'.   But, in the 10 years I have been here it has improved quite a bit.  I think it started with Central Festival opening.  Pattaya had reached the point in 2009 that it was no longer a one trick pony and it could support a major mall.

      The great Bangkok flood a few years later brought a lot of Bangkokians to Pattaya to escape the flooding, including many of my Thai partner's relatives, who had not been to Pattaya in ages, if ever.  What they discovered was, hey, Pattaya wasn't so bad.  Nice mall, good seafood restaurants on the beaches.  With the motorway it was an easy 2 hour beach escape from the city.  Wouldn't it be great to have a small, inexpensive, weekend getaway place?

      Lumpini listened and built the massive Lumpini Park Beach, a 3 building 30-story complex of 1800 units in south Jomtien.  Mostly small, affordable units of 28 to 32 sqm, with some larger units thrown in.   Lots of Bangkokians snapped them up.  So, they built two more massive condo projects in Naklua and Wong Amat.  Also successful.  Just for good measure, they added another 2 building highrise project behind Park Beach, Lumpini Seaview.  You'll note that Lumpini hedged its bets by putting its projects quite far in either direction from Walking Street.  Bangkokians wanted Pattaya, but maybe not certain areas, yet.

     Sansiri, SC Asset, Raimon Land, and Supalai took note and soon there were major new projects from those developers scattered all over town.   (Raimon Land had some years earlier taken over and finished Northshore condo.)  Two of the developers, Sansiri and SC Asset, decided that Pattaya had reached the point where they could build right in central Pattaya, with Centric Sea condo daringly close to Soi 6 and The Base not a huge distance from Walking Street.  Both very successful so their bets paid off.  Proximity to the beach and Central Festival trumped Soi 6 and Walking Street being near.   Raimon Land soon followed with Unixx in south Pattaya.

     And, so it's been, with the most recent large new arrival Terminal 21, followed by some nice, new hotels and restaurants in that area.   Every new project makes Pattaya a bit more desirable and its reputation a bit better, with the result being a larger and more diverse visitor demographic, which is healthy.  There's no reason Pattaya can't have both nightlife areas to support those visitors, as well as the more traditional beach entertainments of a beach town.   Aquatique should fit in nicely.

      

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21 hours ago, newnative said:

    You're probably right that Pattaya's reputation likely will not 'vanish'.   But, in the 10 years I have been here it has improved quite a bit.  I think it started with Central Festival opening.  Pattaya had reached the point in 2009 that it was no longer a one trick pony and it could support a major mall.

That's a perfect example of different viewpoints. IMO Pattaya has been ruined by such as Central, and subsequent such developments.

The ghastly monstrosity in front of the lookout, the decrepit marina, the park destroying stupid carpark at Bali Hi, the collapsing promenade, the ruined promenade to the Lighthouse,  the vanishing beach, the broken pavements, the dangerous wiring overhanging said pavements, the scams like the jetskii rip offs, the pedestrian crossing lights that don't work; they all demonstrate IMO that Pattaya is run by people that are not competent.

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43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's a perfect example of different viewpoints. IMO Pattaya has been ruined by such as Central, and subsequent such developments.

The ghastly monstrosity in front of the lookout, the decrepit marina, the park destroying stupid carpark at Bali Hi, the collapsing promenade, the ruined promenade to the Lighthouse,  the vanishing beach, the broken pavements, the dangerous wiring overhanging said pavements, the scams like the jetskii rip offs, the pedestrian crossing lights that don't work; they all demonstrate IMO that Pattaya is run by people that are not competent.

It's a City where hundreds of millions of baht in state funds gets ploughed in annually yet nothing of long lasting quality ever gets built. I think we all know what organisation pioneered that business model. 

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1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's a perfect example of different viewpoints. IMO Pattaya has been ruined by such as Central, and subsequent such developments.

The ghastly monstrosity in front of the lookout, the decrepit marina, the park destroying stupid carpark at Bali Hi, the collapsing promenade, the ruined promenade to the Lighthouse,  the vanishing beach, the broken pavements, the dangerous wiring overhanging said pavements, the scams like the jetskii rip offs, the pedestrian crossing lights that don't work; they all demonstrate IMO that Pattaya is run by people that are not competent.

They might not be competent but you can rest assured they are very rich......now!!

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1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's a perfect example of different viewpoints. IMO Pattaya has been ruined by such as Central, and subsequent such developments.

The ghastly monstrosity in front of the lookout, the decrepit marina, the park destroying stupid carpark at Bali Hi, the collapsing promenade, the ruined promenade to the Lighthouse,  the vanishing beach, the broken pavements, the dangerous wiring overhanging said pavements, the scams like the jetskii rip offs, the pedestrian crossing lights that don't work; they all demonstrate IMO that Pattaya is run by people that are not competent.

