Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I don't do them,more a mix of BBC,Aljazeera and Fox news.

Just over 400 civilians killed and refugee numbers but nothing more.

400 civilians is a huge amount but 2,000 is even more and a nightmare, it depends which reports you read

 

From one of your preferred BBC

That number includes including 406 people killed and 801 injured - but figures "are likely to be much higher" says Liz Throssell, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

 

Reuters

More than 2,000 Ukrainian civilians killed during Russian invasion - Ukrainian emergency service

 

[sammieuk1]

Good to see they got this filth out of the country Hope the demise wasn't to quick and the horizontal departures continues expediently ????

[Bkk Brian]

BBC with hit shot videos in article

 

Ukraine's military has released several videos showing Russian helicopters being shot down by surface-to-air missiles.

One, from last week, shows a Russian helicopter flying low, just above the tree line - in the hope of avoiding what's about to happen next. Tracking its path is the smoking trail of a surface-to-air missile. In a matter of seconds the missile has found its target.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60655349

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by metisdead
14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Virt]

32 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

The Russians finding it cold are you serious.

You assume wrong if you think all Russians live in places where it's cold all the time, and therefore used to the cold.

Some parts of Russia are on the same latitude as Nice, and if you live there -20 Celsius sure as hell will be feel cold.

 

Especially if you are sitting in a convoy that has not moved for 4 days and maybe are out of fuel and food, 

while staying inside a cold metal coffin.

 

So yeah i think some Russians in that convoy will find -20 Celcius cold.

[Virt]

Seems like US are going to ban Russian oil today.

 

Will be interesting to see what the politicians will do here in Europe.

[farmerjo]

20 minutes ago, Virt said:

Seems like US are going to ban Russian oil today.

 

Will be interesting to see what the politicians will do here in Europe.

That was my point of getting Biden and his administration out of the deal.

The EU are the ones who will suffer.

Ukraine is already getting in over its head with world bank loans,how far will the bank be prepared to go.

[Jingthing]

44 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

That was my point of getting Biden and his administration out of the deal.

The EU are the ones who will suffer.

Ukraine is already getting in over its head with world bank loans,how far will the bank be prepared to go.

Very far.

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, farmerjo said:

That was my point of getting Biden and his administration out of the deal.

The EU are the ones who will suffer.

Ukraine is already getting in over its head with world bank loans,how far will the bank be prepared to go.

Since the US has major input into what the World Bank does, and because the civilized world is united in support of Ukraine, the answer is 'as far a Ukraine needs to go'.

 

russia, on the other hand, would get its tin cups filled with spit.

 

The world is also likely to give Qatar whatever help and cooperation it needs to export more of its natgas. Perhaps the world will even get rid of assad in Syria and put a beautiful gas pipeline from Qatar all the way to the Med, able to serve all of Europes needs for the next 50 years.

[Walker88]

7 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I don't do them,more a mix of BBC,Aljazeera and Fox news.

Just over 400 civilians killed and refugee numbers but nothing more.

It's not even close to 400. Much higher.

 

If you are implying that 400 isn't so bad, then your cold calculation is rather uncivilized.

 

Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives with the same concerns, hopes, and dreams as anyone anywhere. Then a little guy who suffers from what the impish and economical Universe did when handing out male 'junk', and who is the epitome of Napoleon Complex, pretended he's some great empire builder and ordered a vicious attack against a peaceful people. The little guy himself is a blithering coward, fearing even to sit within 10 meters of his closest advisers. So weak and insecure he is that a few years ago he sent GRU thugs to blow the head off of Anna Politkovskaya, because she wrote articles critical of him.

 

Ukraine is now in ruins, likely thousands are dead and upwards of two million have sought safety in neighboring countries.

 

All for what?  Because little vlad has a small chimbo.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Walker88

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, Virt said:

Seems like US are going to ban Russian oil today.

 

Will be interesting to see what the politicians will do here in Europe.

United States and United Kingdom announce ban on Russian oil imports over Ukraine invasion

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-09/us-uk-ban-russian-oil-products-over-ukraine-invasion/100893952

[metisdead]

A post with a chart that was copy and pasted from some site without providing a link to the source of information has been removed.

