ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

transam trolled with that guy back on Dec 5 ... that vid was full of BS also

[4myr]

Gloomy but realistic reporting by Nikkei 

 

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, 4myr said:

Gloomy but realistic reporting by Nikkei 

Thanks, excellent vid, and yea, gloomy for JP & ICEVs.  Along with sales down, also  brain drain and people are smartly, jumping ship.  

 

CHINA ROCKS 

[josephbloggs]

4 hours ago, 4myr said:

Gloomy but realistic reporting by Nikkei 

 

What's gloomy about it? The Japanese executive admitted they brought old technology to countries like Thailand as they thought they could get away with it. Too complacent as they had almost total market control.

Even the president of Saha group has a Seal.

The consumer is getting much better value, better technology. The employees that are moving to Chinese EV makers are getting paid 50-80% more than they were getting paid at Japanese factories.

Where's the gloom? It's all good. Good for consumers, good for workers.

Sad if beloved old brands die but that happens. Nokia, Kodak, Blockbuster etc. The consumers now have iPhones, Netflix: better products. If you don't keep up to date with developments and adapt in business you die. Even worse is if you spend millions and millions on anti EV propaganda whilst closing your eyes and hoping people will buy it and the competition will have gone away when you open them again then you deserve to die.

Exciting times, not gloomy ones.

 

[4myr]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

What's gloomy about it? The Japanese executive admitted they brought old technology to countries like Thailand as they thought they could get away with it. Too complacent as they had almost total market control.

Even the president of Saha group has a Seal.

The consumer is getting much better value, better technology. The employees that are moving to Chinese EV makers are getting paid 50-80% more than they were getting paid at Japanese factories.

Where's the gloom? It's all good. Good for consumers, good for workers.

Sad if beloved old brands die but that happens. Nokia, Kodak, Blockbuster etc. The consumers now have iPhones, Netflix: better products. If you don't keep up to date with developments and adapt in business you die. Even worse is if you spend millions and millions on anti EV propaganda whilst closing your eyes and hoping people will buy it and the competition will have gone away when you open them again then you deserve to die.

Exciting times, not gloomy ones.

 

Gloomy prospect for the losers of this disruptive process, i.e.

 

1) Japanese, European, Korean and American carmakers that cannot transition and stay competitive
2) Chinese EV startups, joint ventures and state owned carmakers who have customers worldwide, including Thailand, that will not survive. Xpeng CEO expects 7 carmakers to survive. Check these 2025 predictions
3) Thai local suppliers that are not able to transition to become an EV supplier 

Losers are investors, workers and consumers of those car brands, whether ICE or EVs. In 5 years time who will ever remember these brands or companies: Weltmeister, HiPhi, Fisker, Jiyue. Next year a few can be added to the list.

 

On a country and geopolitical scale the Western axis [EU, US, Japan, Korea] can lose 5-7% of GDP of automotive industry, as China tend to monopolize whole supply chains. They already dominate solar panels [80%] and lithium batteries [80%] from the basic materials to the end product. It would not surprise me if this would happen to EVs. German suppliers and OEMs like Bosch and Volkswagen have their main EV R&D already based in China, as there is where the action is. 
And it will not stop at EV manufacturing only, but will move to other advanced manufacturing like commercial aircraft, AI and robotics.

Loss of GDP for a country means less earnings to pay for our security, health and retirement, unless that country can transition to activities that are at least profitable than the industry that was lost.

 

Links:
https://carnewschina.com/2024/12/30/top-10-predictions-for-2025-in-the-chinese-car-market/

https://kr-asia.com/thai-automotive-sector-has-four-years-to-adjust-to-china-evs-says-major-parts-maker

[vinny41]

Interesting videos from owners of Fisker Ocean 

Before  Fisker filed for Bankruptcy cars were selling for $70,000 USD

Once Bankruptcy was annouced cars were selling for $20,000 USD

We Owned a Fisker Ocean for Almost a Year and It Was Rough | Long-Term Test Wrap-Up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JRP387XpYk

Time To Buy A Fisker? Here's My Take

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW6FjVL_GtQ

Buggy software from day 1 owners were promised updates that would resolved these issues but unlikely to happen now due to Bankruptcy

Only a single car fob and a fob that doesn't always open the doors or start the car as the fob isn't always recognized by the car instead you get message no fob found

Fisker safety recalls costs will be funded by Fisker in the USA only  Europe owners unknown

[Pib]

See Bangkok Post article for full article...partial quote below.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2939505/new-us-rules-would-bar-nearly-all-chinese-vehicles

 

 

Quote

 

New US rules would bar nearly all Chinese vehicles

Final decision to be left up to incoming Trump administration

PUBLISHED : 14 Jan 2025 at 18:10

WRITER: Reuters

 

WASHINGTON - President Joe Biden’s outgoing administration is finalising rules that will effectively bar nearly all Chinese cars and trucks from the US market, as part of a crackdown on vehicle software and hardware from China.

