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Pattaya to get huge new beachside development


Jonathan Fairfield
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1 hour ago, champers said:

There was no old or quaint stuff where this development is going to be. The land was primarily used as a car and tourist bus parking lot. There were some restaurants at the Beach Rd and 2nd Rd entrances/exits along with a few market stalls for beachwear.

Pattaya as a tourist destination is less than 60 years old so there isn't any cultural heritage here to destroy. The only ancient relics from a bygone era are the mamasans in the beerbars.

Sorry, I was thinking of BKK.  I never went to Pattaya in 1977-1978.  I did spend a week in a meditation place in Chonburi which was cool. If one doesn't mind sitting alone in a hut...  I didn't.  😑

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7 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

This is only for 2 days / nights.  

 

Even if Pattaya hosted big events every weekend, post covid, for the Bangkok Thai's, that only makes Pattaya busy for 96 days out of 365 days in the year.  Does that pay the bills?  

 

 

Once again, events would have to be held every weekend, and even then, does being busy 8 nights of a month even cover staff salaries?

 

Who pays to host the events?  Can city hall afford to keep hosting?  Do they even care?

 

 

Did you see any of the people attending the fireworks show actually buy anything from a shop in T21?

 

The beach restoration is free for these domestic tourists. 

 

Are there enough domestic tourists to see that most hotels, guest houses etc survive?  As you said, "all the nice new hotels that have been built - large and small."  What about the older established hotels?  What about their investment?  

 

This is my point.  Build a nice new hotel, no matter how big, or how small, and it comes at a cost to smaller, or larger, older hotels, because there is just not enough tourists, domestic and / or international, to fill them all, and, they keep building more.  

 

So whilst you see lights on in the hotels you mention, would you care to comment on all the hotels where you didn't see lights on, or do they not count?  Do you have any sympathetic words for those business owners?  What will become of those businesses and buildings?  

 

As for Pattaya being an attractive destination for many, look at the beach and the ocean water.  Hardly attractive, is it?  Pattaya is famous for its adult nightlife.  The fact that they mislead Chinese and Russians that it is a tropical paradise is another conversation.

 

 

Ok, but at what cost to established buildings / businesses?

 

One big new shiny building / business is built, which sends 10 other buildings and their businesses broke, do yo say Pattaya is booming? 

 

What about the vacant buildings this will cause?  Hardly an appearance of a thriving Pattaya economy. 

 

 

Once again, weekends of domestic tourism does not make a tourist industry.

 

It is "perhaps" or is it "benefit of other businesses?" 

 

Question:  In your opinion, just how many condo's, malls, hotels etc is the right amount for them all to survive here?  Do you think the saturation point has been reached, is near, or is nowhere near?     

 

I think back to the 2019 high season, and all was not well here.  Post covid, why would it be any different?  

       You brushed off my main point, that Pattaya has now become attractive enough that it can attract large numbers of domestic tourists--that will come and book rooms at the hotels, eat at the restaurants, shop at the shops, etc.  The fireworks are over but this morning there's a fair number of people on the beach--and it's only 7:30 as I type this.  That's a plus for Pattaya.

       Of course domestic tourists and weekend tourists and special events will never be enough to sustain Pattaya's now large tourist infrastructure.  Everyone knows that.  T21--just one example--was built to handle large numbers of tourists--both domestic and international--plus locals.   Pattaya needs the international tourists back.  But, domestic tourists visiting is encouraging.

      I think back to 2019 and things were going pretty well here.  Some businesses, of course, were not doing well--that's always the case anywhere--but overall the economy was good.  Which brings me to your point that new businesses shouldn't open because older businesses already here might suffer.   Sorry, that's not how it works.  And, thank goodness for that or we'd all be still riding horses rather than driving cars. 

     Like it or not, you have supply and demand and build a better mousetrap at play.  Is the supply of western bars too great for the current demand?  If so, some may fail.   If a better hotel opens next to a rundown, old relic, it might succeed and the older hotel fail.   Or, it might attract new customers to that particular area and some might stay at the older hotel.   Either way, that's just reality.

