Condo Irregularities ?

[Gussie]

I have been looking to purchase a condo in Thailand for some  time and finally found one that seemed to tick all the boxes regarding area , cost and size.

While doing due diligence regarding the management of the complex I found out that there is no Condominium Committee but a management company (appointed by the developer) that looks after the building maintenance and the common areas, pool ,gardens etc.  I asked to see the monthly accounts and was told that this was not possible and that they had no Juristic Code that they could give me .

Obviously alarm bells are ringing !!

I am wondering if this is a common occurrence in condo developments in Thailand and wither such a structure even complies with the Condominium act  of Thailand.

Many thanks in advance for any insight that more experienced members may have of this or similar scenarios . 

[Tom H]

Be sure that there is a conflict of interest:).

[soi3eddie]

Doesn't sound right to me. What does your lawyer say? 

 

[Yellowtail]

Who is selling the condo? Why not get it from them? 

[warrima]

Unfortunately this is the way it is in our condo now. The developer retains over 50% of the units and rents them out as serviced apartments. The few times we have had meetings the developer uses proxies to ensure all his votes count. We (as in the co-owners) are lucky if we get half our votes. Lots of tricks like holding the meeting on a thursday or other random mid week day (when everyone is working) and arranging it at very very short notice. Long story short we have a juristic manager who is the developers gf and there is sod all we can do............we've tried. 

[Jingthing]

It's very common in newer buildings. Its definitely a major red flag in older buildings.

 

That said major corruption is not rare here regardless.

[steven100]

ask your lawyer ....

[Gussie]

Many thanks to all those that have taken the trouble to comment. 

I have not asked a lawyer yet about the condominium structure and unwillingness to disclose what I would consider fairly basic information.

Since posting earlier today I have spoken to the owner of an apartment who says that there has never been any attempt to set up a committee and that no annual or monthly figures have ever been made available. The developer still owns more than half of the units and the majority of the foreign owners only fly in for a couple of weeks or a month and so have no real inclination to get involved.

I know the developer and management company work together on a number of projects but I find the lack of information quite worrying. If everything is correct and financially sound then surely they would want to  disclose this information ?

[warrima]

15 minutes ago, Gussie said:

If everything is correct and financially sound then surely they would want to  disclose this information ?

The answer is in your question. Everything likely isn't correct. In our case the entire sinking fund was gone and a full year of common fees misappropriated.  

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, warrima said:

The answer is in your question. Everything likely isn't correct. In our case the entire sinking fund was gone and a full year of common fees misappropriated.  

Can't you refuse to pay common fees unless they publish some form of accounts or cashflow? otherwise it could be going straight to the developers bank account

[LarrySR]

7 minutes ago, warrima said:

The answer is in your question. Everything likely isn't correct. In our case the entire sinking fund was gone and a full year of common fees misappropriated.  

Was that The Lake Green Condo by any chance?

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, warrima said:

Unfortunately this is the way it is in our condo now. The developer retains over 50% of the units and rents them out as serviced apartments. The few times we have had meetings the developer uses proxies to ensure all his votes count. We (as in the co-owners) are lucky if we get half our votes. Lots of tricks like holding the meeting on a thursday or other random mid week day (when everyone is working) and arranging it at very very short notice. Long story short we have a juristic manager who is the developers gf and there is sod all we can do............we've tried. 

it's the way it is in Thailand.... one of my good friends own some condo units and has exactly the same problem, builder/ developer/management and juristic all by the same person and they always have enough votes to do as they please and yet they told my friend not to rent on a daily basis but they do

[Mavideol]

35 minutes ago, Gussie said:

Many thanks to all those that have taken the trouble to comment. 

I have not asked a lawyer yet about the condominium structure and unwillingness to disclose what I would consider fairly basic information.

Since posting earlier today I have spoken to the owner of an apartment who says that there has never been any attempt to set up a committee and that no annual or monthly figures have ever been made available. The developer still owns more than half of the units and the majority of the foreign owners only fly in for a couple of weeks or a month and so have no real inclination to get involved.

I know the developer and management company work together on a number of projects but I find the lack of information quite worrying. If everything is correct and financially sound then surely they would want to  disclose this information ?

are you new in Thailand  555

[Hummin]

In my eyes so many things that outweighs the pros by owning your own apartment to live in, and one is the management and also condo owners who do not pay their meintenence fee, and after covid, my best guess is that many have been falling behind. 2. The neighbours and what nationality the majority have.

