ICE vs EV, the debate thread

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3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, I do believe in supply and demand, I'm not a leftist. 

 

Why do you have to resort to lying? I did not say they would be more crowded, I said that if a station can process three hundred units a day. and it takes two extra minutes to process each unit, processing the units will take an additional ten hours. 

 

Is that not true? 

 

But you are correct, It the same number people are attempting to use the same service, if it takes longer to process each one, it will likely be more crowded. 

 

It's only true if the station is maxxed out for the entire day and people are waiting for charges.

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12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to the results of the study of the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, Each type of electric vehicle charging station requires an average investment of 2-3 million baht per installation of 1 AC or 1 DC unit with a parking space. with a payback period of approximately 2-4 years.

https://www.thansettakij.com/property/531406

Thanks for showing me that I was wrong about the cost of installing a commercial level supercharger. And I'm sure you'll also thank me for pointing out that your comparison of the cost of installing a charger  to the cost of maintaining  smoking lounge was invalid. A payback period of 2 to 4 years sounds like an excellent investment for a condo to make.

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16 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to the results of the study of the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, Each type of electric vehicle charging station requires an average investment of 2-3 million baht per installation of 1 AC or 1 DC unit with a parking space. with a payback period of approximately 2-4 years.

https://www.thansettakij.com/property/531406

And of course a condo could take a far less expensive route and offer level 3 chargers instead of superchargers. Or even level 2 chargers.

[KhunLA]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to the results of the study of the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, Each type of electric vehicle charging station requires an average investment of 2-3 million baht per installation of 1 AC or 1 DC unit with a parking space. with a payback period of approximately 2-4 years.

https://www.thansettakij.com/property/531406

Would these be the same folks lobbying the govt for subsidies to expand their network of chargers, maybe without tapping their billions in profit already made.  hmm ... 

[Yellowtail]

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Alleged personal experiences apparently are all you've got. You think this qualifies as evidence?

I think it's better evidence  than you refencing an article about new transformers not being installed on the roof of an office building to prove that shopping center transformers are installed on the roof. 

 

I think that's hilarious.

 

 

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Is this like your claim that you purchased a phone in 1975 for $8 and now a phone costs $1600.

Are you claiming one could not buy a phone for $8 in 1975? 

 

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Since your comparison only is relevant if the  capabilities of those phones are the same,

Why? 

 

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I have to ask you are you a time traveler?

No, but I was alive then, and I'm alive now. 

 

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Come to think of it I guess not since you claimed the phone cost $8. You must have built it yourself. Which is amazing considering all the things that a $1600 phone can do nowadays. 

Cars (getting back on topic) do a lot of things they did not do fifty years ago too, and the technology has improved tremendously as well, many of the components are much cheaper to produce than ever before, but cars keep getting more expensive. 

 

Are quality electric motors cheaper than they were a hundred years abo? 

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's only true if the station is maxxed out for the entire day and people are waiting for charges.

Not true. It takes an additional ten hours regardless. I think you are arguing that it only has additional cost if the station is maxed out all day. 

 

I don't know, but I would guess there are three to five peak hours a day that most stations have to be designed around. If it takes longer to process each unit, and you need to push the same number of units though, you need to increase capacity of the station.  Surly you understand this, yes? 

 

 

[vinny41]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And of course a condo could take a far less expensive route and offer level 3 chargers instead of superchargers. Or even level 2 chargers.

I suspect most condo building owners will go for the cheapest option and offer nothing

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10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think it's better evidence  than you refencing an article about new transformers not being installed on the roof of an office building to prove that shopping center transformers are installed on the roof. 

 

I think that's hilarious.

If I were cruel, I would say that I think dyslexia is hilarious. Here's the headline once again:

"San Francisco: New Rooftop Transformers Improve Office Building’s Reliability, Safety

"It was quite a sight Saturday (June 16) as the crane removed two of the old transformers and guided them to the street below. Then, one by one, the crane hoisted the new 17,700-pound transformers to the roof and placed them in the vault"

What does "rooftop" mean to you?

[Yellowtail]

41 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Define forever. I've read that it can take 24 hours to do that. But that's for the USA.

Keep in mind that in the US the voltage is half of what it is in thailand. So, 12 hours to fully charge. Plug in your car in the evening and you should get pretty close to a full charge in 12 hours. And that's if your battery is virtually empty. Not gonna be the case too often. So think of all the time you've saved by not having to go out of your way to get to a service station and then the time it takes to fill up the car.

 

And now it's down to 2 minutes for filling a tank? Not even yellowtail made such an extravagant claim. 2 minutes certainly doesn't correspond to my experience at filling stations. 

