Retirement visa tax residency status.

[HKexpat]

Does having a retirement O visa in Thailand also mean you are deemed to be tax resident here?   I guess not as am not working but having recently changed address with my overseas bank they are asking me to confirm where I am tax resident.  As I only recently left HK and have a permanent residency status there still I believe my tax residency is deemed as HK for the current tax year but assuming I stay in Thailand what do people then use if asked by your bank to fill in a CRS form to confirm your tax residency? Thank you. 

[Whale]

Its a muddy situation which thankfully Thailand is not bothering with at the moment. Just explain to your bank that you are in Thailand and authorities do not issue TINs to retirees (actually you can get one if you push - I went to tax office when I retired and they told me not to bother) and your bank should allow you to have a non TIN status. HSBC allow me to keep that status to this day, its just a check box on their online TID registration system.

 

 

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

21 minutes ago, Whale said:

Its a muddy situation which thankfully Thailand is not bothering with at the moment. Just explain to your bank that you are in Thailand and authorities do not issue TINs to retirees (actually you can get one if you push - I went to tax office when I retired and they told me not to bother) and your bank should allow you to have a non TIN status. HSBC allow me to keep that status to this day, its just a check box on their online TID registration system.

 

 

I may be wrong, but doesn't tax residency have to do with the time spent in the country? Like more than half the year in Thailand you are deemed as tax resident here?

[DrJack54]

OP, why did you even bother changing your address to Thailand? 

I do all my financial payments, transfers etc using online banking.

Au address for banking is a relatives place.

Mind you the only thing posted out would be perhaps a card. 

You mention ......

 

"Does having a retirement O visa in Thailand also mean you are deemed to be tax resident here?"....

No. 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by DrJack54

[Gottfrid]

20 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, why did you even bother changing your address to Thailand? 

It might just be because he left the old address and maybe no longer have it.

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Gottfrid said:

It might just be because he left the old address and maybe no longer have it.

I would suggest he keep some form of address in HK.

That could be relative etc.

It's not just banking..

 

 

 

[TigerandDog]

18 hours ago, MeaMaximaCulpa said:

I may be wrong, but doesn't tax residency have to do with the time spent in the country? Like more than half the year in Thailand you are deemed as tax resident here?

I believe you are correct. You become a resident for TAX purposes ONLY if you reside in Thailand for 6 months or longer  continuously, regardless of visa type and address. Now this could be wrong, but all my research has come up with the same answer.

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, TigerandDog said:

I believe you are correct. You become a resident for TAX purposes ONLY if you reside in Thailand for 6 months or longer  continuously, regardless of visa type and address. Now this could be wrong, but all my research has come up with the same answer.

It is 6 months per calendar year. But Thailand do not enforce income taxes for those retired and in some cases there is a joint agreement between Thailand and other countries exempting it.

[Oxx]

13 minutes ago, TigerandDog said:

You become a resident for TAX purposes ONLY if you reside in Thailand for 6 months or longer

Almost.  It's 180 days in a tax year.  (And in Thailand that tax year is the same as a calendar year.)

[Tuvoc]

Yes 180 days, and last year I made sure that I was under that with 2 days to spare. Once permanently retired though it is inevitable you will become tax resident unless you split your time somehow.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Tuvoc

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Tuvoc said:

Yes 180 days, and last year I made sure that I was under that with 2 days to spare. Once permanently retired though it is inevitable you will become tax resident unless you split your time somehow.

In reality it not something a person needs to worry about.

In all my years I cannot recall a single report of anybody being charged for past due taxes or not doing a tax return.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

18 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

I would suggest he keep some form of address in HK.

That could be relative etc.

It's not just banking..

 

 

 

If by "some form of address" outside of Thailand (most likely in your home country or where you hold permanent residency) you mean a proforma address meant to deceive the authorities or facilitate certain processes, it may become a problem. For me at least, to legally avoid most taxation in my home country (and at the same time legally avoid tax on the same items in Thailand), I have to have my officially registered address in the country I reside (i.e. Thailand), and not in my home country. Then my bank there will obtain my address from the national address register, so I cannot operate with one address for taxes and one address for banking. I recently also had to supply the home country bank with my Thai tax ID (same as the pink card ID number if you have this, unless you registered for a tax ID before you got your pink card) AND also I was asked to "re-identify" myself due to EU regulations. And if I didn't comply with these requests, my account would be frozen/suspended, and my access to all internet-based government services suspended. So surveillance is increasing step by step, and control is soon 100%. But as usual, YMMV depending on your home country rules and regulations and any double tax agreements with Thailand. And how risk averse you are...

[DrJack54]

8 minutes ago, Tuvoc said:

Once permanently retired though it is inevitable you will become tax resident unless you split your time somehow.

Tax on what income?

Your would not be working in Thailand if on extensions retirement. 

[Andrew65]

19 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

I would suggest he keep some form of address in HK.

That could be relative etc.

It's not just banking..

 

 

 

If you keep a bank account in the UK you also have some credit towards your credit-worthiness (overseas accounts don't count). If you have lived overseas for more than 5 years and have not had car insurance, UK car insurance can cost up to 3 times more. Things I learnt 3 years ago when I returned to the UK after 18 years in Thailand.

[khunPer]

23 hours ago, HKexpat said:

Does having a retirement O visa in Thailand also mean you are deemed to be tax resident here?

