Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Mavideol]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I posted the link above

rubbish post and rubbish answer, you have nothing to support your claim, investigation under way Ukraine appears to have a video showing the missile over Poland, I said Claim, now they have to supply it to the investigation, then we will know who or what happen, for now let's stop speculations

[Mavideol]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ukraine and western allies at odds over missile that exploded in Poland

 

 

President Zelenskyy disputes view of Nato, Warsaw and US that weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces

 

A disagreement broke out on Wednesday between Ukraine and its western allies over who launched a missile that exploded in Poland, with Nato, Warsaw and the US saying the weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces during a Russian attack. Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy disputed this, insisting he had “no doubt” the missile that landed in the village of Przewodów near the Ukrainian border on Tuesday afternoon, killing two people, was not a Ukrainian missile.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d417ea8f-62ee-4bb8-966b-a85a98fc6b3a

 

more speculations... wait for the investigation to collect all evidence

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ukraine and western allies at odds over missile that exploded in Poland

 

 

President Zelenskyy disputes view of Nato, Warsaw and US that weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces

 

A disagreement broke out on Wednesday between Ukraine and its western allies over who launched a missile that exploded in Poland, with Nato, Warsaw and the US saying the weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces during a Russian attack. Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy disputed this, insisting he had “no doubt” the missile that landed in the village of Przewodów near the Ukrainian border on Tuesday afternoon, killing two people, was not a Ukrainian missile.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d417ea8f-62ee-4bb8-966b-a85a98fc6b3a

 

We all know he's currently disputing it but this does not back up your claim:

 

"NATO are furious with Ukraine , because Ukraine are denying firing that missile , NATO fully accept it was an accident , but they are furious about Ukraine's dishonesty."

 

Let me be a little more specific on this claim. You state that "NATO fully accept it was an accident" the facts are that NATO have said its likely. 

 

You state NATO are furious with Ukraine's dishonesty. I see no mention of that anywhere.

 

The investigation is at a preliminary stage, better wait for the conclusion as its still clear that Poland is saying it was a Russian missile however what is not clear if that missile was in the possession of Ukraine as part of their air defense equipment and landed 4 miles into Poland via an accident.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

more speculations... wait for the investigation to collect all evidence

 

Its a unanimous opinion that the rocker was Ukrainian , the only person who says it wasnt Ukrainian is the Ukrainian leader Z

 

 

Missile that hit Poland likely came from Ukraine defences, say Warsaw and Nato

 

Poland says no evidence to suggest missile was launched by Russia – but Kyiv insists ‘it was not our rocket’Ukraine’s air defence was probably responsible for a blast that killed two people in south-eastern Poland, the Polish president has said, 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/16/poland-president-missile-strike-probably-ukrainian-stray

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bali, IndonesiaCNN — 

The leaders of Poland and NATO said the missile that killed two people in Polish territory on Tuesday was likely fired by Ukrainian forces defending their country against a barrage of Russian strikes, and that the incident appeared to be an accident.

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/16/europe/poland-missile-russia-ukraine-investigation-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

Its a unanimous opinion that the rocker was Ukrainian , the only person who says it wasnt Ukrainian is the Ukrainian leader Z

 

 

Missile that hit Poland likely came from Ukraine defences, say Warsaw and Nato

 

Poland says no evidence to suggest missile was launched by Russia – but Kyiv insists ‘it was not our rocket’Ukraine’s air defence was probably responsible for a blast that killed two people in south-eastern Poland, the Polish president has said, 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/16/poland-president-missile-strike-probably-ukrainian-stray

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bali, IndonesiaCNN — 

The leaders of Poland and NATO said the missile that killed two people in Polish territory on Tuesday was likely fired by Ukrainian forces defending their country against a barrage of Russian strikes, and that the incident appeared to be an accident.

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/16/europe/poland-missile-russia-ukraine-investigation-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

This is why there is an investigation and you should wait for it to finish:

 

“There is no indication that this was an intentional attack on Poland. Most likely, it was a Russian-made S-300 rocket,” Duda said in a tweet earlier Wednesday.

Both Russian and Ukrainian forces have used Russian-made munitions during the conflict, including the S-300 surface-to-air missile system, which Kyiv has deployed as part of its air defenses.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/16/europe/poland-missile-russia-ukraine-investigation-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[rudi49jr]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Its a unanimous opinion that the rocker was Ukrainian

Your saying it’s a unanimous opinion doesn’t make it true. You know that, don’t you?

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Your saying it’s a unanimous opinion doesn’t make it true. You know that, don’t you?

If all the experts and people who know about things and people involved all have the same opinion about something then its quite likely to be true 

[LosLobo]

I found this video interesting. 
 

Russia has rockets but no asphalt!

 

But now it hasn't many missiles left!

