Joe Biden says Putin is a 'war criminal'

[ozimoron]

The potential for NATO expansion to Ukraine was never a justification for an invasion and war crimes. The sanctions will remain until Russia undoes much more than retreat to its position before this current invasion. They will be made to pay a severe price. That was threatened and the West will make good on their threat. Rebuilding Ukraine will cost a lot of money and it's Russia who's going to foot the bill.

[Hummin]

Black and white huh, like there will never be action on playing the game to its limits. 
 

Putin have warned the west for years what the consequenses will be by moving closer, and sad to see he ment every word of what he have said. 
 

Easy to turn the blind eye to whats have been going on, and whats on the stakes every time when live humans are the pieces used, like in every conflict where resources and territory is on the table. 
 

There are no winners here, just losers

 

Reminds us on Germany 1. WW, and the worst is still to come. The russian bear is teased, the cold winters are coming!
 

[coolcarer]

Gotta love these apologists who try to blame the west for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine which is fueled by his desire to forcibly reshape Europe.

 

Hate to have them on my side on a battlefield, they’d be there sitting in a bunker discussing the latest excuses while everyone else is fighting for their sovereign country and freedom.

[ozimoron]

It’s ‘Effectively Impossible’ To Kick Russia Out Of The UN, But There Are Other Options

 

Diplomats could remove Russia from the human rights council or refuse to recognize a Russian-backed government in Ukraine, experts say.

 

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/its-effectively-impossible-kick-russia-out-un-there-are-other-options/362673/

[Hummin]

42 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Gotta love these apologists who try to blame the west for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine which is fueled by his desire to forcibly reshape Europe.

 

Hate to have them on my side on a battlefield, they’d be there sitting in a bunker discussing the latest excuses while everyone else is fighting for their sovereign country and freedom.

Unlikely all the typewriter worriers, who know all the answers, and being played by the propaganda! 

 

In the meantime those who have been toying and teasing putting millions of people in to game no one will win, and on top of it, place whole Europe's future on the table.

 

There is no one single action leading up to these crisis.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Russia was always been good at selling fear. In reality there was no conceivable possibility of Ukraine joining Nato and Putin knew that but used it as just one of his many reasons for attacking.

 

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-is-ukraine-still-not-in-nato/

 

 

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, cmarshall said:

It's quite plausible that Putin's goal is limited to the destruction of Ukraine, which he will certainly achieve.  He will annex some parts of Ukraine and leave the rest in rubble.  Mission accomplished.

 

In Afghanistan and Iraq I think the US's goals were actually limited to transferring 8$ trillion to the American military industrial complex, which was a stunning success.

You think it's plausible that Putin's goal is to waste a great part of his military, have most of the free world unite against him and bring devastating economic sanctions on Russia in order to have a failed state on Russia's border?  You must think Putin is incredibly stupid.

 

As to your thought's on the goals of the US in Afghanistan and Iraq; I think you are so locked into a conspiracy theory mindset you are unable to be objective.

Edited March 21, 2022 by heybruce

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

Spot on on your last paragraph. Though there were also some other goals that were also accomplished and I will not get into them as not to go off topic, The real goals are not always apparent to the general public,  

  But it is not plausible  that his goal is the destruction of the Ukraine.  The goals are   to stop the eastward expansion of NATO , and maintain Russia's dominance in the gas and Oil market for that region. 

This is really another petro war.

If it achieves this two goals Russia will have accomplished the goals it set out to achieve . The destruction of Ukraine is a by product of the failure to achieve these goals trough diplomatic negotiation.

And the west has it's fair share of the  blame in this. IMO the west is just as much to blame for the war in the Ukraine as Russia is. It is not like this came as a surprise to anyone who has followed the development of these events in the past 30 years or so.  Experts have warned about it, and Russia had said it would.

And I guaranty you, without a shred of doubt, The Biden administration was not surprised at all. 

Biden was the VP for 8 years, In the Senate for I think 36,   chainman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee .  He has seen the reports by the experts, he has been briefed by the CIA for the past 40 years, He very well knows what's going on. 

Trust me this is part of the geopolitical chess game, and the Ukrainian people and poor Russian conscripts that are losing their lives , are the pawns,

Let me summarize the logic of you and other Russia apologists:  Ukraine asked to be admitted to NATO, and instead of NATO saying "Hell No!" it said "Maybe later, much later."  In your mind this makes the west responsible for Russia's invasion.

 

So far nobody has attempted to answer a very obvious question:  Why do so many countries that border on Russia feel the need to join NATO to protect themselves from Russia?