[Hummin]

Iconic U.S. brands Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonald’s and Starbucks suspend business in Russia

 

 

This will be a symbolic wake up call for most Russians who remember the “cold war”!
 

First time I came to Russia, it was the same day the very first Mc Donalds openend in Moscow, and I remember the line of the que that must been 500m or more when we passed by. I also remember how Gray, dirty and how little they had in the shops of variety of food and basic things. 
 

Actually the elderly people missed Stalin at that point, not so different most elderly Chinese in the villages in China still remembered and cultivated the memory of Mao when I visited in early 2000.
 

How the russians will react to the closure of these major western brands will be a interesting study to see how influencial they are now. American brands represented freedom back then, and even Rambo was a symbolic freedom fighter for the young russians. 

 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/08/coca-cola-follows-mcdonalds-starbucks-in-suspending-business-in-russia.html

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Hummin

[Mr Derek]

8 hours ago, Walker88 said:

It's not even close to 400. Much higher.

 

If you are implying that 400 isn't so bad, then your cold calculation is rather uncivilized.

 

Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives with the same concerns, hopes, and dreams as anyone anywhere. Then a little guy who suffers from what the impish and economical Universe did when handing out male 'junk', and who is the epitome of Napoleon Complex, pretended he's some great empire builder and ordered a vicious attack against a peaceful people. The little guy himself is a blithering coward, fearing even to sit within 10 meters of his closest advisers. So weak and insecure he is that a few years ago he sent GRU thugs to blow the head off of Anna Politkovskaya, because she wrote articles critical of him.

 

Ukraine is now in ruins, likely thousands are dead and upwards of two million have sought safety in neighboring countries.

 

All for what?  Because little vlad has a small chimbo.

"Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives"

 

What?! Now I understand why people in this forum are siding with Ukraine. Nobody has a clue. Where do you get "peaceful Ukraine harming no one"...? Read on...

 

For nearly a decade, Ukraine has been waging a war of oppression against two Russian-majority provinces in the east. Those people, who don't want to be part of Ukraine, are being brutally quashed (look up "Azov Regiment"). Thousands have died in this conflict, which is by definition anti-democratic and therefore authoritarian, yet I don't see much reference to it in this thread. I guess it's one of those 'inconvenient truths' that everyone chooses to ignore because they've been fed the line in western media that Ukrainians = victims.

 

Information about the Donbass conflict is suppressed in the west because the west wants to keep Russia as a notional enemy according to Orwellian principles (it's necessary to have an enemy to distract from problems at home). Seems that everyone has fallen for it. The situation in Donbass needs resolving. If you don't pull a tooth that needs pulling you're in for a needless world of pain. Make no mistake, Russia has the moral high ground in trying to resolve this, but I guess you'll need to think for yourself to see it. Opinions on this thread that don't discuss the Donbass Russians are completely failing to address the issue.

 

As if the Donbass issue wasn't enough evidence of Ukrainian aggression, in November last year Ukraine signed a concord with NATO giving them the right to seek membership. A massive mistake by Ukraine and the west as it terrorizes Russia beyond acceptibility and was the last straw for them. After years of being vilified and threatened by everyone for no reason, even after the Cold War ended, they have given up on a diplomatic resolution and are dealing with the issue forcibly. If you treat someone like an enemy long enough, they'll become one. Nice going western diplomacy! They have basically caused this war with their blundering interference.

 

A humanitarian appeal: the more you support Ukraine in this, the more you are helping to drag on the agony for this region, and particularly for the Donbass Russians. The west haven't a clue as to how to deal with that - they are only making it worse, as they always do (cf Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya...). Let Russia resolve this once and for all, and only then can the region live peaceably. Yes, Ukraine will be a bit smaller on the map, but so what?

 

 

 

 

 

[Hummin]

2 hours ago, Mr Derek said:

"Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives"

 

What?! Now I understand why people in this forum are siding with Ukraine. Nobody has a clue. Where do you get "peaceful Ukraine harming no one"...? Read on...

