ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

A new Camry starts at ~950K with a 2.5-liter DOHC-I4

And quite the under performer compared to the new Nio.

 

You get what you pay for .....  along with never having to pay for petrol, oil changes, tune ups.

 

I personally wouldn't buy either, but you can't compare entry level ICEVs to some of the newer EVs.  They are way out spec'd.

Edited December 13, 2023 by KhunLA

[Pib]

Chinese EV manufacturers (which dominate in Thailand) are kicking the butt of EU and US EV manufacturers.  EU/US EV manufacturers are having a hard time in producing competitively priced EV that customers want to buy.   Makes it less desirable for EU/US customers to transition to EV; instead, just stay with ICEV.   Can't really blame EU/US vehicle buyers as a whole in not aggressively jumping on the EV bandwagon.

 

The full article at the weblink below...some partial quotes are included below.   EU/US EV manufacturers just don't have their act together when it comes to making EVs (with the exception of Tesla).

 

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1246109-ice-vs-ev-the-debate-thread/page/41/#comment-18549932

 

Quote

 

China’s electric vehicles (EV) are getting cheaper, while the reverse is happening in Europe and the U.S., according to a report from auto industry consultants JATO Dynamics.

 

JATO Dynamics said Chinese EV-makers continue to accelerate ahead of their Western counterparts in their ability to make competitively priced vehicles.

 

 

“The price gap has widened, with the average retail price of an electric car available in China now less than half the price seen in both Europe and the USA. In the first half of 2023, and electric car cost €31,165 ($33,000) in China, €66,864 ($70,700) in Europe, and €68,023 ($72,000) in the U.S.,” JATO said.

 

“Despite efforts by Western (manufacturers) to produce more affordable EVs, these models continue to cost more than their gasoline and diesel equivalents. Today, consumers would need to spend €18,285 ($19,500) and €24,400 ($25,800) to buy an EV in Europe and the U.S., respectively – this is 92% and 146% more than they would need to pay for the cheapest combustion car available. In comparison, in China the cheapest electric vehicle costs 8% less than the cheapest ICE (internal combustion engine) equivalent,” JATO said.

 

Meanwhile Western wannabe competitors are conceding defeat and going back to the drawing board.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Chinese EV manufacturers (which dominate in Thailand) are kicking the butt of EU and US EV manufacturers.  EU/US EV manufacturers are having a hard time in producing competitively priced EV that customers want to buy.   Makes it less desirable for EU/US customers to transition to EV; instead, just stay with ICEV.   Can't really blame EU/US vehicle buyers as a whole in not aggressively jumping on the EV bandwagon.

 

The full article at the weblink below...some partial quotes are included below.   EU/US EV manufacturers just don't have their act together when it comes to making EVs (with the exception of Tesla).

 

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1246109-ice-vs-ev-the-debate-thread/page/41/#comment-18549932

 

 

 

Petrol and diesel powered vehicles have hit the lowest possible prices as they have been in production for decades. There is no where else for car makers to reduce the prices. EVs are relatively speaking, newer technology and the biggest price component is apparently the battery pack. As stated by @KhunLA, the price of batteries will continue to drop. I expect that in the next few years, EVs will be like for like, cheaper than ICEVs. 
 

Pretty soon, most households will own an EV, possibly alongside an ICEV for those occasional long distance trips. Sadly though, for condo dwellers, charging will be an inconvenience, much like having to pay 8-10 baht per unit of electricity when those living in landed properties only pay 5 baht. It is what it is

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gweiloman

[KhunLA]

They took a LFP battery from -45C water tank to a 1000C fire, and then placed it in a car ... 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:07 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

Flawed logic.

 

You don't look at an exponential curve and say it's about to plateau, that's fiction.

 

IMHO, when the subsidies disappear, the prices will remain the same, I wouldn't rule out a drop in price next year too.

OK, so in ur expert opinion what is the EV saturation percent point in Thailand?

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

OK, so in ur expert opinion what is the EV saturation percent point in Thailand?

 

 

I have no idea, I also know it's impossible to predict when a graph that is still exponential will plateau, it is showing no signs of slowing down, quite the opposite, demand for EV's is increasing. Until we see a slowdown, it's impossible to predict a saturation point.