This is hilarious. Does it take twice as long to charge your phone in the US? 

 

Or 20 times as long to charge your phone in the car? 

 

You crack me up.

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1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

I suspect most condo building owners will go for the cheapest option and offer nothing

I suspect that as time goes by and EV's gradually become more common and then prevalent, condo owners will agree to installing the cheapest options first and work their way up to the most expensive, and most profitable, ones.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If I were cruel, I would say that I think dyslexia is hilarious. Here's the headline once again:

"San Francisco: New Rooftop Transformers Improve Office Building’s Reliability, Safety

"It was quite a sight Saturday (June 16) as the crane removed two of the old transformers and guided them to the street below. Then, one by one, the crane hoisted the new 17,700-pound transformers to the roof and placed them in the vault"

What does "rooftop" mean to you?

Do you ever read past the headline? From your post: PG&E is overseeing an electrical improvement project months in the making to replace three transformers in a vault just below the roof...

 

What does "below" mean to? 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I suspect that as time goes by and EV's gradually become more common and then prevalent, condo owners will agree to installing the cheapest options first and work their way up to the most expensive, and most profitable, ones.

If they are profitable, why would they wait? 

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1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

This is hilarious. Does it take twice as long to charge your phone in the US? 

 

Or 20 times as long to charge your phone in the car? 

 

You crack me up.

 L2 chargers operate at 208-240 V and output anywhere from 3 kW to 19 kW of AC power. This power output translates to 18-28 miles of range per hour. An average EV can be fully charged in 8 hours or less.

So let me get this straight. You're claiming that after being charged for an hour, your phone battery is charged enough to power an EV 18-28 miles? That it holds just as much charge from an hour of charging as that EV battery does?

Apparently, not only did you build a phone in 1975 that's the equivalent of a phone today, but you've also created the most powerful battery in existence. Congratulations!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you ever read past the headline? From your post: PG&E is overseeing an electrical improvement project months in the making to replace three transformers in a vault just below the roof...

 

What does "below" mean to? 

 

 

You're correct. My mistake. It's in a vault below the roof. But how is that relevant to the fact that unlike a tank of fuel, the tranformer can be located way up high, far from a parking space?

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26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Not true. It takes an additional ten hours regardless. I think you are arguing that it only has additional cost if the station is maxed out all day. 

 

I don't know, but I would guess there are three to five peak hours a day that most stations have to be designed around. If it takes longer to process each unit, and you need to push the same number of units though, you need to increase capacity of the station.  Surly you understand this, yes? 

 

 

Even if that's true, and thanks for not citing any source at all, as per usual, much faster charging times are coming soon. And unlike the situation with gasoline, the charging stations don't depend on staff for servie. So you don't have to wait for service when the station is busy. I don't know about you, but I spend a lot of time waiting for my payments to be processed when the staff is stressed.

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15 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

If they are profitable, why would they wait? 

Just maybe, just maybe, because BEV's are still a miniscule percentage of all vehicles in Thailand.

[SomchaiDIY]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

San Francisco: New Rooftop Transformers Improve Office Building’s Reliability, Safety

Thank you much for this but i ask for example on roof of shopping mall not office with space limit

 

Never mind i understand this not easy find

 

Some more research show roof is not popular place for big power transformer. many engineering + logistics reason for this

 

Is nice to read about future plan for super battery and fast charge but best to see wide uses in real world before making these idea in argument for ev car

 

 

Some of ev super battery idea  come from ev bus battery research where bus can make fast topup at park station on route. this lots more easy than the fast charge service for million cars

[vinny41]

55 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for showing me that I was wrong about the cost of installing a commercial level supercharger. And I'm sure you'll also thank me for pointing out that your comparison of the cost of installing a charger  to the cost of maintaining  smoking lounge was invalid. A payback period of 2 to 4 years sounds like an excellent investment for a condo to make.

Sorry to disppoint you but my comparison of non-smokers living in condos  asking them  to pay towards installing a smoking room with maintenance that they wouldn't use is the same as asking non ev owners to bay for chargers and maintenance both groups will stated we get no benefit from these services, we don't use these services and we have no intention of paying for something that we don't use

So comparison stands and is valid

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1 minute ago, SomchaiDIY said:

Thank you much for this but i ask for example on roof of shopping mall not office with space limit

 

Never mind i understand this not easy find

 

Some more research show roof is not popular place for big power transformer. many engineering + logistics reason for this

 

Is nice to read about future plan for super battery and fast charge but best to see wide uses in real world before making these idea in argument for ev car

 

 

Some of ev super battery idea  come from ev bus battery research where bus can make fast topup at park station on route. this lots more easy than the fast charge service for million cars

The battery actually exists and is going into production in 2023.