 

Though it's from Ukraine I suggest that Russia's standard of living and services shown are not overly exaggerated. In the 2000's I was alone with Thailand's new Russian a/consul on a tour of the Golden Triangle, and he told me he was very impressed with Thailand's standard and was quite open about them his own country.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

IMO America has surveillance capability that can probably track every missile fired. The fact Biden said he did not think the missile came from Russia indicates it was probably fired by the Ukrainians defending against incoming missiles.

It obviously would suit the Ukrainian book to have a NATO country hit by a Russian missile.

Hiram Johnson was right when he said truth is the first casualty of war.

[LosLobo]

More missiles today, Russia is bent on destroying Ukraine's infrastructure.

 

 

More strikes have been reported across Ukraine, days after one of Russia's most intense bombardments of the war.

 

"Officials say a gas production facility and a missile factory in Dnipro were among the latest targets and that at least four people died in one area.

In recent weeks, Russia has looked to target key Ukrainian energy infrastructure, following a series of battlefield setbacks.

Moscow has not yet commented on Thursday's alleged attacks"

 

Ukraine war: Gas plant hit in latest Russian strikes - BBC News

[tgw]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If all the experts and people who know about things and people involved all have the same opinion about something then its quite likely to be true 

unless provided access to radar data and the debris, none of these experts is able to differentiate with certainty between a stray Ukrainian air defense missile and a Russian missile, stray or not.

what is certain though, is that everybody, maybe except Ukraine, will be happy at the moment to consider this impact an accident, regardless of who fired it.

NATO evidence on the incident will either support this assessment or made to support this assessment.

Ukrainian evidence on the incident will either not be published, maybe because there isn't any or because it doesn't support the Ukrainian narrative.

 

there is no hope of facts and data reaching the public before the end of this war.

 

at the end, there is only one party guilty of causing the Polish victims' death: Ruzzia.

Edited November 17, 2022 by tgw

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, tgw said:

unless provided access to radar data and the debris, none of these experts is able to differentiate with certainty between a stray Ukrainian air defense missile and a Russian missile, stray or not.

what is certain though, is that everybody, maybe except Ukraine, will be happy at the moment to consider this impact an accident, regardless of who fired it.

NATO evidence on the incident will either support this assessment or made to support this assessment.

Ukrainian evidence on the incident will either not be published, maybe because there isn't any or because it doesn't support the Ukrainian narrative.

 

there is no hope of facts and data reaching the public before the end of this war.

Everyone accepts it was an accident and no one is blaming Ukraine for the accident , like no one is suggesting that it was deliberate and accidents can happen when rockets are flying around .

   The problem is that Ukraine are denying it was their rocket and insisting it came from Russia and that Russia fired it .

   Ukraine trying to say it was a Russian rocket makes it appear to be a false flag operation .

  Like Ukraine deliberately firing a rocket in Poland and trying to blame Russia .

   Its the deceit from Ukraine that is causing problems 

[tgw]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   Ukraine trying to say it was a Russian rocket makes it appear to be a false flag operation .

  Like Ukraine deliberately firing a rocket in Poland and trying to blame Russia .

   Its the deceit from Ukraine that is causing problems 

this is complete nonsense, since it's not possible to conduct a false flag operation while leaving evidence laying around.

 

it's simply Ukraine trying to politically benefit from the incident.

it won't be the first lie in this war, and I don't think anyone can catch up with the Ruzzians in this department.

[Bkk Brian]

Ukraine war: What happened in Poland missile blast?

Douglas Barrie, a military expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, says there's "credible but not definite" evidence that the missile came from an S-300 system, he points out that the debris pictured shows an end casing with the little round holes, which is a similar pattern found on one of the main missiles fired from the S-300. "Who fired the missile is unclear," says J Andrés Gannon, a security expert at the US Council on Foreign Relations, who agrees that it may be from an S-300 system. "We know Russia has been using the S-300 for ground attacks, even though it's an air defence system, but Ukraine also uses them for air defence against cruise missiles."

https://www.bbc.com/news/63648958

[Mac Mickmanus]

35 minutes ago, tgw said:

this is complete nonsense, since it's not possible to conduct a false flag operation while leaving evidence laying around.

 

it's simply Ukraine trying to politically benefit from the incident.

it won't be the first lie in this war, and I don't think anyone can catch up with the Ruzzians in this department.

I wasn't saying that it was a false flag operation , its the fact that Ukraine are insisting that it was a Russian rocket makes it appear that Ukraine are trying to portray this as a Russian attack on Poland and not the accidental Ukrainian rocket misfiring that it most probably was .   

[BarraMarra]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I wasn't saying that Russia didn't start the war , I fully agree with that .

What I am saying is that the rocket in question was fired by Ukraine , Ukraine fired the rocket .

   (And BTW , you tell me to stop using the word "if" , when I didnt even use that word in my post ????