[ExpatOilWorker]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

I have no idea, I also know it's impossible to predict when a graph that is still exponential will plateau, it is showing no signs of slowing down, quite the opposite, demand for EV's is increasing. Until we see a slowdown, it's impossible to predict a saturation point.

That is a weak answer, all you have to do is pick a number between 0 and 100%.

Values above 100% will will only be accepted when EV dealers go so desperate they offer 2 for 1 deals!!

[JBChiangRai]

25 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

That is a weak answer, all you have to do is pick a number between 0 and 100%.

Values above 100% will will only be accepted when EV dealers go so desperate they offer 2 for 1 deals!!

 

If you want an opinion, I'm happy to give you my opinion, but first define what you mean by saturation point

[ExpatOilWorker]

38 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

If you want an opinion, I'm happy to give you my opinion, but first define what you mean by saturation point

EV sales as percentage of total vehicles registration once your exponential curve flattens out. This might happen slowly, so let's say when EV sales stabilize withing a 5% range over a 6 month period. 

Pib is the man with the numbers, but I believe 16-17% is the latest numbers from October, 2023.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, ExpatOilWorker said:

EV sales as percentage of total vehicles registration once your exponential curve flattens out. This might happen slowly, so let's say when EV sales stabilize withing a 5% range over a 6 month period. 

Pib is the man with the numbers, but I believe 16-17% is the latest numbers from Ocrober, 2023.

 

I think the percentage will continue to climb to around 90%, the other 10% will be Hydrogen vehicles, that peak will be reached in about 70 years.

 

The current growth will taper off and it will be different country by country.  I think Thailand will taper off in about 2-3 years, but EV percentage of whole will still increase.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think the percentage will continue to climb to around 90%, the other 10% will be Hydrogen vehicles, that peak will be reached in about 70 years.

I thought climate change was going to kill us in 10 years ........ are you a climate denier?

[JBChiangRai]

32 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I thought climate change was going to kill us in 10 years ........ are you a climate denier?

 

No I'm not a climate denier, quite the opposite and I do believe humans will be extinct or living underground in 200 years

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I thought climate change was going to kill us in 10 years ........ are you a climate denier?

in 10 yrs ... I thought the end was suppose to be happening already.   Was expecting Philly to be beachfront, with the caps melting (almost 10 yrs overdue ... oops), and New Jersey, USA would be underwater.

 

But then again, all those elites telling us to change our ways, for climate change, rising seas, all seem to be buying and living in beachfront properties ... hmm.

[ExpatOilWorker]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think the percentage will continue to climb to around 90%, the other 10% will be Hydrogen vehicles, that peak will be reached in about 70 years.

 

The current growth will taper off and it will be different country by country.  I think Thailand will taper off in about 2-3 years, but EV percentage of whole will still increase.

Fair enough, just to give you some wiggle room let's call it 80-90% EV saturation.

EV saturation as percentage of sales:

JBCR = 80-90%

EOW = 20-30%

 

I expect the honeymoon period to blow over in a few years and I don't think either of us need to worry much about what will happen 70 years from now.

 

[KhunLA]

PEA power outage tomorrow, all 'day', guessing running a new transformer for the building lots, someone started construction on down the road a bit.  Maybe 2 days if not finished.

 

If not having solar, could plug into the EV, w/E-MB still available for transport, if was needed.  Freezers/frigs are full up most of the time ... prepped for the zombie apocalypse.

 

Where's the outlet on the ICEVs ?  

 

[Gweiloman]

20 hours ago, KhunLA said:

PEA power outage tomorrow, all 'day', guessing running a new transformer for the building lots, someone started construction on down the road a bit.  Maybe 2 days if not finished.

 

If not having solar, could plug into the EV, w/E-MB still available for transport, if was needed.  Freezers/frigs are full up most of the time ... prepped for the zombie apocalypse.

 

Where's the outlet on the ICEVs ?  

 

Unfortunately, my solar installation is grid tied so if there’s a power outage from PEA, my solar won’t be of help. But at least my 60 kWh battery can keep my fridge/freezers, internet, TVs, fans operating.

[GroveHillWanderer]

Another article about Nio/WeLion's solid state EV batteries being available in volume soon. As it mentions, such batteries are safer, charge faster and drive farther.

 

Quote

Earlier this week, NIO founder, chairman, and CEO William Li took an ET7 equipped with WeLion’s solid-state batteries out for a range test and successfully drove 1,044 km (650 miles) with 3% battery remaining.