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On 11/26/2021 at 5:40 PM, HappyExpat57 said:

Anyone who knows anything about Pattaya waters understands what utter nonsense this is. The WORST kind of misleading advertisement.

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Geez. I was just about ready to buy some snorkeling gear and gaze at the tropical fish. 

 

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18 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Probably should sell now if you live in Centric Sea your views will be blocked.

lol.....Agreed.....I am not sure if Centric Sea building A or B would be taking the view hit but the expensive upper floors  will be getting a whole lot cheaper...

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28 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Another huge vote of confidence in the long-term future of Pattaya post-covid, by a group who will know more than most about the bigger picture regarding the government's Eastern Seaboard and Pattaya's future development plans and direction. 

 

Vacant derelict prime site eyesore or brand new upscale development increasing the city's appeal to new tourists and offering us residents new options, the proverbial no-brainer.

 

 

Post Covid you say?........Well IF there is a Post Covid you might be right......But there seem to be quite a few Dark Suits who don't want there to be a Post Covid EVER....And in this case....This development will be a monumental failure...It needs loads and loads of REAL tourist to be successful.....

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6 hours ago, kinyara said:

Another huge vote of confidence in the long-term future of Pattaya post-covid, by a group who will know more than most about the bigger picture regarding the government's Eastern Seaboard and Pattaya's future development plans and direction. 

 

Vacant derelict prime site eyesore or brand new upscale development increasing the city's appeal to new tourists and offering us residents new options, the proverbial no-brainer.

 

 

IMHO mostly money laundering operations.

They still need to launder their money, customers for the project or not.

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5 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Probably should sell now if you live in Centric Sea your views will be blocked.

       I think it depends on what happens with Grand Sole Hotel and the land just to the north of the hotel.  Grand Sole is apparently going to be 'redone' and 'rebranded' according to an article I read.  'Redone' is quite vague--could mean anything.   If the current building is kept and stays the same height, upper floors in the A Building at Centric shouldn't lose much view.  Centric sits back far enough from the beach that construction of Aquatique closer to the beach wouldn't totally block the view.  See the photo attached of a 33rd floor condo we owned there in Building A.  You would still have some seaview and coastline view.

      If Grand Sole is redone to 50 stories, that would be another matter since it is right in front of Building A.   I have no idea how high they would be allowed to build.  Ditto for the large tract of land north of the hotel.  That would likely have more of an impact on Building B.  It will be interesting to see how it all develops.  

P_20170217_101857_vHDR_On.jpg

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9 hours ago, newnative said:

You brushed off my main point, that Pattaya has now become attractive enough that it can attract large numbers of domestic tourists--that will come and book rooms at the hotels, eat at the restaurants, shop at the shops, etc. 

 

I didn't brush off your opinion.  I am happy to listen to all points of view.

 

You say "has now become attractive enough" but what has changed here to become attractive to domestic tourists?  Where were they in 2019, pre covid?  

 

Is it possible it's the same old Pattaya, but they have have had some "attractive" events, and prices, over the last few weeks?  Will they stop coming to Pattaya when the tourists come back?  

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

The fireworks are over but this morning there's a fair number of people on the beach--and it's only 7:30 as I type this.  That's a plus for Pattaya.

 

I only see it as a plus if they spend here.  The beach is free.

 

It's not uncommon for Thai's to do a day trip to Pattaya Beach, and bring their own.  What does the Pattaya economy see out of these day trippers?  

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

Of course domestic tourists and weekend tourists and special events will never be enough to sustain Pattaya's now large tourist infrastructure.  Everyone knows that.  T21--just one example--was built to handle large numbers of tourists--both domestic and international--plus locals.   Pattaya needs the international tourists back.  But, domestic tourists visiting is encouraging.

 

This is my point, newative.

 

Using your example of T21, what if 10 new malls are built in the next few years?  What would that do to T21?  

 

In your opinion, how many malls can Pattaya, with both domestic and international tourism, support?  Do you think T21 took some customers off Central?  Look what's happened to The Avenue. 