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Yes indeed.  The western expansion of NATO.  

 

There were always arguments for and against NATO expansion.  The fact that Russia has now invaded a nation that was not in NATO has made those who joined the club extremely happy they did so.

[onthedarkside]

An exchange of bickering and trolling posts above has been removed, along with a pair of posts that crossed the line with regard to the local rule in this subforum -- "No Political discussions." 

 

In the current circumstance, we'll consider that to mean -- No partisan political discussions.

 

[ozimoron]

33 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Unlikely all the typewriter worriers, who know all the answers, and being played by the propaganda! 

 

In the meantime those who have been toying and teasing putting millions of people in to game no one will win, and on top of it, place whole Europe's future on the table.

 

There is no one single action leading up to these crisis.

 

The elephant in the room now is the many and persistent war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[ozimoron]

Colonel-General Mizintsev, without providing evidence, said that Ukrainian "bandits", "neo-Nazis" and nationalists had engaged in "mass terror" and gone on a killing spree in the city.

 

Mizintsev said Russia was not using heavy weapons in Mariupol

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/russia-demands-ukrainian-forces-lay-down-arms-in-mariupol/100925944

Edited March 21, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The elephant in the room now is the many and persistent war crimes and crimes against humanity.

And if you paid attention, you also know what leads up to conflicts where war crimes is a resoult of nations who do invade soverign countries based on superpowers getting to close to their boarders or getting in the way of their interests. Invade and make muppet governments they can control. Happend in South America, middle east and also Africa, and have become legitimt since there have been no consequences to those who «won» and left other countries in ruins and destablized. 
 

Ukraine is just another attempt after Putin feels cornered and left out and treated like the little man he is. 
 

How Putin believe he is going to manage getting out of this, is solely because he got nuclear war heads that can reach Usa! And of course every Capital city in Europe. 
 

The only way to stop this now, is from inside of Kreml, and they hand him over, but before that, it will take time, and the russians self will take action based on negative opinion against Putin. 
 

I hope soon, but still believe it will take years before we will see the outcome of this crime and see a solution, if not Ukraine lay down the weapons after a deal on Russians terms. . 
 

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

And if you paid attention, you also know what leads up to conflicts where war crimes is a resoult of nations who do invade soverign countries based on superpowers getting to close to their boarders or getting in the way of their interests. Invade and make muppet governments they can control. Happend in South America, middle east and also Africa, and have become legitimt since there have been no consequences to those who «won» and left other countries in ruins and destablized. 
 

Ukraine is just another attempt after Putin feels cornered and left out and treated like the little man he is. 
 

How Putin believe he is going to manage getting out of this, is solely because he got nuclear war heads that can reach Usa! And of course every Capital city in Europe. 
 

The only way to stop this now, is from inside of Kreml, and they hand him over, but before that, it will take time, and the russians self will take action based on negative opinion against Putin. 
 

I hope soon, but still believe it will take years before we will see the outcome of this crime and see a solution, if not Ukraine lay down the weapons after a deal on Russians terms. . 
 

 

Ukraine will not surrender. The West will continue to ramp up sanctions including the cessation of all trade until Russia relents or uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. If that happens, NATO will get involved.

[ozimoron]

'The Russians are in trouble, and they know it'

 

Russia dropped bombs on Kyiv Sunday evening and into Monday morning just after a report revealed their soldiers used a tank to open fire on a senior care home on Saturday.

 

“Russian generals are running out of time, ammunition, and manpower,”

 

As a result, the report explained, they are turning to haphazard firing on civilians.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/russia-in-trouble-commander/

[cmarshall]

37 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You think it's plausible that Putin's goal is to waste a great part of his military, have most of the free world unite against him and bring devastating economic sanctions on Russia in order to have a failed state on Russia's border?  You must think Putin is incredibly stupid.

 

As to your thought's on the goals of the US in Afghanistan and Iraq; I think you are so locked into a conspiracy theory mindset you are unable to be objective.

What I think is that Putin, as he has warned repeatedly, cannot and will not tolerate a neighboring state going over to the NATO/EU side of the enemy.  So, he will destroy it.  That is his goal and is an effective warning to other similar states belonging to the Russian sphere of influence.  

 

With respect to the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious.  When Colin Powell was lying through his teeth to the UN that Iraq had WMD even though the UN inspector reported that they had no such program and that Iraq had participated in 9/11 even though the Baathists and Al Queda were on opposite sides, I, like lots of other people, knew then that none of it was true.  And then after they invaded it turned out that there never was any evidence to support any of the American lies.  Seems to qualify as a conspiracy to me.  And most of the $8 trillion cost of those wars went to the military and defense contractors like Halliburton, VP Cheney's old company that made $40 billion out of the war, much of which came from non-competitive contracts.

