ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Interesting video that shows how easy it could be to swap batteries in EVs.  It is already being done in China in mass.  The battery component is really the only EV risk IMO and that will be eliminated or greatly reduced in the next 5 years.  There were going to be repair shops popping up everywhere soon enough that will drastically reduce battery repair cost .  This happened with the Nissan Leaf in America and will happen in Thailand.  This video shows how easy the process could be.  Low tech video which makes it more real.

 

 I had six tow-motors that did this twenty years ago. 

[atpeace]

49 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 I had six tow-motors that did this twenty years ago. 

I'm slow tonight.  That went over my head.  Dummy it up a little please.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

 I had six tow-motors that did this twenty years ago. 

You talking forklifts?

[JBChiangRai]

Interesting article about how ignorance about EV's is holding back EV uptake in the UK.

 

Ignorance of how EVs work is holding back uptake, says survey | Electrek

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Interesting article about how ignorance about EV's is holding back EV uptake in the UK.

 

Ignorance of how EVs work is holding back uptake, says survey | Electrek

Ignorance is the only reason not to by an BEV, unless you must have a pick up truck.  Aside from unable or unwilling to charge.   

 

Price certainly isn't a issue.  Range shouldn't be an issue for most people.

[Andrew Dwyer]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Interesting article about how ignorance about EV's is holding back EV uptake in the UK.

 

Ignorance of how EVs work is holding back uptake, says survey | Electrek

My daughter just bought an iX1 in the U.K..

Happy to know she is not ignorant but buying a beemer means there’s room for improvement.

 

 

[Cameroni]

Volvo becomes latest car maker to abandon plans to sell only electric vehicles by 2030

 

Bosses said decision a result of 'slower than expected' rollout of EV chargers

Also blamed withdrawal of EV incentives and tariffs on electric vehicles 

 

Volvo has confirmed it has backtracked on its promise to sell only fully electric cars by 2030 due to a fall in demand for battery vehicles.

 

It comes in response to a decline in appetite for EVs across major markets, including a slowing uptake of battery cars among private buyers in the UK. 

 

Having previously stated it would no longer be selling its iconic estate cars in the UK last year, in June it said they would return to UK showrooms less than a year after they were axed.

 

And they will be coming back with hybrid petrol engines under the bonnet, as demand for electric vehicles stalls. 

 

The Swedish brand is the latest in a long list of mainstream manufacturers performing U-turns on their EV ambitions. 

Renault's chief executive in July became one of the latest motor industry big name to cast doubts on the transition to electric cars in this decade, warning that sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

Luxury car maker Porsche also said in recent weeks that the transition to electric vehicles to take longer than it thought. 

As a result, it has announced it is watering down its aims for 80 per cent of sales to be all-electric by 2030 and went on to confirm it will continue to sell the existing Cayenne SUV with combustion engines into the next decade.

 

It comes after Ford recently said its own plans to become an EV-only brand from 2030 were 'too ambitious' and Fiat confirmed it has torn up plans for its 500 city car to be electric-only because older drivers don't want electric models.

 

German auto giant Mercedes-Benz this year announced it too will extend the production cycle of one of its biggest-selling combustion cars due to concerns about EV take-up.

 

Audi has scaled back the rollout of EV models due to falling demand while VW has also adjusted its production outputs due to a combination of parts shortages and lower-than-expected sales.

 

Other manufacturers are reluctant to push ahead with ditching combustion engines.

 

 

 

In May, Toyota, Mazda and Subaru committed to bring to market smaller petrol engines to use alongside hybrid technology and adopt green biofuels to lower vehicle emissions as the Japanese motor brands suggests their hesitance to go entirely electric.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13812701/Volvo-abandon-plans-sell-electric-vehicles-2030.html?ico=mol_desktop_electriccars

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

The Swedish brand is the latest in a long list of mainstream manufacturers performing U-turns on their EV ambitions. 