 

 

 

 

[josephbloggs]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

See Bangkok Post article for full article...partial quote below.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2939505/new-us-rules-would-bar-nearly-all-chinese-vehicles

 

 

 

Ridiculous political grand standing and protectionism from the self proclaimed free market leader of capitalism.

Poor Americans forced to pay more for inferior products but, you know, USA! USA! USA! The rednecks will be happy. Pay more for a terrible Ford than get a great BYD.

I hope China bans Teslas, Apple and other American products in response. Trade wars don't end well for anyone but if Trump or Biden is dumb enough to start one then let them fail. 

And of course I am sure Musk has no hand in this, no siree, no conflicts of interest there.

Meanwhile the rest of us will be able to buy superior products at good value prices. Let America drown in its own nationalist excrement.

[Yellowtail]

8 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Ridiculous political grand standing and protectionism from the self proclaimed free market leader of capitalism.

Poor Americans forced to pay more for inferior products but, you know, USA! USA! USA! The rednecks will be happy. Pay more for a terrible Ford than get a great BYD.

I hope China bans Teslas, Apple and other American products in response. Trade wars don't end well for anyone but if Trump or Biden is dumb enough to start one then let them fail. 

And of course I am sure Musk has no hand in this, no siree, no conflicts of interest there.

Meanwhile the rest of us will be able to buy superior products at good value prices. Let America drown in its own nationalist excrement.

Go with God brother. 

[Andrew Dwyer]

10 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Ridiculous political grand standing and protectionism from the self proclaimed free market leader of capitalism.

Poor Americans forced to pay more for inferior products but, you know, USA! USA! USA! The rednecks will be happy. Pay more for a terrible Ford than get a great BYD.

I hope China bans Teslas, Apple and other American products in response. Trade wars don't end well for anyone but if Trump or Biden is dumb enough to start one then let them fail. 

And of course I am sure Musk has no hand in this, no siree, no conflicts of interest there.

Meanwhile the rest of us will be able to buy superior products at good value prices. Let America drown in its own nationalist excrement.

Due to failing Cybertruck sales Tesla branches out into other markets !

 

[Pib]

Looks like Benz and Tesla are taking a beating and the overall registrations for premium brands is down.  See autolife weblink below for full story.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/premium-brands-register-sales-volume-thailand-2024/

 

Summary of Premium Brand car registrations in Thailand in 2024, total 34,540 cars (-22.6%): BMW is the champion

 

[KhunLA]

Up the Revolution ... one driver at a time 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/6/2024 at 4:34 PM, Rampant Rabbit said:

But what you omit is  it only  has  a  population of 5 million which is  tiny and its electric production due to its geo location and abundant water is hdyro electric 95% which is very cheap to produce "if"  you have the water to do it. Also as mentioned its  selling  gas an oil to everyone at high prices with higher demand due to Russian war. On top of that it has heavy subsidies for electric  vehicles and mandates ONLY electric/zero emission for 2025. In other words they have no choice. You could say "cherry picked"

NZ has a population of 5 million, and I'm happy to say has given the finger salute to EVs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_New_Zealand

By 2024 year-end, there were 119,036 registered plug-in electric vehicles in New Zealand, consisting of 83,806 battery-electric vehicles (BEV) and 35,230 plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV), together making up 2.4% of the national fleet of 4.9 million vehicles.[6] In 2024, 11.2 percent of all new car registrations were plug-in electric vehicles.[1]

 

Obviously most Norwegians are rich enough to buy EVs, unlike in NZ where cheap second hand cars are popular.

NZ doesn't have the electric capacity to be having loads of EVs, and we drive long distances, which makes an EV pointless.

Public charging points are a rarity, and I have not seen an EV plugged in at a service station- all filling up with good old fossil fuel.