[SomchaiDIY]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

The battery actually exists and is going into production in 2023.

Yes but i already say we must wait to see the practical application before using in argument

 

Many super bus battery on operating test but not in real world application 

 

Using idea for future time in real time argument always bad idea

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1 minute ago, SomchaiDIY said:

Yes but i already say we must wait to see the practical application before using in argument

 

Many super bus battery on operating test but not in real world application 

 

Using idea for future time in real time argument always bad idea

This is not about a new use or new approach . It's just a battery with improved storage capacity and fast charging times that will fit into autos currently being manufactured. Keep in mind that this battery is a product of the biggest EV battery company in the world.

[Rimmer]

A troll baiting post has been removed

[Yellowtail]

32 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You're correct. My mistake. It's in a vault below the roof. But how is that relevant to the fact that unlike a tank of fuel, the tranformer can be located way up high, far from a parking space?

Are you now claiming that fuel tanks can't be "...located way up high, far from a parking space?" 

 

But we were not talking about high-rises, we were talking about charge/fuel station where the tanks are underground. 

 

 

[SomchaiDIY]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

This is not about a new use or new approach . It's just a battery with improved storage capacity and fast charging times that will fit into autos currently being manufactured. Keep in mind that this battery is a product of the biggest EV battery company in the world.

Like i already say we wait for real world ev car application of better improve battery then maybe everyone can have a celebration

 

I know the 3 big china battery company because we make some special laser cut tool for byd case production

I read often the tech papers from battery maker in china

 

My english translate assist app tell me you make the split hair argument

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Just now, Yellowtail said:

Are you now claiming that fuel tanks can't be "...located way up high, far from a parking space?" 

 

But we were not talking about high-rises, we were talking about charge/fuel station where the tanks are underground. 

 

 

I was pointing out the advantages of a transformer. It doesn't have to be located anywhere near the vicinity of a parking lot. And the conversation was about charging in parking lots.

To use tanks you need to dig up ground. And how many more gas stations can be built in central bangkok to create what is essentially a no rise building. A lot less expensive and a lot more flexible to install chargers.

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4 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

Like i already say we wait for real world ev car application of better improve battery then maybe everyone can have a celebration

 

I know the 3 big china battery company because we make some special laser cut tool for byd case production

I read often the tech papers from battery maker in china

 

My english translate assist app tell me you make the split hair argument

I don't think so. This isn't some blue sky promise. Not vaporware. Its manufacture on a mass scale is imminent. Unless you think that CATL is not to be trusted. Do they have a history of making false promises?

[Yellowtail]

48 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 L2 chargers operate at 208-240 V and output anywhere from 3 kW to 19 kW of AC power. This power output translates to 18-28 miles of range per hour. An average EV can be fully charged in 8 hours or less.

So let me get this straight. You're claiming that after being charged for an hour, your phone battery is charged enough to power an EV 18-28 miles? That it holds just as much charge from an hour of charging as that EV battery does?

Apparently, not only did you build a phone in 1975 that's the equivalent of a phone today, but you've also created the most powerful battery in existence. Congratulations!

 

 

I was responding to you when you claimed/implies that things in the US take twice as long to charge than they do in Thailand. Is that not what you meant? 

 

 

[SomchaiDIY]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

I don't think so. This isn't some blue sky promise. Not vaporware. Its manufacture on a mass scale is imminent. Unless you think that CATL is not to be trusted. Do they have a history of making false promises?

What do you not think so?

 

I make no mentions of the blue sky or promise and make no comment of catl

 

I only make suggest that best wait for product applications before using in the argument. 

 

You sound very confuse maybe take some relax rest for short time

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Just now, Yellowtail said:

I was responding to you when you claimed/implies that things in the US take twice as long to charge than they do in Thailand. Is that not what you meant? 

 

 

What I said was the the standard current in the USA was 110-120 volts. To use a level 2 charger you need 220-240 volts. So in the US you need an electrician to create a 220 volt line.

In Thailand the standard current is 220-240. No special installation needed.

 

As for my comment about charging, it was in response to Transam about home basic charge for EV's. I pointed out that voltage in thailand is twice as strong as in the USA. (or for that matter Canada and Mexico)

 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

What do you not think so?

 

I make no mentions of the blue sky or promise and make no comment of catl

 

I only make suggest that best wait for product applications before using in the argument. 

 

You sound very confuse maybe take some relax rest for short time

If anyone sounds confused it's you. But that may be due to the fault in your translation software. You originally compared this to a bus system that works very differently from most EVs. But this isn't like that at all. Just a battery upgrade.