Renault's chief executive in July became one of the latest motor industry big name to cast doubts on the transition to electric cars in this decade, warning that sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

Reality bites.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Volvo becomes latest car maker to abandon plans to sell only electric vehicles by 2030

 

Bosses said decision a result of 'slower than expected' rollout of EV chargers

Also blamed withdrawal of EV incentives and tariffs on electric vehicles 

 

Volvo has confirmed it has backtracked on its promise to sell only fully electric cars by 2030 due to a fall in demand for battery vehicles.

 

It comes in response to a decline in appetite for EVs across major markets, including a slowing uptake of battery cars among private buyers in the UK. 

 

Having previously stated it would no longer be selling its iconic estate cars in the UK last year, in June it said they would return to UK showrooms less than a year after they were axed.

 

And they will be coming back with hybrid petrol engines under the bonnet, as demand for electric vehicles stalls. 

 

The Swedish brand is the latest in a long list of mainstream manufacturers performing U-turns on their EV ambitions. 

Renault's chief executive in July became one of the latest motor industry big name to cast doubts on the transition to electric cars in this decade, warning that sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

Luxury car maker Porsche also said in recent weeks that the transition to electric vehicles to take longer than it thought. 

As a result, it has announced it is watering down its aims for 80 per cent of sales to be all-electric by 2030 and went on to confirm it will continue to sell the existing Cayenne SUV with combustion engines into the next decade.

 

It comes after Ford recently said its own plans to become an EV-only brand from 2030 were 'too ambitious' and Fiat confirmed it has torn up plans for its 500 city car to be electric-only because older drivers don't want electric models.

 

German auto giant Mercedes-Benz this year announced it too will extend the production cycle of one of its biggest-selling combustion cars due to concerns about EV take-up.

 

Audi has scaled back the rollout of EV models due to falling demand while VW has also adjusted its production outputs due to a combination of parts shortages and lower-than-expected sales.

 

Other manufacturers are reluctant to push ahead with ditching combustion engines.

 

 

 

In May, Toyota, Mazda and Subaru committed to bring to market smaller petrol engines to use alongside hybrid technology and adopt green biofuels to lower vehicle emissions as the Japanese motor brands suggests their hesitance to go entirely electric.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13812701/Volvo-abandon-plans-sell-electric-vehicles-2030.html?ico=mol_desktop_electriccars

 

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Reality bites.

 

 

 

Not at all guys.

 

What does a legacy company do when they can't compete in the EV space?

 

Think about it.

 

JonnyF, I'm beginning to wonder about your integrity.  You had a relative selling an EV because she hated it.  You agreed to pass my number on as I am interested buyer.

 

I never received a call.  Do you really have such a relative?

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Volvo becomes latest car maker to abandon plans to sell only electric vehicles by 2030

 

Bosses said decision a result of 'slower than expected' rollout of EV chargers

Also blamed withdrawal of EV incentives and tariffs on electric vehicles 

 

Volvo has confirmed it has backtracked on its promise to sell only fully electric cars by 2030 due to a fall in demand for battery vehicles.

 

It comes in response to a decline in appetite for EVs across major markets, including a slowing uptake of battery cars among private buyers in the UK. 

 

 

 

 

Jim Rowan, chief executive of Volvo, said: “We are resolute in our belief that our future is electric.

 

Volvo is now aiming for between 90pc and 100pc of cars sold to be fully electric or plug-in hybrid models by the end of the decade. 

 

Volvo ditches electric car plans (msn.com)

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Not at all guys.

 

What does a legacy company do when they can't compete in the EV space?

 

Think about it.

 

Continue selling ICE cars and hybrids. That's what most people want anyway. EV cars sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

JonnyF, I'm beginning to wonder about your integrity.  You had a relative selling an EV because she hated it.  You agreed to pass my number on as I am interested buyer.

 

I never received a call.  Do you really have such a relative?

 

I passed your details on. It's up to her now, I'm not going to start following up with her, I'm not a second hand car salesman and besides you could be a serial killer for all I know.