[JBChiangRai]

Interesting comparison of the BYD Shark 6 vs the Ford Ranger Raptor 3 litre.

 

The BYD is faster off the line.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1AQtzjnMb5/

[Pib]

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-germany.html

Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China

Chinese drivers are buying affordable electric vehicles loaded with new technology, a trend that is redefining high-end vehicles and hurting German automakers.

 

After decades of dominating China’s market for high-performance cars with precision engineering, German automakers are losing out to Chinese rivals that have shifted the definition of a high-end car to one that is electric, smart and affordable.

 

Many new Chinese vehicles resemble their German rivals, like the wildly popular Xiaomi SU7, which mimics Porsche’s Taycan. The SU7 rivals the Taycan in power and braking, but it also includes integrated artificial intelligence that can, for instance, help with parking and greet drivers with their favorite song. The cherry on top: It sells for roughly half the price of a Taycan.

 

As a result, the German automakers that for decades commanded China’s premium car market are now seeing their sales dwindle, while Xiaomi — a leading Chinese smartphone manufacturer — last year sold more than 100,000 models of the SU7.

 

Among the hardest hit has been Porsche, which reported last month that its deliveries in China plunged 28 percent in 2024. Although Porsche’s sales were up in every other region around the world, the decline in China was significant enough to pull down its global deliveries for the year by 3 percent.

 

For years, German automakers relied on the Chinese market to make up for weaker demand elsewhere, leading them to ignore deeper structural problems at home. Chief among them was a reluctance to adopt the technology that has come to define driving in China: electric vehicles equipped with sophisticated software and, increasingly, artificial intelligence.

 

[richard_smith237]

On 2/1/2025 at 9:02 AM, KhunLA said:

Up the Revolution ... one driver at a time 

 

 

 

 

 

Very true....  But, the reason I purchased my car was not because it was an EV...    It was because I liked the actual car (if it were an ICE I would have purchased it).

 

I'm also not pro-EV....  But I do see many many flaws in the anti-EV arguments, many of them based on emotion rather than facts. Equally so, I see many flaws in the anti-ICE arguments, or many 'convenient' miss-truths in the pro-EV arguments when  comparisons are not make on 'true like for like' factors. 

 

Both EV's and ICE's have their own Pro's and Con's...   as a recent ICE owner, the car was excellent. 

As a 'now' EV owner for a few months, the car is excellent....   the reality is... within their own 'class range' all modern cars are pretty great.

 

 

So... its not about revolution - because, IF everyone gets an EV tomorrow, it could be pretty disastrous..... 

 

Kind of like boasting about your favourite tourist spot then complaining when it gets too busy. 

 

As of now, there are no brownouts, no grid failures due to over usage at peak-charging times. 

No massive queues at public EV charging stations etc...     

 

But... at some point, the shift in critical mass will cause issues...   One of them will be 'tax'  on electricity...    I'm sure that our 'cheap home charging' will become more expensive as the governments start missing out on Tax....  maybe Road Tax on EV's themselves will become higher. 

(they are heavier and cause more damage to road infrastructure etc)... 

 

... So, even with your home grid (Khun LA) you may still see higher costs in future (thats a complete unknown of course) but the governments will want their missing tax money from somewhere !!!

 

EV's are good, ICE's are also good - one is not better than the other, not for all of us....   We 'need' both options... (and ICE's can also be clean, particularly the modern ones - the pollution comes from all other older trucks etc)... 

.... a revolutionary shift from ICEs to all EV's on the roads could be quite problematic IMO... 

 

Then... there a future environmental disaster approaching - recycling EV batteries could be even more problematic....   Will EV owners be charged to actually 'get rid of their vehicle' due to recycling difficulties of their batteries ?... I've no idea, but all food for thought..... 

 

No... I don't see a revolutionary change as a good thing where EV's are concerned....  quite the opposite...     a balance of each based on individual needs will be beneficial. 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Recent O&A ...  total 1145 kms

 

PKK to Krung Thep

Krung Thep to Samut Songkhram

Samut Songkhram to Kanchanaburi

Kanchanaburi to Kaeng Krachen 

Kaeng Krachen to Hua Hin to PKK

 

Topped up @ PEA, EV Station Pluz (3X) & MG

Left house (PKK) @ 100% returned @ 17%

 

 

Cost ... BEV vs ICEV