 

For nearly a decade, Ukraine has been waging a war of oppression against two Russian-majority provinces in the east. Those people, who don't want to be part of Ukraine, are being brutally quashed (look up "Azov Regiment"). Thousands have died in this conflict, which is by definition anti-democratic and therefore authoritarian, yet I don't see much reference to it in this thread. I guess it's one of those 'inconvenient truths' that everyone chooses to ignore because they've been fed the line in western media that Ukrainians = victims.

 

Information about the Donbass conflict is suppressed in the west because the west wants to keep Russia as a notional enemy according to Orwellian principles (it's necessary to have an enemy to distract from problems at home). Seems that everyone has fallen for it. The situation in Donbass needs resolving. If you don't pull a tooth that needs pulling you're in for a needless world of pain. Make no mistake, Russia has the moral high ground in trying to resolve this, but I guess you'll need to think for yourself to see it. Opinions on this thread that don't discuss the Donbass Russians are completely failing to address the issue.

 

As if the Donbass issue wasn't enough evidence of Ukrainian aggression, in November last year Ukraine signed a concord with NATO giving them the right to seek membership. A massive mistake by Ukraine and the west as it terrorizes Russia beyond acceptibility and was the last straw for them. After years of being vilified and threatened by everyone for no reason, even after the Cold War ended, they have given up on a diplomatic resolution and are dealing with the issue forcibly. If you treat someone like an enemy long enough, they'll become one. Nice going western diplomacy! They have basically caused this war with their blundering interference.

 

A humanitarian appeal: the more you support Ukraine in this, the more you are helping to drag on the agony for this region, and particularly for the Donbass Russians. The west haven't a clue as to how to deal with that - they are only making it worse, as they always do (cf Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya...). Let Russia resolve this once and for all, and only then can the region live peaceably. Yes, Ukraine will be a bit smaller on the map, but so what?

 

 

 

 

 

Dont forget most Ukraines are innocent in whats happening now, and they are just part of the war game. However not a popular stand that there have been a chain of reactions leading to this tragegy we see now, and it doesnt excuse Putin at all for what he is doing.
 

 

«

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

 

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.»

 

read more here

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

 

source the guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/about

 

[Kwasaki]

12 hours ago, Virt said:

You assume wrong if you think all Russians live in places where it's cold all the time, and therefore used to the cold.

Some parts of Russia are on the same latitude as Nice, and if you live there -20 Celsius sure as hell will be feel cold.

 

Especially if you are sitting in a convoy that has not moved for 4 days and maybe are out of fuel and food, 

while staying inside a cold metal coffin.

 

So yeah i think some Russians in that convoy will find -20 Celcius cold.

Depends whether there young conscripts or vet soldiers and nobody seems to know what the real situation it because of the propergander and exaggeration on both sides.

[Kwasaki]

18 minutes ago, Mr Derek said:

"Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives"

 

What?! Now I understand why people in this forum are siding with Ukraine. Nobody has a clue. Where do you get "peaceful Ukraine harming no one"...? Read on...

 

For nearly a decade, Ukraine has been waging a war of oppression against two Russian-majority provinces in the east. Those people, who don't want to be part of Ukraine, are being brutally quashed (look up "Azov Regiment"). Thousands have died in this conflict, which is by definition anti-democratic and therefore authoritarian, yet I don't see much reference to it in this thread. I guess it's one of those 'inconvenient truths' that everyone chooses to ignore because they've been fed the line in western media that Ukrainians = victims.

 

Information about the Donbass conflict is suppressed in the west because the west wants to keep Russia as a notional enemy according to Orwellian principles (it's necessary to have an enemy to distract from problems at home). Seems that everyone has fallen for it. The situation in Donbass needs resolving. If you don't pull a tooth that needs pulling you're in for a needless world of pain. Make no mistake, Russia has the moral high ground in trying to resolve this, but I guess you'll need to think for yourself to see it. Opinions on this thread that don't discuss the Donbass Russians are completely failing to address the issue.

 

As if the Donbass issue wasn't enough evidence of Ukrainian aggression, in November last year Ukraine signed a concord with NATO giving them the right to seek membership. A massive mistake by Ukraine and the west as it terrorizes Russia beyond acceptibility and was the last straw for them. After years of being vilified and threatened by everyone for no reason, even after the Cold War ended, they have given up on a diplomatic resolution and are dealing with the issue forcibly. If you treat someone like an enemy long enough, they'll become one. Nice going western diplomacy! They have basically caused this war with their blundering interference.