[vinny41]

Ora canceled White Car and Black Cat small EVs due to losses, despite strong sales

For most producers, selling 20,000 cars of a model a month would be seen as a success, but in the case of Ora an EV brand from Great Wall Motor, such sales meant a loss. This was the explanation Dong Yudong, CEO of Ora, gave for the discontinuation of the Black Cat and White Cat small electric hatchbacks over the last couple of years.

In an interview, Dong explained the decision and outlined the economics. Although the Ora brand has had monthly sales in the region of 20,000 for the Black Cat and White Cat models, according to Dong, the brand lost 10,000 yuan (1,400 USD) with each sale. He says that the monthly loss was more than 200 million yuan (28 million USD) which was unsustainable for the brand.

https://carnewschina.com/2024/09/02/ora-canceled-white-car-and-black-cat-small-evs-due-to-losses-despite-strong-sales/

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Continue selling ICE cars and hybrids. That's what most people want anyway. EV cars sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

 

They most definitely are in Thailand.

 

It's all about price.

[Cameroni]

19 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Jim Rowan, chief executive of Volvo, said: “We are resolute in our belief that our future is electric.

 

Volvo is now aiming for between 90pc and 100pc of cars sold to be fully electric or plug-in hybrid models by the end of the decade. 

 

Volvo ditches electric car plans (msn.com)

 

Fair point. He did say that. Next year he'll say "Volvo is now aiming for between 80 and 100 pc of carsd sold to be fully electric".

 

This doesn't change the fact that not just Volvo, but a long, long list of car manufacturers who had previously made big statements about selling 100% EVs are now going back on their statements and will actually produce ICE cars until well into the next decade, ie 2030s.

 

There will be a place for EVs, but it looks like the chairman of Toyota was substantially right, that they will just have a portion of the market, it won't be a clear cut pure EV car market. Even if he got the exact percentage wrong, the substance of the prediction looks to be coming true.

[motdaeng]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

What does a legacy company do when they can't compete in the EV space?

 

i completely agree with that statement! they simply can't compete because they've been asleep for the last 20 years and have severely underestimated china in many areas ...

 

 

Electric car sales in Norway took a 94% share of the market in August

a new world record  statistics showed Monday, as sales in the rest of Europe stagnate.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/norway-s-electric-car-sales-set-new-world-record-/7768036.html

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Fair point. He did say that. Next year he'll say "Volvo is now aiming for between 80 and 100 pc of carsd sold to be fully electric".

 

This doesn't change the fact that not just Volvo, but a long, long list of car manufacturers who had previously made big statements about selling 100% EVs are now going back on their statements and will actually produce ICE cars until well into the next decade, ie 2030s.

 

There will be a place for EVs, but it looks like the chairman of Toyota was substantially right, that they will just have a portion of the market, it won't be a clear cut pure EV car market. Even if he got the exact percentage wrong, the substance of the prediction looks to be coming true.

IMHO it’s all about the cost of EV’s.

 

Tariff Chinese EV’s to buggery and you will be right in that country.

 

Tariff them lightly like Thailand and you will be wrong in that country.

 

I feel sorry for consumers who are denied the possibility of buying them at a sensible price.

[Cameroni]

Do I read this correctly, that EVs have a 12% market share of light vehicles?

 

https://www.evuniverse.io/p/evsales2024-h1

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Ignorance is the only reason not to by an BEV, unless you must have a pick up truck.  Aside from unable or unwilling to charge.   

 

Price certainly isn't a issue.  Range shouldn't be an issue for most people.

Unwilling will depend on one's driving and how many kms they rack up in a month.  If we couldn't charge at home, then easy enough to charge while shopping or having a meal and certainly wouldn't be an inconvenience.

 

Topped up at home the other day, and since then 3 days / 3 trips into town.  Approximately 28 kms total, using ~7%.  Times that, 3 days/7% by 10 times, for a month's worth of kms, and we'd have to top up once a month.  Easily done while shopping and or eating, since going to be there anyway, once a month.