 

Now, apply the same "pie slices" theory across all other businesses here and surely there is a point of saturation where they basically all don't make money because there are just too many businesses offering the same products / services.  Just look at the condo properties here, even pre covid, and they keep building more.

 

I know what you are getting at, survival of the fittest, but what about all the vacant buildings a very large development could create, should they basically have a monopoly?

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

I think back to 2019 and things were going pretty well here. 

 

Really?  Who was doing well?

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

Which brings me to your point that new businesses shouldn't open because older businesses already here might suffer.   Sorry, that's not how it works.  And, thank goodness for that or we'd all be still riding horses rather than driving cars. 

 

That is not my point.

 

Your point is this development is a good investment.

 

My point is that it very well may be a good investment, but it means other investors may lose their money. 

 

It's not about stopping progress, more a warning to investors that tourism, property, retail, hospitality etc businesses are operating in an extremely volatile market here, thus, making them very risky investments.  Certainly, no proper town planning doesn't help the situation.    

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

 Like it or not, you have supply and demand and build a better mousetrap at play.  Is the supply of western bars too great for the current demand? 

 

Well, covid has wiped the majority of them out, but looking back at high season 2019, the bars were not busy. 

 

10 hours ago, newnative said:

 If a better hotel opens next to a rundown, old relic, it might succeed and the older hotel fail.   Or, it might attract new customers to that particular area and some might stay at the older hotel.   Either way, that's just reality.

 

Sure, i agree, but we are not talking about rundown old relics.  Is Central old and run down?  Yet, they build T21.  Bad luck for the investors in Central, I suppose.  Just as it will be bad luck for the investors in T21, when this gets built.  

 

Say this new development puts Central and T21 out of business.  Never mind the investors who lose out, that's the gamble you take, but that's two relatively new malls that are deserted.  Not a great look for Pattaya, and what becomes of all the empty shops inside, and the building itself, it just slips into disrepair.  

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9 hours ago, kinyara said:

Vacant derelict prime site eyesore or brand new upscale development increasing the city's appeal to new tourists and offering us residents new options, the proverbial no-brainer.

 

Sure, but as mentioned in another post, is it possible a development like this actually creates more derelict prime site eyesores around Central Pattaya, as it puts many other places out of business?  

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9 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Probably should sell now if you live in Centric Sea your views will be blocked.

 

Exactly my point.

 

That's how quick a good investment can become worthless here.  

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9 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Post Covid you say?........Well IF there is a Post Covid you might be right......But there seem to be quite a few Dark Suits who don't want there to be a Post Covid EVER....And in this case....This development will be a monumental failure...It needs loads and loads of REAL tourist to be successful.....

 

Or a casino.  

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11 minutes ago, bang saen guy said:

Tough to pass. Gambling dens are a huge moneymaker for the BiB. They are everywhere

 

Easy to pass.  

 

Implement Vietnam's policy of foreigners only, and Vietnamese who can prove they earn over something like $450USD a month, but basically, it's foreigners only allowed in the casino.  

 

The BiB still get their cut from either operating or allowing underground casinos, and Thailand rakes in billions of dollars, not baht, dollars, from foreign gamblers, the majority I suspect will be Chinese.    

 

Yes, it's rocket science.  🙂

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On 11/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Fairfield said:

The poster said that the whole world was coming to Pattaya with this development. 

I like the old slogan better; "The whole world is cumming in Pattaya"

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11 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

I didn't brush off your opinion.  I am happy to listen to all points of view.

 

You say "has now become attractive enough" but what has changed here to become attractive to domestic tourists?  Where were they in 2019, pre covid?  

 

Is it possible it's the same old Pattaya, but they have have had some "attractive" events, and prices, over the last few weeks?  Will they stop coming to Pattaya when the tourists come back?  

 

 

I only see it as a plus if they spend here.  The beach is free.

 

It's not uncommon for Thai's to do a day trip to Pattaya Beach, and bring their own.  What does the Pattaya economy see out of these day trippers?  

 

 

This is my point, newative.

 

Using your example of T21, what if 10 new malls are built in the next few years?  What would that do to T21?  