 

WeLion reportedly expects to send NIO 150 kWh solid-state batteries at volume in Q2 2024

Edited December 21, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[KhunLA]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1534993933990646

[KhunLA]

Legacy auto manufacturer's quality ... oops

 

[Pib]

Does the Thai govt have any agency that "polices" so to speak auto manufacturers....requiring them to issue recalls for defects/safety problems?  Personally, I've never heard of any vehicle in Thailand being recalled for anything. 

 

I expect a recall in one country may not apply to another country even when the vehicles in both countries are identical....but if sold in one country with tough/enforced safety laws/regulations a recall will occur but in the other country with no-to-weak safety recall laws/regulations the vehicle will not get recalled unless the manufacturer voluntary does it.

Edited January 11 by Pib

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Pib said:

Does the Thai govt have any agency that "polices" so to speak auto manufacturers....requiring them to issue recalls for defects/safety problems?  Personally, I've never heard of any vehicle in Thailand being recalled for anything. 

 

I expect a recall in one country may not apply to another country even when the vehicles in both countries are identical....but if sold in one country with tough/enforced safety laws/regulations a recall will occur but in the other country with no-to-weak safety recall laws/regulations the vehicle will not get recalled unless the manufacturer voluntary does it.

I don't know about govt, but our 2 Toyotas & 1 Mazda advised us of recalls on the 3 of those we had here in TH.  Only other brand we've had/have is MG, and nothing yet from them.

[VocalNeal]

18 minutes ago, Pib said:

I expect a recall in one country may not apply to another country

 

Answered your own question then🤔 If they do contact you it will be a pleasant surprise.

[novacova]

32 minutes ago, Pib said:

Does the Thai govt have any agency that "polices" so to speak auto manufacturers....requiring them to issue recalls for defects/safety problems?  Personally, I've never heard of any vehicle in Thailand being recalled for anything.

Look on the manufacturers Thai website to see if there’s a recall search function using a vin. If not then don’t buy. Toyota has it. 

[VocalNeal]

6 minutes ago, novacova said:

Look on the manufacturers Thai website to see if there’s a recall search function using a vin. If not then don’t buy. Toyota has it. 

 

As this is an electric car thread. What about GWM,BYD et al🤔

Edited January 11 by VocalNeal

[KhunLA]

Continuing thoughts from 'EVs in TH'

 

Another reason to buy an EV vs ICEV, 50% more longevity, for less operating & maintenance cost:

source

 

Y'all UK folks seem to rid yourself of cars earlier.

 

[Gweiloman]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Continuing thoughts from 'EVs in TH'

 

Another reason to buy an EV vs ICEV, 50% more longevity, for less operating & maintenance cost:

source

 

Y'all UK folks seem to rid yourself of cars earlier.

 

My experience of car ownership in the UK is that a lot of people lease their cars for a period of 3-5 years after which they discontinue the lease or pay the residual/balloon payment to the leasing company to own the car outright. In my opinion, this practice tends to lead to shorter ownership periods.

 

 I have always purchased my cars outright, particularly in Thailand. As a result, I tend to hold on to them longer, 5 years plus.

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

 I have always purchased my cars outright, particularly in Thailand. As a result, I tend to hold on to them longer, 5 years plus.

Same with me, 5+ years/125+ kms for my first 3 ICEVs here.

[BritManToo]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:03 PM, KhunLA said:

Continuing thoughts from 'EVs in TH'

 

Another reason to buy an EV vs ICEV, 50% more longevity, for less operating & maintenance cost:

source

 

Y'all UK folks seem to rid yourself of cars earlier.

 

Allegedly most EV sales are on 3 year leases, then they sit in a parking lot until scrapped.

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Allegedly most EV sales are on 3 year leases, then they sit in a parking lot until scrapped.

I've never leased a car long term, and only know one person who has, and only as it was a good business deduction, since self employed.  

 

Never understood the leasing thing, unless you traded in your care every 2 or 3 yrs, and certainly not most people that I know.  Financially not practical for most.

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I've never leased a car long term, and only know one person who has, and only as it was a good business deduction, since self employed.  

 

Never understood the leasing thing, unless you traded in your care every 2 or 3 yrs, and certainly not most people that I know.  Financially not practical for most.

Companies that provide company cars often lease them. The company I retired from leased thousands of cars a year.