 

Not charging at home isn't  the end all to owning, unless you need to top up every day or every other day, due to high kms driving daily.   Everyone goes shopping or out for a meal at least once a week.

[JBChiangRai]

24 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Do I read this correctly, that EVs have a 12% market share of light vehicles?

 

https://www.evuniverse.io/p/evsales2024-h1

 

Thailand was over 13% market share for EV in new vehicle sales for July, we should get August figures within a week.

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Thailand was over 13% market share for EV in new vehicle sales for July, we should get August figures within a week.

 

Ok, thanks so thereabouts.  I'd be curious how far market share goes by 2030.

[JonnyF]

52 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

i completely agree with that statement! they simply can't compete because they've been asleep for the last 20 years and have severely underestimated china in many areas ...

 

 

Electric car sales in Norway took a 94% share of the market in August

a new world record  statistics showed Monday, as sales in the rest of Europe stagnate.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/norway-s-electric-car-sales-set-new-world-record-/7768036.html

 

Yes the Norweigan government is subsidizing them. They have to, otherwise they won't sell. 

 

 

It's a classic tactic. Eliminate the competition with subsidies and then when everyone has switched to EV, remove the subsidies. 

 

In the EU, EV sales are at 12.1%. 

[motdaeng]

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yes the Norweigan government is subsidizing them. They have to, otherwise they won't sell.

 

norway is a rich country and the people are well educated. you really think the only reason 94% of new car owners decided to buy an ev is the price? 

 

can it be that you look down at  norwegian or / and ev owners? they are buying ev because they love it and it makes sense for them, not only because of the subsidizing...

[Gweiloman]

It’s amazing how so many people can get it wrong when it comes to talking about EVs and EV sales.

 

Put aside China which is the world’s largest automotive market. The US is, I believe, the 2nd biggest automotive market in the world. It is a well known fact that the public charging infrastructure there is extremely backward and poor. Couple this with highly punitive tariffs on affordable, well made EVs from China and you are left with inferior, expensive US and European made EVs. Add to that, the disinformation being spread and it’s no wonder then that not many people would want to buy an EV even though it’s an excellent product under most circumstances. Legacy car makers can see this and it is therefore a sensible business decision to continue selling hybrids and ICEVs especially in such markets. It would definitely be foolish for legacy makers to sell only EVs when they are in a market like the US.

 

In any case, I can confidently say that those of us in Thailand who have bought an EV are extremely happy with our purchase and would probably never buy another ICEV unless it’s the only available option. For others, continue enjoying your ICEV. 
 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

In any case, I can confidently say that those of us in Thailand who have bought an EV are extremely happy with our purchase and would probably never buy another ICEV unless it’s the only available option. For others, continue enjoying your ICEV. 

Yea ... what he said 👍👍

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Ok, thanks so thereabouts.  I'd be curious how far market share goes by 2030.

in February I think the market sure here was about 6%. It’s been increasing every month on month continuously to 13 point something or other percent in July. 

[josephbloggs]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

in February I think the market sure here was about 6%. It’s been increasing every month on month continuously to 13 point something or other percent in July. 

Useless anecdotal evidence here but I went to the supermarket this afternoon and counted 13 full EVs in the car park. Dolphins, Seals, Attos, A Good Cat, an MG Maxis, a couple of Teslas, a couple of Deepals and a Lotus Eletra.

I couldn't be arsed counting the number of cars but I reckon is was close to 20% EV.

[Pib]

 

As FYI, the latest DLT registrations stats for August are out on the DLT website.  The DLT completely redid how they display the stats in their spreadsheet....less detail.   But if I sorted and summed correctly for the "RY1" category only (i.e., passenger vehicles of no more than 7 passengers) a total of 39,444 of all RY1 fuel types (i.e., petrol, diesel, electric, CNG, etc) were registered for August with 6,202  (15.7%) of those being fully electric.