 

In your opinion, how many malls can Pattaya, with both domestic and international tourism, support?  Do you think T21 took some customers off Central?  Look what's happened to The Avenue. 

 

Now, apply the same "pie slices" theory across all other businesses here and surely there is a point of saturation where they basically all don't make money because there are just too many businesses offering the same products / services.  Just look at the condo properties here, even pre covid, and they keep building more.

 

I know what you are getting at, survival of the fittest, but what about all the vacant buildings a very large development could create, should they basically have a monopoly?

 

 

Really?  Who was doing well?

 

 

That is not my point.

 

Your point is this development is a good investment.

 

My point is that it very well may be a good investment, but it means other investors may lose their money. 

 

It's not about stopping progress, more a warning to investors that tourism, property, retail, hospitality etc businesses are operating in an extremely volatile market here, thus, making them very risky investments.  Certainly, no proper town planning doesn't help the situation.    

 

 

Well, covid has wiped the majority of them out, but looking back at high season 2019, the bars were not busy. 

 

 

Sure, i agree, but we are not talking about rundown old relics.  Is Central old and run down?  Yet, they build T21.  Bad luck for the investors in Central, I suppose.  Just as it will be bad luck for the investors in T21, when this gets built.  

 

Say this new development puts Central and T21 out of business.  Never mind the investors who lose out, that's the gamble you take, but that's two relatively new malls that are deserted.  Not a great look for Pattaya, and what becomes of all the empty shops inside, and the building itself, it just slips into disrepair.  

   Central Festival and T21 were both doing well, pre-covid.  When T21 opened my partner and I could finally start going back to Festival on weekends--before it had become just too crowded and parking was awful.  Yes, some bars weren't doing well--victims of Pattaya's changing tourism demographics.  Sad, but that's business.  Domestic tourists were coming in 2019, by the way; they are now just more noticeable.   

    Sorry, supply and demand and build a better mousetrap still apply.  If some poorly designed, poorly managed malls like Avenue fall by the wayside, again sad but that's how it is.   Should we say no to T21 or Central Festival being built to protect a struggling Avenue?   I don't think so.  Investors invest knowing there is always risk.   The retail business is always evolving.  If Avenue can't make it as a shopping center, at some point it may close or be repurposed to something else.   Or torn down and something else more suitable  built--the land is valuable.  

     None of this is unique to Pattaya.  I used to live in northern Virginia and one of the biggest malls in the country at that time was Tysons Corner Center.  Huge--and it expanded several times.  That didn't stop a large new mall from being built literally right across the street.  Before on-line shopping there might have been enough business for both.  But now?  Likely some repurposing going on--although I haven't been back in years.   Am I losing any sleep over how the investors in both malls are doing?  No.

     Here's a thought.  Why not, for a week, be a glass half-full guy?  Instead of always seeing only the negative, maybe look for the positive in things for a week.  Usually there is some positive to be found.   For example, T21.

     You apparently see T21 as a negative.  Something new opening maybe puts something already here, like Avenue, at risk.   How about the positives, instead?  T21 opening was clearly the spur for a great deal of good, new development in that area--which continues today.  Nice, new hotels like Ozo opened.  Amari expanded.  Tiffany's expanded. New restaurants on adjacent streets opened.  Grande Centre Point succeeded and now GCP 2 is being built.  Some new projects also on the northern part of Third Road--I remember visiting one that boasted how close it was to T21.  Tired, old Central Center got a wake up call and morphed into Marina.  Yes, likely a few marginal businesses closed.  But hundreds of new jobs were created and lots of new businesses opened.  Easily a net positive.

     You fret that this new Aquatique development might put T21 and Festival, in your words, 'out of business'.  Never mind that it's not really another mall.  It's a mixed-use project--with primarily hotels, residential, and entertainment.  Like T21, I think the opposite will happen.  Instead of harming other businesses in the area, it will likely draw in more tourists and be a net positive.  

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19 minutes ago, newnative said:

 Central Festival and T21 were both doing well, pre-covid. 

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

There were threads, with some even posting photos of closed shops inside the mall, back then.  