    Well. actually you, yourself, seem to be offering two 'different viewpoints'.  You've said in other posts that Pattaya is a dump.  So, if that's the case, how can it be 'ruined' by something new like Central Festival?   It's already a dump in your eyes.  And, since you think Pattaya is a dump, why would you be so opposed to new developments, such as Aquatique, that might move it up a few notches from your dump status?   I do agree the marina area needs work. 

     The city is doing a few things.  Pattaya Beach has been widened and is being kept clean; Jomtien Beach is now being widened and it will also be much better.  Some of the overhead wires are starting to be buried, a slow process, I will admit.  Some sidewalks are being worked on, also slowly.  Overhead wires and bad sidewalks, however, can be found all over Thailand so I'm not sure it's fair to use them to confer dump status. 

    The pedestrian lights on Beach Road are working, as well as those on North Pattaya Road--stopped at one the other day.  The very large public-private partnership car park is about done in north Pattaya, an area that is getting very popular.  A lot of roadwork is being done around town, and has been for several years.  Still lots to be done--again true for most places in Thailand--but I do see improvement.

    I think anyone who would look at Central Festival and see it as something that has 'ruined' Pattaya is one who doesn't want any change of any kind; rather, they want Pattaya to stay static, to remain what it was in, I suppose, the 80s and 90s.  As I said in an earlier post, that ship sailed long ago and there is no going back to then.     

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On 11/26/2021 at 5:51 PM, Peterw42 said:

OK, I'll bite.

What is "an aquarium-cum-zoo" 

In Thailand,  my thoughts are it is a place where animals suffer

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On 12/7/2021 at 2:54 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Development for the sake of development is not a good thing, IMO. Society depends on civility to survive, but if it's only about money, we all suffer as our environment is destroyed in the pursuit of greed. Maya Bay is the perfect example of what happens when greed is permitted by officialdom.

They didn't HAVE to allow Central or T21 to be built, but obviously they were built, and we can either look at them as progress or a blight on the character of Pattaya, depending on our character.

T21 and Central were not "development for the sake of development". They were a very beneficial addition to Pattaya, and although the foreign tourists are still absent, it brings a lot of day and weekend Thai tourists from Bangkok and other areas... who do appreciate a large air conditioned shopping/restaurant environment. Who doesn't? Only some expats living in the past and missing the old Fishing Village vibe of decades past.

 

Could you please explain what "development for the sake of development" is. No one invests a huge sum of money (billions of baht) on something they know will fail. Failure is part of speculation, but know one plans on it. These investors with money to spend became rich by investing wisely, but they also know it's never a sure thing. No one has a reliable crystal ball they can use to predict the future. Who would have predicted the world would be in lockdown for nearly 2 years?.. and that Thailand would have no International tourists for nearly 2 years and counting.

 

Suggesting the "officials" should step in to stop these huge developments is ridiculous. They are the main cheer leaders, as am I.

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22 hours ago, newnative said:

Well. actually you, yourself, seem to be offering two 'different viewpoints'.  You've said in other posts that Pattaya is a dump.  So, if that's the case, how can it be 'ruined' by something new like Central Festival? 

Over the many years I've been posting on this forum, I've referred to Pattaya as a dump, and celebrated it's "dumpness" as that kept the families and single western women away. Pattaya may have been a dump, but it was a fun place for single western guys like me. Going upmarket attracts families and single western women, and they cause pressure to stop Pattaya being a fun place and become just another overbuilt concrete <deleted> like any other city in Thailand. Anyone been to Hua Hin or Chiang Mai knows what I'm talking about.

 

Sooooo, it's families and single western women that will ruin Pattaya, not it being a dump.

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9 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Could you please explain what "development for the sake of development" is.

Easy. It's building something that isn't needed so some people can make loadsacash. Pattaya was just fine, and didn't NEED Central or T21, and it certainly doesn't NEED this latest get rich scheme. If it works it just causes more sewage and more traffic jams, but it won't add anything to make Pattaya more fun, unless spending money makes one happy. However, it will make a few people very rich.

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9 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Suggesting the "officials" should step in to stop these huge developments is ridiculous. They are the main cheer leaders, as am I.

Well, I've never suggested that as I am fully aware that such people will be getting very, very rich, whether the projects succeed or fail. If they cared about Pattaya as a place to live in rather than to make money, they'd fix the pavements, and stop the scams. They don't do either, so that supports my case.

I wonder why you want to fundamentally change the character of Pattaya, as no one is forcing you to live there. Plenty of boring coastal places to live in LOS if one doesn't like men having fun.

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22 hours ago, newnative said:

I think anyone who would look at Central Festival and see it as something that has 'ruined' Pattaya is one who doesn't want any change of any kind; rather, they want Pattaya to stay static, to remain what it was in, I suppose, the 80s and 90s. 

Yes, I and probably millions of western men want Pattaya to remain what it was in the 90s.

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