 

A humanitarian appeal: the more you support Ukraine in this, the more you are helping to drag on the agony for this region, and particularly for the Donbass Russians. The west haven't a clue as to how to deal with that - they are only making it worse, as they always do (cf Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya...). Let Russia resolve this once and for all, and only then can the region live peaceably. Yes, Ukraine will be a bit smaller on the map, but so what?

Thanks for posting a lot of past and news gets swept under the carpet when some actions in the present starts and then emotions cloud the truth. 

 

Someone close to Putin has appeal to him to cease and negotiate or take him out. 

[Bkk Brian]

W.P.

Up to 4,000 Russian soldiers may have died in Ukraine, U.S. general says

Lt. Gen. Scott D. Berrier, director the Defense Intelligence Agency, told House lawmakers that the best estimate is between 2,000 and 4,000 Russian fatalities. But he said he had low confidence in that figure, citing “some intelligence sources, but also open source” information. The general’s reference to open source information probably refers to assessments made public by credible outside groups monitoring the conflict.

By comparison, the entire 20-year U.S. war in Afghanistan resulted in 2,461 American fatalities, according to Pentagon figures.

 

Source

This is the first war in human history when the #Russian army refuses to take its #dead back, says the #Ukrainian Interior Ministry.

 

Source

Russian losses- 902 vehicles, including 143 tanks and 272 A/IFVs Ukrainian losses- 272 vehicles, including 46 tanks and 89 A/IFVs This isn’t a complete list but serves as an accurate, independent baseline.

[Bkk Brian]

46 minutes ago, Mr Derek said:

"Two weeks ago a peaceful Ukraine was harming no one, and folks were going about their quiet lives"

 

What?! Now I understand why people in this forum are siding with Ukraine. Nobody has a clue. Where do you get "peaceful Ukraine harming no one"...? Read on...

 

For nearly a decade, Ukraine has been waging a war of oppression against two Russian-majority provinces in the east. Those people, who don't want to be part of Ukraine, are being brutally quashed (look up "Azov Regiment"). Thousands have died in this conflict, which is by definition anti-democratic and therefore authoritarian, yet I don't see much reference to it in this thread. I guess it's one of those 'inconvenient truths' that everyone chooses to ignore because they've been fed the line in western media that Ukrainians = victims.

 

Information about the Donbass conflict is suppressed in the west because the west wants to keep Russia as a notional enemy according to Orwellian principles (it's necessary to have an enemy to distract from problems at home). Seems that everyone has fallen for it. The situation in Donbass needs resolving. If you don't pull a tooth that needs pulling you're in for a needless world of pain. Make no mistake, Russia has the moral high ground in trying to resolve this, but I guess you'll need to think for yourself to see it. Opinions on this thread that don't discuss the Donbass Russians are completely failing to address the issue.

 

As if the Donbass issue wasn't enough evidence of Ukrainian aggression, in November last year Ukraine signed a concord with NATO giving them the right to seek membership. A massive mistake by Ukraine and the west as it terrorizes Russia beyond acceptibility and was the last straw for them. After years of being vilified and threatened by everyone for no reason, even after the Cold War ended, they have given up on a diplomatic resolution and are dealing with the issue forcibly. If you treat someone like an enemy long enough, they'll become one. Nice going western diplomacy! They have basically caused this war with their blundering interference.

 

A humanitarian appeal: the more you support Ukraine in this, the more you are helping to drag on the agony for this region, and particularly for the Donbass Russians. The west haven't a clue as to how to deal with that - they are only making it worse, as they always do (cf Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya...). Let Russia resolve this once and for all, and only then can the region live peaceably. Yes, Ukraine will be a bit smaller on the map, but so what?

 

Its a pity Russia did not stick to the deal signed in 1994 that if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons then it would never attack it. Ukraine did that but Russia...............invasion

 

"The unfolding invasion of Ukraine will have far-reaching repercussions that extend way beyond a breach of international law and a violation of the country’s territorial integrity. As American international relations expert David Yost notes, Russia’s actions will weaken the credibility of major power security assurances, undermine the nuclear nonproliferation regime and dampen prospects for future disarmament.