 

My thoughts back then were if it was not for the telco's and banks, and the shortcut to Beach Road, there was very little pedestrian traffic in Central, pre covid.

 

24 minutes ago, newnative said:

Should we say no to T21 or Central Festival being built to protect a struggling Avenue?  

 

No, but one should not suggest investing in Pattaya is a good idea, because tomorrow 10 new hotels can be built, for example, and one may be in the hotel game.

 

Another example is The Base.  Investors bought a condo there, only to see it become a short stay hotel for Chinese.  Good luck selling for the price you bought in at.  That's how quick an investment can be lost here.    

 

27 minutes ago, newnative said:

Here's a thought.  Why not, for a week, be a glass half-full guy?  Instead of always seeing only the negative, maybe look for the positive in things for a week.  Usually there is some positive to be found.   For example, T21.

 

There's no need to get personal.  I am a positive person, I just don't see the positives in investing in Pattaya / Thailand.  

 

I find your example somewhat strange.  With the announcement of this new development,  how "positive" do you think the investors of T21 are right now?   Doesn't this development lower the value of T21? 

 

32 minutes ago, newnative said:

You apparently see T21 as a negative.  Something new opening maybe puts something already here, like Avenue, at risk.   How about the positives, instead?  T21 opening was clearly the spur for a great deal of good, new development in that area--which continues today.  Nice, new hotels like Ozo opened.  Amari expanded.  Tiffany's expanded. New restaurants on adjacent streets opened.  Grande Centre Point succeeded and now GCP 2 is being built.  Some new projects also on the northern part of Third Road-

 

So, are you a firm believer in, "build it and the people will come?" 

 

What if everyone builds? 

 

35 minutes ago, newnative said:

You fret that this new Aquatique development might put T21 and Festival, in your words, 'out of business'.  Never mind that it's not really another mall.  It's a mixed-use project--with primarily hotels, residential, and entertainment.  Like T21, I think the opposite will happen.  Instead of harming other businesses in the area, it will likely draw in more tourists and be a net positive.  

 

Well, I certainly don't fret.  I have nothing here I can't leave behind and go to the airport within hours.  That is by design.  It's an interesting subject, but I have no skin in the game.

 

I see your point.  You re suggesting that this development is basically a tourist attraction, and will attract people into Pattaya.  The thing is, with bars, restaurants, accommodation, retail, nightclub, salons, massage, etc etc all in house, does it not take customers away from Central and T21, and small businesses like massage, for example?  Will tourists even leave this development to step outside into 3rd World infrastructure?  

 

Where we seem to have a communication break down is, you are saying this development is good for Pattaya, and I agree, it is, for all the reasons you say. 

 

Where I disagree is you say this "investment" is good for Pattaya, and I ask, good for who?  Certainly not the investors in Central, T21 etc for example. 

 

Yes, it's new investment in Pattaya, but it means past investors lose out.  Did they make more investment decisions?  Or, are they the victim of overdevelopment and lack of town planning? 

 

Do I care, no, but I simply suggest that there are not enough tourists coming here, and their demographic, to support ALL recent investments here, and they are still building more.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Sure, but as mentioned in another post, is it possible a development like this actually creates more derelict prime site eyesores around Central Pattaya, as it puts many other places out of business?  

Not for me, I see new investment as an overall positive, improving and upgrading the existing product offering, attracting more custom which in turn generates more money flowing around and  attracts additional investment. I'd be more concerned if the large Thai conglomerates like Chang and Central etc didn't see Pattaya as investable in the long-term.   

 

 

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5 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Not for me, I see new investment as an overall positive, improving and upgrading the existing product offering, attracting more custom which in turn generates more money flowing around and  attracts additional investment. I'd be more concerned if the large Thai conglomerates like Chang and Central etc didn't see Pattaya as investable in the long-term.   

 

 

 

You don't think a development like this has the potential to put many surrounding businesses out of business, or do you think there will be enough tourists to support all the businesses here, once this is built?  