 

I expect autolife will soon come out with some stats but recently they have been adding in some fully electric from a couple other category other than RY1 so I fully expect their numbers will be a little different.

 

[JBChiangRai]

20 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Volvo becomes latest car maker to abandon plans to sell only electric vehicles by 2030

 

Bosses said decision a result of 'slower than expected' rollout of EV chargers

Also blamed withdrawal of EV incentives and tariffs on electric vehicles 

 

Volvo has confirmed it has backtracked on its promise to sell only fully electric cars by 2030 due to a fall in demand for battery vehicles.

 

It comes in response to a decline in appetite for EVs across major markets, including a slowing uptake of battery cars among private buyers in the UK. 

 

Having previously stated it would no longer be selling its iconic estate cars in the UK last year, in June it said they would return to UK showrooms less than a year after they were axed.

 

And they will be coming back with hybrid petrol engines under the bonnet, as demand for electric vehicles stalls. 

 

The Swedish brand is the latest in a long list of mainstream manufacturers performing U-turns on their EV ambitions. 

Renault's chief executive in July became one of the latest motor industry big name to cast doubts on the transition to electric cars in this decade, warning that sales are not on the 'right trajectory'. 

 

Luxury car maker Porsche also said in recent weeks that the transition to electric vehicles to take longer than it thought. 

As a result, it has announced it is watering down its aims for 80 per cent of sales to be all-electric by 2030 and went on to confirm it will continue to sell the existing Cayenne SUV with combustion engines into the next decade.

 

It comes after Ford recently said its own plans to become an EV-only brand from 2030 were 'too ambitious' and Fiat confirmed it has torn up plans for its 500 city car to be electric-only because older drivers don't want electric models.

 

German auto giant Mercedes-Benz this year announced it too will extend the production cycle of one of its biggest-selling combustion cars due to concerns about EV take-up.

 

Audi has scaled back the rollout of EV models due to falling demand while VW has also adjusted its production outputs due to a combination of parts shortages and lower-than-expected sales.

 

Other manufacturers are reluctant to push ahead with ditching combustion engines.

 

 

 

In May, Toyota, Mazda and Subaru committed to bring to market smaller petrol engines to use alongside hybrid technology and adopt green biofuels to lower vehicle emissions as the Japanese motor brands suggests their hesitance to go entirely electric.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13812701/Volvo-abandon-plans-sell-electric-vehicles-2030.html?ico=mol_desktop_electriccars

 

17 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Reality bites.

 

 

 

In the UK, Sales of electric cars have exceeded binding Government targets for the first time this year with 23 per cent of all new models entering the road in August powered solely by batteries, official figures have confirmed.

 

EV sales EXCEED government targets for the first time - but it comes amidst claims manufacturers are rationing petrol car availability to avoid fines (msn.com)

 

 

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

In the UK, Sales of electric cars have exceeded binding Government targets for the first time this year with 23 per cent of all new models entering the road in August powered solely by batteries, official figures have confirmed.

 

EV sales EXCEED government targets for the first time - but it comes amidst claims manufacturers are rationing petrol car availability to avoid fines (msn.com)

 

 

 

"Government targets" being the operative word.

 

People are being forced into it by government policy. Tax breaks on EV. Car makers limiting ICE deliveries to avoid fines. If you limit supply of one product, purchases of the alternative tend to grow. Many stories in the UK of dealers being unable to keep petrol cars on the forecourt for more than a day or two, but EV's are always available.

 

The UK government is manipulating the market.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

"Government targets" being the operative word.

 

People are being forced into it by government policy. Tax breaks on EV. Car makers limiting ICE deliveries to avoid fines. If you limit supply of one product, purchases of the alternative tend to grow. Many stories in the UK of dealers being unable to keep petrol cars on the forecourt for more than a day or two, but EV's are always available.

 

The UK government is manipulating the market.

 

Many governments have set targets, they will all use the stick or the carrot, maybe both.

 

Customers like them because they provide a superior driving experience.