Putin’s decision to invade is in direct violation of the Budapest Memorandum, a key instrument assuring Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity."

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-what-is-the-budapest-memorandum-and-why-has-russias-invasion-torn-it-up-178184

 

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its a pity Russia did not stick to the deal signed in 1994 that if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons then it would never attack it. Ukraine did that but Russia...............invasion

 

"The unfolding invasion of Ukraine will have far-reaching repercussions that extend way beyond a breach of international law and a violation of the country’s territorial integrity. As American international relations expert David Yost notes, Russia’s actions will weaken the credibility of major power security assurances, undermine the nuclear nonproliferation regime and dampen prospects for future disarmament.

Putin’s decision to invade is in direct violation of the Budapest Memorandum, a key instrument assuring Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity."

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-what-is-the-budapest-memorandum-and-why-has-russias-invasion-torn-it-up-178184

 

I would say fair call but it goes much deeper and more complicated than an agreement.

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I would say fair call but it goes much deeper and more complicated than an agreement.

Even the proof is there, and openly shared for years, they will not believe what's have been going on! Chain of reactions doesn't start by itself, it needs a push! 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I would say fair call but it goes much deeper and more complicated than an agreement.

Agreed, its much deeper but does show that any future agreements are also subject to uncertainty. If any happen.

 

There's lots of history to this from all sides but the reality is dealing with the present aggression going on now and not keep focusing on the "what about"

 

I see a lot of posts about the past and bringing in excuses for whats going on now. What is going on now is an unprovoked attack by a dictator that needs to stop.

[Bkk Brian]

Ukraine v. Russian Federation: International Court of Justice starts hearings

 

On March 7, or the 12th day of Russia’s all-out war against Ukraine, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) held the first hearing in the “Ukraine v. Russian Federation” case.

One of the six United Nations principal courts based in The Hague, ICJ heard Ukraine’s request for indication of provisional measures against Russia in the proceedings instituted by Ukraine on Feb. 26. 

Though Russia refused to participate in the ICJ hearings in its letter of March 5, the Court will proceed without hearing Russia’s arguments.

 

https://kyivindependent.com/national/ukraine-v-russian-federation-international-court-of-justice-starts-hearings/

[Virt]

It's hard to see where both sides could meet at the peace talks.

 

How about this one.

 

Russia withdraw all troops.

Crimea is accepted as Russian territory.

Russia pay for the reconstruction of all they destroyed.

Russia pay for all the destroyed military hardware.

Russia reimburse the families to the killed Ukrainians.

Ukraine can join NATO but can't have any patriot missile systems on the ground or other similar system as well as nuclear warheads or any NATO troops.

The join NATO only as security for the future in case if Russia cross the border again or attack them from distance.

The separatist areas in Ukraine will be demilitarized and the population living there and which were registered there before the invasion started, will have to vote if they want to stay under Ukrainian or Russian control.

 

Would that be a viable solution.

Crimea is already lost.

The separatist areas has been a conflict area for quite some time, so maybe time to find a solution.

Maybe if just one of the areas vote to stay under Russian control, the other pro Russians can move there and the Ukrainians move to to the other two?

As for NATO.

NATO really don't cause a danger for Russia as long as Russia don't attack anyone, but maybe Putin could agree if Ukraine joined NATO on paper but we're not allowed troops or missile systems.

 

Just a thought here at 5am.

Maybe i should go to sleep again...

[Kwasaki]

15 minutes ago, Virt said:

It's hard to see where both sides could meet at the peace talks.

 

How about this one.

 

Russia withdraw all troops.

Crimea is accepted as Russian territory.

Russia pay for the reconstruction of all they destroyed.

Russia pay for all the destroyed military hardware.

Russia reimburse the families to the killed Ukrainians.

Ukraine can join NATO but can't have any patriot missile systems on the ground or other similar system as well as nuclear warheads or any NATO troops.

The join NATO only as security for the future in case if Russia cross the border again or attack them from distance.