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43 minutes ago, newnative said:

...      None of this is unique to Pattaya.  I used to live in northern Virginia and one of the biggest malls in the country at that time was Tysons Corner Center.  Huge--and it expanded several times.  That didn't stop a large new mall from being built literally right across the street.  ...

I worked on the grounds crew at Tysons one summer.  Across the street was a couple hundred acres of nothing.  We rode motorcycles in the abandoned gravel pit there, right where they eventually built Tysons II. We used to drag race on the Dulles access road. I can't even find my way around No VA anymore. But they do dump a bunch of money into infrastructure and Tysons is supposedly the 12th largest employment center in the United States. 

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On 11/27/2021 at 11:34 AM, khunPer said:

It's an amazing Singapore inspired tower project, but is that what quality family tourists are heading to a paradise beach in Land Of Smiles for...🤔

 

In my honest opinion I would rather think that a Bounty-style beach with endless rows of coconut palms and low beachfront resorts buildings facing the beach would be more of a quality tourist family's dream of paradise...🙂

 

w-retreat-koh-samui_2-.jpg

That's what Koh Chang sort of looked like... before greed destroyed it.

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50 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

You don't think a development like this has the potential to put many surrounding businesses out of business, or do you think there will be enough tourists to support all the businesses here, once this is built?  

I think long-term tourists numbers and overall spend will continue to rise. The development will likely differentiate itself naturally in terms of its location, quality and selection of outlets/facilities on offer.  

 

I can't visualise in my head what businesses are surrounding it, have you got anything/anywhere specific in mind ?  

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The Field of Dreams syndrome. Build it, and they will come. 

 

Talk about dreaming. Not only are they expecting tourists to return, they are expecting wealthy tourists to start flocking to Thailand. Utter delusion. There are at least a dozen good reasons why Thailand only gets 100 or less very wealthy tourists a year. Sheer hubris and vanity. 

 

Phiphat (and Prayuth) you have made history. 40 or 50 years from now, in the hospitality industry classes at the university level, they will still be teaching about you fools, as the men who presided over the once great industry of tourism, the men who helped destroy the industry millions depended upon. They will talk about you when the students are visiting the hollowed out shells, of once formerly great hotels, as the creeps who helped precipitate the demise and decline of Thailand, from the tiger of SE Asia (and at one time the 21st largest economy in the world) to a whiny, sickly, skinny, disease infested alley cat, 89th in the world in GDP, on it's last legs. And on par with Burundi, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Yemen, and Sierra Leone.

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On 11/27/2021 at 2:06 AM, redwood1 said:

Guys you should click this link.......Very interesting.....That new development in Chinatown looks like the perfect weapon to DESTROY Chinatowns  uniqueness and character, which may also be the plan for Pattaya...

From the news release:

Quote

It will feature two hotels, residences and a retail mall, including a 24-hour food centre on Charoen Krung Road.

While this project is being promoted as "in Chinatown", it is actually quite separate from the location most people would consider Chinatown, and the location that you would consider having the "uniqueness and character" of Chinatown. So, I doubt there is any real danger of it "destroying" Chinatown. It would be somewhat counterproductive to build a hotel hoping to capitalize on the very thing your hotel plans to destroy.

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1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

The Field of Dreams syndrome. Build it, and they will come. 

 

Talk about dreaming. Not only are they expecting tourists to return, they are expecting wealthy tourists to start flocking to Thailand. Utter delusion. There are at least a dozen good reasons why Thailand only gets 100 or less very wealthy tourists a year. Sheer hubris and vanity. 

 

Phiphat (and Prayuth) you have made history. 40 or 50 years from now, in the hospitality industry classes at the university level, they will still be teaching about you fools, as the men who presided over the once great industry of tourism, the men who helped destroy the industry millions depended upon. They will talk about you when the students are visiting the hollowed out shells, of once formerly great hotels, as the creeps who helped precipitate the demise and decline of Thailand, from the tiger of SE Asia (and at one time the 21st largest economy in the world) to a whiny, sickly, skinny, disease infested alley cat, 89th in the world in GDP, on it's last legs. And on par with Burundi, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Yemen, and Sierra Leone.

Too true. A blight on the land

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