    Did this rocket identify itself as a Russian rocket ?

Ukraine has Soviet Rockets left over so yes it was a Russian S-300 missile outdated now but Ukraine has many of them.

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Everyone accepts it was an accident and no one is blaming Ukraine for the accident , like no one is suggesting that it was deliberate and accidents can happen when rockets are flying around .

   The problem is that Ukraine are denying it was their rocket and insisting it came from Russia and that Russia fired it .

   Ukraine trying to say it was a Russian rocket makes it appear to be a false flag operation .

  Like Ukraine deliberately firing a rocket in Poland and trying to blame Russia .

   Its the deceit from Ukraine that is causing problems 

No, it is people like you trying to make something out of nothing that is causing problems. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No, it is people like you trying to make something out of nothing that is causing problems. 

Ah really ?

So if I wouldn't have mentioned  it here on these forums then NATO and Ukraine wouldn't be having a disagreement ?

  I am the cause of the argument between NATO, Russia and Ukraine ?

In my defence , the disagreement between Ukraine , Nato and Russia was already ongoing before I commented on it 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, BarraMarra said:

Ukraine has Soviet Rockets left over so yes it was a Russian S-300 missile outdated now but Ukraine has many of them.

Apparently they still use them as air defence, though I doubt they'll be getting a resupply any time soon.

[Bkk Brian]

Probably new OP needed for this one.

 

Those that lost loved ones on MH17 are convinced that if the world had taken a stronger stance 8 years ago on Russia the conflict in Ukraine would not be happening now. Russia fabricated evidence and has lied to this day. However justice has finally arrived.

 

MH17: Three guilty as court finds Russia-controlled group downed airliner

A Dutch court has found three men guilty of murder for shooting down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people.

The missile attack was one of the most notorious war crimes in Ukraine before allegations of atrocities there became an almost daily reality.

Many of the victims' relatives believe if the world had reacted differently, and taken a tougher stance against Russia eight years ago, the invasion of Ukraine and the geopolitical instability that has followed could have been avoided.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

 

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ah really ?

So if I wouldn't have mentioned  it here on these forums then NATO and Ukraine wouldn't be having a disagreement ?

  I am the cause of the argument between NATO, Russia and Ukraine ?

In my defence , the disagreement between Ukraine , Nato and Russia was already ongoing before I commented on it 

There is no disagreement of the magnitude you're trying to push. 

Secondly I never said you caused anything.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Probably new OP needed for this one.

 

Those that lost loved ones on MH17 are convinced that if the world had taken a stronger stance 8 years ago on Russia the conflict in Ukraine would not be happening now. Russia fabricated evidence and has lied to this day. However justice has finally arrived.

 

MH17: Three guilty as court finds Russia-controlled group downed airliner

A Dutch court has found three men guilty of murder for shooting down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people.

The missile attack was one of the most notorious war crimes in Ukraine before allegations of atrocities there became an almost daily reality.

Many of the victims' relatives believe if the world had reacted differently, and taken a tougher stance against Russia eight years ago, the invasion of Ukraine and the geopolitical instability that has followed could have been avoided.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625

https://aseannow.com/topic/1278171-mh17-three-guilty-as-court-finds-russia-controlled-group-downed-airliner/

 

[Bkk Brian]

UN nuclear watchdog board again urges Russia to end actions at Ukrainian plants

VIENNA, Nov 17 (Reuters) - The U.N. nuclear watchdog's 35-nation Board of Governors on Thursday passed its third resolution since the outbreak of war in Ukraine calling on Russia to end all actions at Ukrainian nuclear facilities, diplomats at the closed-door vote said.

 

"(The board) expresses grave concern that the Russian Federation has not heeded the calls of the Board to immediately cease all actions against and at nuclear facilities in Ukraine and requests that the Russian Federation do so immediately," the resolution's text said.

 

Russia and China voted against the resolution while Kenya, Namibia, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Vietnam abstained, the diplomats said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/iaea-board-again-urges-russia-end-actions-ukrainian-nuclear-sites-2022-11-17/

[internationalism]

yesterday's interview with prof john mearsheimer on putin.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

 

john is very voiced on ukraine and advised ukrainian government to keep nuclear weapons (before they decided to hand them out  to russia) and his lectures on ukraine and american international policy towards ukraine, russia and eastern europe for some 15 years are easily accessible on youtube and printed publications.

 

His article from August from a reputable magazine 

"Playing With Fire in Ukraine, The Underappreciated Risks of Catastrophic Escalation"

Free text after registration

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine

or without registration

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine?check_logged_in=1&utm_medium=promo_email&utm_source=lo_flows&utm_campaign=registered_user_welcome&utm_term=email_1&utm_content=20221011

[Bkk Brian]

46 minutes ago, internationalism said:

yesterday's interview with prof john mearsheimer on putin.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

 

john is very voiced on ukraine and advised ukrainian government to keep nuclear weapons (before they decided to hand them out  to russia) and his lectures on ukraine and american international policy towards ukraine, russia and eastern europe for some 15 years are easily accessible on youtube and printed publications.