The separatist areas in Ukraine will be demilitarized and the population living there and which were registered there before the invasion started, will have to vote if they want to stay under Ukrainian or Russian control.

 

Would that be a viable solution.

Crimea is already lost.

The separatist areas has been a conflict area for quite some time, so maybe time to find a solution.

Maybe if just one of the areas vote to stay under Russian control, the other pro Russians can move there and the Ukrainians move to to the other two?

As for NATO.

NATO really don't cause a danger for Russia as long as Russia don't attack anyone, but maybe Putin could agree if Ukraine joined NATO on paper but we're not allowed troops or missile systems.

 

Just a thought here at 5am.

Maybe i should go to sleep again...

With respect you would not be a good negotiator. ????

[Hummin]

36 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Agreed, its much deeper but does show that any future agreements are also subject to uncertainty. If any happen.

 

There's lots of history to this from all sides but the reality is dealing with the present aggression going on now and not keep focusing on the "what about"

 

I see a lot of posts about the past and bringing in excuses for whats going on now. What is going on now is an unprovoked attack by a dictator that needs to stop.

You see we can agree, and we can also appreciate our debate here even we have different approaches and also sometimes see things in a different light, we do not forget what's really going on. 

 

Some reports says Putin have days and weeks before he have to give up, while Us embassor and council says this will be a long war.

 

What if he have to give up? Is it more likely he push the button and use nuclear weapon?

 

100 average nuclear warheads can change the world to an very very unpleasant place to live, and many millions of not billions will die.

 

Then we can talk about an unchangeable inviromental crisis. 

 

It is more than just Ukraine independence it is about! 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

With respect you would not be a good negotiator. ????

At least he wouldn’t capitulate in the face of an illegal and unprovoked invasion.

[Hummin]

21 minutes ago, Virt said:

It's hard to see where both sides could meet at the peace talks.

 

How about this one.

 

Russia withdraw all troops.

Crimea is accepted as Russian territory.

Russia pay for the reconstruction of all they destroyed.

Russia pay for all the destroyed military hardware.

Russia reimburse the families to the killed Ukrainians.

Ukraine can join NATO but can't have any patriot missile systems on the ground or other similar system as well as nuclear warheads or any NATO troops.

The join NATO only as security for the future in case if Russia cross the border again or attack them from distance.

The separatist areas in Ukraine will be demilitarized and the population living there and which were registered there before the invasion started, will have to vote if they want to stay under Ukrainian or Russian control.

 

Would that be a viable solution.

Crimea is already lost.

The separatist areas has been a conflict area for quite some time, so maybe time to find a solution.

Maybe if just one of the areas vote to stay under Russian control, the other pro Russians can move there and the Ukrainians move to to the other two?

As for NATO.

NATO really don't cause a danger for Russia as long as Russia don't attack anyone, but maybe Putin could agree if Ukraine joined NATO on paper but we're not allowed troops or missile systems.

 

Just a thought here at 5am.

Maybe i should go to sleep again...

At same time offer Putin a life long retirement at St Helena all included! 

[Virt]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

With respect you would not be a good negotiator. ????

Probably not, but what do you suggest.

 

The last couple of days shows this is spiralling out of control and if we need a solution at the table, they need to find one fast.

 

We're getting closer and closer to a situation the whole world does not need.

[steven100]

Latest ...

WASHINGTON-Wed, March 9, 2022, 4:21 AM (Reuters) -The United States rejected a surprise offer by NATO ally Poland on Tuesday to transfer its Russian-made MiG-29 fighter jets to a U.S. base in Germany as a way to replenish Ukraine's air force in its defense against invading Russian forces.

The United States has sought to speed weapons deliveries to Ukraine. But the prospect of flying combat aircraft from NATO territory into the war zone "raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance," the Pentagon said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-surprised-polands-decision-fighter-212131580.html

 

[farmerjo]

8 minutes ago, Virt said:

Probably not, but what do you suggest.

 

The last couple of days shows this is spiralling out of control and if we need a solution at the table, they need to find one fast.

 

We're getting closer and closer to a situation the whole world does not need.

Only Zenelskyy can decide when this will end.

Russia won't stop and NATO are happy to keep feeding Ukraine weapons as long as he wants them.