 

[warrima]

Long story in our case. Been going on for years. It kicked off as we had a big bill to pay (repairing the elevators). They claimed there wasn't the funds to cover the cost and asked for additional money from co owners. That's when we started digging and realized the developer wasn't paying any common fee on their 50% rooms and couldn't accurately tell us where all the money had gone. Eventually they produced an account with things like 45k month gardening expenses (there's a hedge along the driveway and a few potted plants) and a new tuk tuk for 450k (never seen a new tuk tuk - only the old one tarted up with a lick of paint).

It went to court and the developer essentially said there was a fire or flood in the store room and destroyed all records. That was accepted and the judge said ok - hold a meeting in one year and elect a new committee. Back to square. That was a few years ago. 

[Jingthing]

Its my impression that horror stories involving mysterious money vanishing are very common here.

Your condo is worthless if the building its in falls apart.

Special assessments. Be afraid.

[fredscats]

34 minutes ago, Hummin said:

In my eyes so many things that outweighs the pros by owning your own apartment to live in, and one is the management and also condo owners who do not pay their meintenence fee, and after covid, my best guess is that many have been falling behind. 2. The neighbours and what nationality the majority have.

 

Up for auction non paying condo owners,...see who comes in    ugh

[warrima]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Can't you refuse to pay common fees unless they publish some form of accounts or cashflow? otherwise it could be going straight to the developers bank account

If your in control of the accounts its easy to cook the books. I assume the auditors sign off on them if its made worth their while. As a homeowner i have to live in the place. Don't pay the common fee and they cut the water, cancel your access card etc. 

[scubascuba3]

11 hours ago, warrima said:

If your in control of the accounts its easy to cook the books. I assume the auditors sign off on them if its made worth their while. As a homeowner i have to live in the place. Don't pay the common fee and they cut the water, cancel your access card etc. 

Op was talking about no accounts available, if already available that's a different problem

[warrima]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Op was talking about no accounts available, if already available that's a different problem

Ours were not available either. We had to push like crazy to get anything looking like a finance statement. When it did appear it was utter BS with made up expenses. That's when we hired a lawyer and took it to court to force them to show previous years statements. Unfortunately for us these had been damaged in a flood (or fire i cant remember which excuse they used as it was about 5 years ago)

[Peterw42]

People need to be aware of the following clause in the Condo Act :

 

Section 47 A joint owner may give a written proxy to the other person in casting the vote on his behalf, however, a proxy shall not be permitted to receive such written proxy to cast the votes in a meeting in excess of three units.

The following persons shall be prohibited to receive a proxy to cast the vote on behalf of a joint owner:

1. Board members and their spouses,
2. The Manager and his spouse,
3. Staffs or employees of the condominium corporate or contractors of the condominium corporate,
4. Staffs or employees of the Manager in the case where the Manage is a corporate.

Management companies, condo employees etc cant hold and cast proxy votes.

A developer has to have a physical person holding the proxies at the meeting to vote. One person can hold 3 proxies, So to cast 100 proxy votes would require 33 physical people at a meeting.

 

[Pravda]

21 hours ago, Gussie said:

time and finally found one that seemed to tick all the boxes

 

21 hours ago, Gussie said:

Obviously alarm bells are ringing !!

 

So it doesn't tick all the boxes then?

 

A word of advice. Go around major developments built 5-10 years ago and that's pretty much how your condo is going to look like. 

 

My condo in Toronto went up 40% since pandemic and will realistically go up another 60% by 2025 as there is a total lack of supply as millions of immigrants are arriving to Canada with full ownership rights (unlike Thailand) and need a place to live. On the flip side my wife's condo in Bangkok is down 25% in value since she bought 11 years ago. Next year there will even be a BTS stop next to her place and still nada.

 

You don't say where you are buying, but I'd strongly recommend older projects with bigger rooms. I was looking to buy at Four Wings residences (condo attached next to a hotel of the same name). Seems to be built like a tank. Maintenance is soso, but building definitely in better shape than many cookie cutter boxes that pass as luxury condos. 

 

Perfect example of a cookie cutter place falling apart is this place built 10 years ago. I go there often as family mart has a cheap copy machine. Looks like a 3rd world ghetto dump 

 

 

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/aspire-rama-4-sbknvt

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Pravda

[scubascuba3]

2 hours ago, warrima said:

Ours were not available either. We had to push like crazy to get anything looking like a finance statement. When it did appear it was utter BS with made up expenses. That's when we hired a lawyer and took it to court to force them to show previous years statements. Unfortunately for us these had been damaged in a flood (or fire i cant remember which excuse they used as it was about 5 years ago)

What due diligence did you do before you bought? not enough it appears. Presumably any lawyer involved in the purchase did zilch also

Edited February 8, 2022 by scubascuba3

[BritManToo]

22 hours ago, Gussie said:

Many thanks in advance for any insight that more experienced members may have of this or similar scenarios . 