 

His article from August from a reputable magazine 

"Playing With Fire in Ukraine, The Underappreciated Risks of Catastrophic Escalation"

Free text after registration

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine

or without registration

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/playing-fire-ukraine?check_logged_in=1&utm_medium=promo_email&utm_source=lo_flows&utm_campaign=registered_user_welcome&utm_term=email_1&utm_content=20221011

Vladimir Putin’s apologists spread dangerous message

The standard-bearer of the pro-Putin realists is John Mearsheimer, a professor at the University of Chicago, who has made a career out of reducing the complexity of global politics to the aggression of self-interested powers. In the process, he studiously ignores their internal politics. One obvious advantage of this approach is that it considerably reduces the amount of research and knowledge that is required to dispense authoritative judgments about the conduct of any particular country.

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/vladimir-putins-apologists-spread-dangerous-message-20150129-130snb.html

[Rimmer]

Getting off topic:

Off topic and a troll post removed topic is about what is happening on the ground on a daily basis in Ukraine

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Vladimir Putin’s apologists spread dangerous message

The standard-bearer of the pro-Putin realists is John Mearsheimer, a professor at the University of Chicago,

An old saying says the first casualty of every war is the truth.

 

Provided that over many months (and actually many years before) we hear only positive reports about/from one side and only negative reports about (and nothing from) the other side.

 

Hasn't come to your unbiased mind even a slight doubt that the one side might not be perhaps always so angelic and that the other side might not be always so demonic? 

 

 

  

[internationalism]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Vladimir Putin’s apologists spread dangerous message

The standard-bearer of the pro-Putin realists is John Mearsheimer, a professor at the University of Chicago, who has made a career out of reducing the complexity of global politics to the aggression of self-interested powers. In the process, he studiously ignores their internal politics. One obvious advantage of this approach is that it considerably reduces the amount of research and knowledge that is required to dispense authoritative judgments about the conduct of any particular country.

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/vladimir-putins-apologists-spread-dangerous-message-20150129-130snb.html

you quote 2015 article as a reply to yesterday's mearshimer's interview.

 

as I said, that guy were advising the ukrainian government not to turn nukes to russia. He travelled there multiple times and talked to top political leaders. They have not listened to him.

I have just finished reading this full interview and mearsheimer does believe, that russia has chance of using nukes on kiev without possibility of nuke retaliation from nato. There might be nukes from russia, if they are losing in conventional armament field and don't want to lose more soldiers in hand to hand battles.

 

"If you fast forward to the Ukraine situation, assuming that the Ukrainians are rolling up the Russian forces inside Ukraine and they’re pushing the Russian forces out of Ukraine, it’s easy to imagine the Russians using nuclear weapons in Ukraine because they would not have to fear nuclear retaliation. Ukraine has no nuclear weapon, and the United States is certainly not going to use nuclear weapons if the Russians only use them in Ukraine."

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, internationalism said:

you quote 2015 article as a reply to yesterday's mearshimer's interview.

 

as I said, that guy were advising the ukrainian government not to turn nukes to russia. He travelled there multiple times and talked to top political leaders. They have not listened to him.

I have just finished reading this full interview and mearsheimer does believe, that russia has chance of using nukes on kiev without possibility of nuke retaliation from nato. There might be nukes from russia, if they are losing in conventional armament field and don't want to lose more soldiers in hand to hand battles.

 

"If you fast forward to the Ukraine situation, assuming that the Ukrainians are rolling up the Russian forces inside Ukraine and they’re pushing the Russian forces out of Ukraine, it’s easy to imagine the Russians using nuclear weapons in Ukraine because they would not have to fear nuclear retaliation. Ukraine has no nuclear weapon, and the United States is certainly not going to use nuclear weapons if the Russians only use them in Ukraine."

 

 

This OP is not about John Mearsheimer opinion pieces

 

What’s Missing from Mearsheimer’s Analysis of the Ukraine War

July 29, 2022

The three most important are the security imperatives of Russia’s neighbors, the increasing authoritarianism of the Russian state and the true horror of Russia’s brutal war and occupation. By not adequately weighing these factors, Mearsheimer can explain Putin’s invasion of a peaceful, independent nation as a predictable reaction to Western provocations. He blasts the U.S. and NATO response as an overreaction to a limited conflict. Analyzing only parts of the equation, he arrives at a deeply flawed solution: In my understanding, he essentially calls on the West to militarily abandon Ukraine and to cede it to Russia’s sphere of influence.

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-missing-mearsheimers-analysis-ukraine-war