 

But please continue to bury your head in the sand.  You'll remain a proud American.  

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Hummin said:

 

I hope soon, but still believe it will take years before we will see the outcome of this crime and see a solution, if not Ukraine lay down the weapons after a deal on Russians terms. . 
 

 

I can only assume you made a mistake there, it should have read:

 

"Russia lay down the weapons after a deal on Ukraine terms."

 

 

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What I think is that Putin, as he has warned repeatedly, cannot and will not tolerate a neighboring state going over to the NATO/EU side of the enemy.  So, he will destroy it.  That is his goal and is an effective warning to other similar states belonging to the Russian sphere of influence.  

 

With respect to the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious.  When Colin Powell was lying through his teeth to the UN that Iraq had WMD even though the UN inspector reported that they had no such program and that Iraq had participated in 9/11 even though the Baathists and Al Queda were on opposite sides, I, like lots of other people, knew then that none of it was true.  And then after they invaded it turned out that there never was any evidence to support any of the American lies.  Seems to qualify as a conspiracy to me.  And most of the $8 trillion cost of those wars went to the military and defense contractors like Halliburton, VP Cheney's old company that made $40 billion out of the war, much of which came from non-competitive contracts.

 

But please continue to bury your head in the sand.  You'll remain a proud American.  

So you clearly don't respect Ukraine's right to sovereignty. Ukraine has despised Russia since the 1930's famine.

 

The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

edit: I'm not American and have never been there. I agree completely about Iraq but this thread isn't about Iraq and in no way excuses unrelated war crimes.

Edited March 21, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Ukraine will not surrender. The West will continue to ramp up sanctions including the cessation of all trade until Russia relents or uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. If that happens, NATO will get involved.

We all have an opinion based on the information we have gained, but non of us really know. We can only at best making guesses, and hope for the best for the humanity, and everyone involved in the comflict on both sides. 
 

Russia doesnt dissapear even with Putin Removed

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What I think is that Putin, as he has warned repeatedly, cannot and will not tolerate a neighboring state going over to the NATO/EU side of the enemy.  So, he will destroy it.  That is his goal and is an effective warning to other similar states belonging to the Russian sphere of influence.  

 

With respect to the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious.  When Colin Powell was lying through his teeth to the UN that Iraq had WMD even though the UN inspector reported that they had no such program and that Iraq had participated in 9/11 even though the Baathists and Al Queda were on opposite sides, I, like lots of other people, knew then that none of it was true.  And then after they invaded it turned out that there never was any evidence to support any of the American lies.  Seems to qualify as a conspiracy to me.  And most of the $8 trillion cost of those wars went to the military and defense contractors like Halliburton, VP Cheney's old company that made $40 billion out of the war, much of which came from non-competitive contracts.

 

But please continue to bury your head in the sand.  You'll remain a proud American.  

"you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious"

 

Back atcha.  Ukraine was never offered NATO membership, or even promised that it would be allowed at some time in the future.  No matter how often you and others claim that Russia had to invade Ukraine to keep it out of NATO, it remains an obvious lie.

 

Regarding the off-topic conspiracy theory about the second Iraq War; it was a stupid mistake caused by the vanity and ambitions of the chicken-hawks of the Bush Jr. administration.  It was not a sinister plot orchestrated by the defense industries of the US.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

We all have an opinion based on the information we have gained, but non of us really know. We can only at best making guesses, and hope for the best for the humanity, and everyone involved in the comflict on both sides. 
 

Russia doesnt dissapear even with Putin Removed

I don't have an opinion. I'm quoting Zelenskiy and others. No body wants Russia to disappear, they want Putin to disappear and Russia out of Ukraine, all of it.

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I can only assume you made a mistake there, it should have read:

 

"Russia lay down the weapons after a deal on Ukraine terms."

 

 

That would be nice, wouldnt it? Putin pulled out of Cechnya, just to come back stronger. See where they are today? 
 

Will he pull out of Ukraine, I doubt it, but we can hope

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

That would be nice, wouldnt it? Putin pulled out of Cechnya, just to come back stronger. See where they are today? 
 