Advice ....... buy somewhere else.

This block is only suitable for renters.

Edited February 8, 2022 by BritManToo

[warrima]

8 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

What due diligence did you do before you bought? not enough it appears. Presumably any lawyer involved in the purchase did zilch also

It was bought as a new project and was run (somewhat correctly) for about 2 or 3 years. Then the management company was changed by the developer to their own choice, the annual meetings gradually stopped, the accounts stopped being posted, etc etc. Like i said $hit hit the fan when they started asking additional money and we started questioning the expenses. This is all across a period of about 13 years to present

[LarrySR]

On 2/7/2022 at 5:15 PM, warrima said:

Long story in our case. Been going on for years. It kicked off as we had a big bill to pay (repairing the elevators). They claimed there wasn't the funds to cover the cost and asked for additional money from co owners. That's when we started digging and realized the developer wasn't paying any common fee on their 50% rooms and couldn't accurately tell us where all the money had gone. Eventually they produced an account with things like 45k month gardening expenses (there's a hedge along the driveway and a few potted plants) and a new tuk tuk for 450k (never seen a new tuk tuk - only the old one tarted up with a lick of paint).

It went to court and the developer essentially said there was a fire or flood in the store room and destroyed all records. That was accepted and the judge said ok - hold a meeting in one year and elect a new committee. Back to square. That was a few years ago. 

The developers put someone with a 'big name' on the board and the attorneys know not to mess with them.

Of course the lawyers will string along their client that is making a complaint for fun and profit.

[LarrySR]

20 hours ago, Pravda said:

 

 

So it doesn't tick all the boxes then?

 

A word of advice. Go around major developments built 5-10 years ago and that's pretty much how your condo is going to look like. 

 

My condo in Toronto went up 40% since pandemic and will realistically go up another 60% by 2025 as there is a total lack of supply as millions of immigrants are arriving to Canada with full ownership rights (unlike Thailand) and need a place to live. On the flip side my wife's condo in Bangkok is down 25% in value since she bought 11 years ago. Next year there will even be a BTS stop next to her place and still nada.

 

You don't say where you are buying, but I'd strongly recommend older projects with bigger rooms. I was looking to buy at Four Wings residences (condo attached next to a hotel of the same name). Seems to be built like a tank. Maintenance is soso, but building definitely in better shape than many cookie cutter boxes that pass as luxury condos. 

 

Perfect example of a cookie cutter place falling apart is this place built 10 years ago. I go there often as family mart has a cheap copy machine. Looks like a 3rd world ghetto dump 

 

 

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/aspire-rama-4-sbknvt

 

 

 

 

 

Last year a 30 year old Florida condo collapsed crushing around 100 residents in the middle of the night. As it turn out the reinforced concrete structure had

1. Design flaws.

2. Crooked city officials in bed with developers.

3. Questionable oversight & inspections during construction.

4. Money saving shortcuts & construction flaws.

5. Poor/lazy maintenance.

6. Incompetent condo board of directors.

7. Greedy off sight owners not willing to spend on improvements.

 

Over the last 30 years, water attacked the concrete and rebar, weakening the support columns.

How many years will a concrete high-rise built in SE Asia remain habitable? 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by LarrySR

[warrima]

1 hour ago, LarrySR said:

The developers put someone with a 'big name' on the board and the attorneys know not to mess with them.

Of course the lawyers will string along their client that is making a complaint for fun and profit.

Yes agree. I didnt attend the case myself but others that did said our lawyer essentially rolled over, didn't question anything. Either she got threatened or paid off - i don't know.  

[Henryford]

Run Forest run.

 

Don't touch any condo that is run like this.

 

My condo is run by a Committee, mostly farangs, who vet all expenditures and outstanding common fees. Any long term outstanding fees are taken to Court, including the developer's unsold units. We insist on monthly cash flow statements which are checked and of course annual accounts, also checked against previous budgets. I would view anything less as unacceptable.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Henryford

[HAPPYNUFF]

Why buy a condo in Thailand, with all the  future problems you will undoubtedly experience.     Just rent, if   problems arise later, move on.