Will he pull out of Ukraine, I doubt it, but we can hope

Not only would it be nice it is also required by Ukraine and the international community

[Hummin]

15 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

What I think is that Putin, as he has warned repeatedly, cannot and will not tolerate a neighboring state going over to the NATO/EU side of the enemy.  So, he will destroy it.  That is his goal and is an effective warning to other similar states belonging to the Russian sphere of influence.  

 

With respect to the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious.  When Colin Powell was lying through his teeth to the UN that Iraq had WMD even though the UN inspector reported that they had no such program and that Iraq had participated in 9/11 even though the Baathists and Al Queda were on opposite sides, I, like lots of other people, knew then that none of it was true.  And then after they invaded it turned out that there never was any evidence to support any of the American lies.  Seems to qualify as a conspiracy to me.  And most of the $8 trillion cost of those wars went to the military and defense contractors like Halliburton, VP Cheney's old company that made $40 billion out of the war, much of which came from non-competitive contracts.

 

But please continue to bury your head in the sand.  You'll remain a proud American.  

There is not one reason only for the invasion, Putin want and need a safe land corridor down to Crimea as well, and is on the top of his list. 

 

Russia wants to block Kyiv, create land corridor to Crimea and Transdniestria

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-wants-block-kyiv-create-land-corridor-crimea-transdniestria-kyiv-says-2022-02-24/

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

There is not one reason only for the invasion, Putin want and need a safe land corridor down to Crimea as well, and is on the top of his list. 

 

Russia wants to block Kyiv, create land corridor to Crimea and Transdniestria

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-wants-block-kyiv-create-land-corridor-crimea-transdniestria-kyiv-says-2022-02-24/

Yes, I don't doubt that Russia will now declare mission accomplished and try to keep Mariupol, however that won't end Russia's problems going forward. Not by a long shot.

[Eff1n2ret]

I recall very many years ago Denis Healey, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, saying that being criticised by his opposite number was "like being savaged by a dead sheep". Putin undoubtedly is a war criminal, but I guess his view of Biden is much the same as Healey's. 

[Hummin]

It seems for the moment to be a suicidal war for both parts, unlikely what we have seen for a long time, except Chechenya as a good reference , and maybe the best reference to this war! 
 

The difference is, Chechnya have only 1,4 million people, Ukraine have 40 million. 300 000 Chechens died in that war. 
 

[tgw]

35 minutes ago, Hummin said:

 

It seems for the moment to be a suicidal war for both parts, unlikely what we have seen for a long time, except Chechenya as a good reference , and maybe the best reference to this war! 
 

The difference is, Chechnya have only 1,4 million people, Ukraine have 40 million. 300 000 Chechens died in that war. 

Quote

suicidal war for both parts

 

Ukraine is fighting for its EXISTENCE in this Russian antidemocratic war of aggression, it's not suicidal. Suicidal would be to give in to Russia, because it would mean the end of democratic Ukraine. Again.

 

And, no, Ukrainian people are not willing to accept that. They proved it in 2004 and again in 2014 and again now.

They are fighting for their freedom from Russia.

They don't want Russian thugs' fingers in their politics and economy.

 

And they are ready to defend their democracy.

[vinny41]

22 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"you have a truly impressive ability to ignore the obvious"

 

Back atcha.  Ukraine was never offered NATO membership, or even promised that it would be allowed at some time in the future.  No matter how often you and others claim that Russia had to invade Ukraine to keep it out of NATO, it remains an obvious lie.

 

Regarding the off-topic conspiracy theory about the second Iraq War; it was a stupid mistake caused by the vanity and ambitions of the chicken-hawks of the Bush Jr. administration.  It was not a sinister plot orchestrated by the defense industries of the US.

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.

 

Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

https://web.archive.org/web/20200714204022/http://www.summitbucharest.gov.ro/en/doc_202.html

[cmarshall]

22 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

So you clearly don't respect Ukraine's right to sovereignty. Ukraine has despised Russia since the 1930's famine.

 

The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

edit: I'm not American and have never been there. I agree completely about Iraq but this thread isn't about Iraq and in no way excuses unrelated war crimes.

You are confusing the world you wish with the world you have.  In some abstract sense Ukraine ought to be able to align itself with the West if it wishes to, but the simple reality, as Putin is now demonstrating unambiguously, is that it can't, because Putin won't let them.  And the West is not going to stop him.  So, the Ukrainians' choice is Rubble or Russian; nothing else is possible.

 

Beyond the Holodomor the Ukrainians bore the brunt of WWII.  That still doesn't mean that somehow they are now in a position to defeat the invading Russian army of 150,000 troops.  That is not going to happen.  

 

The destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan by the Americans disqualifies them from calling Putin a war criminal.