Very simple, if you stay in Thailand for more than 180 days within a calendar year, you are fully tax-resident in that year. If you are due any income tax is another matter, depending our your source of funds and eventual double taxation agreement(s)...

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

In reality it not something a person needs to worry about.

In all my years I cannot recall a single report of anybody being charged for past due taxes or not doing a tax return.

The Danish expats have been checked last year, if they have paid taxes at home of their income; we needed to show proof for that. The tax-man - actually a pair of polite women - said that also Finish residents were checked, and that was the beginning of checking up on, if foreigners had paid their income tax abroad.

 

It might be depending of the individual Double Taxation Agrements, some says that for example "retirement pensions can be taxed in both states".

[HKexpat]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.  I also bank with HSBC so I may just put Thailand and say I don’t have a Tin as I have retired.  For now though as I still believe I am classed as ordinarily resident in HK will stay with HK as I have a TIN there too.  Am originally from the UK and still have a permanent HKID card.  Am reluctant to use an address I don’t actually reside at.  Thanks. 

[phetphet]

I have a UK address for UK bank purposes. Even though I have lived full time in Thailand for several years. Without it the bank will close the account. 

 

I also have several UK investments. Shares etc. I was told by an accountant that I would not be liable to UK CGT on profit from any sale of said shares as a non resident UK.

 

Any funds brought into Thailand are not taxable provided they are not brought in in the year they are earned. Thai tax years starts 1st January I believe.

 

Also I see that BitKub are asking where one pays tax in their latest KYC questionnaire.

 

Thailand probably needs to get some readies from somewhere after the pandemic and collapse of tourism.

[placnx]

11 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It is 6 months per calendar year. But Thailand do not enforce income taxes for those retired and in some cases there is a joint agreement between Thailand and other countries exempting it.

It would depend on the type of income. There is a recent discussion concerning US citizens living in Thailand:

It may get messy with some US retirement accounts where tax is not due to the US on withdrawal.

Edited March 25, 2022 by placnx

[placnx]

9 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Tax on what income?

Your would not be working in Thailand if on extensions retirement. 

Interest income, for example. Pensions would hopefully be exempt. Maybe capital gains are not a problem, either. Some people could be here from age 50 on a retirement visa, probably before pensions kick in.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, phetphet said:

I have a UK address for UK bank purposes. Even though I have lived full time in Thailand for several years. Without it the bank will close the account. 

 

I also have several UK investments. Shares etc. I was told by an accountant that I would not be liable to UK CGT on profit from any sale of said shares as a non resident UK.

 

Any funds brought into Thailand are not taxable provided they are not brought in in the year they are earned. Thai tax years starts 1st January I believe.

 

Also I see that BitKub are asking where one pays tax in their latest KYC questionnaire.

 

Thailand probably needs to get some readies from somewhere after the pandemic and collapse of tourism.

I find this concept of bringing money into Thailand that was earned in a previous year to avoid taxation rather dodgy. It could only legally work if there was no income in the year when the money was remitted.

[phetphet]

31 minutes ago, placnx said:

I find this concept of bringing money into Thailand that was earned in a previous year to avoid taxation rather dodgy. It could only legally work if there was no income in the year when the money was remitted.

It's not dodgy. As far as I can see it is just taking advantage of the tax system as it stands. You only ever bring in money earned in the previous year.

 

Don't forget, as a UK non resident, it is not possible to take advantage of any share or tax ISA's. there for investments so you would get hit with a double whammy.

 

From UK Gov website:

 

If you're abroad

You have to pay tax on gains you make on property and land in the UK even if you're non-resident for tax purposes. You do not pay Capital Gains Tax on other UK assets, for example shares in UK companies, unless you return to the UK within 5 years of leaving.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by phetphet

[Seeall]

10 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

In reality it not something a person needs to worry about.

In all my years I cannot recall a single report of anybody being charged for past due taxes or not doing a tax return.

Well, if one is retired in TH and cant work, whats left?  some pitiful interest income?, which by the way  SCB told me would be auto taxed.....   its a mystery...

[Klonko]

Being more than 180 days in Thailand, you pay taxes on income earned in Thailand and theoretically (AFAIK not enforced) on income from abroad if the respective funds are transfered to Thailand within less than 12 months and not exempt under a double tax treaty.

 

With permanent residence, inheritances from abroad are also taxed, though Thai inheritance tax rate of 5/10 % kicks in only at THB 100 Mio.

[DrJack54]

18 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Being more than 180 days in Thailand, you pay taxes on income earned in Thailand and theoretically (AFAIK not enforced) on income from abroad if the respective funds are transfered to Thailand within less than 12 months and not exempt under a double tax treaty.

 

With permanent residence, inheritances from abroad are also taxed, though Thai inheritance tax rate of 5/10 % kicks in only at THB 100 Mio.

This thread comes up often.

Very little to do with visas or basis of living in Thailand.

Can't understand why this thread has not been moved to financial forums. 

[Boomer6969]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

I find this concept of bringing money into Thailand that was earned in a previous year to avoid taxation rather dodgy. It could only legally work if there was no income in the year when the money was remitted.

Sort of.. I transfer on the the first business day of year x all the pension earned during year x-1, and that foots the bill, doesn't it?

[placnx]

14 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

Sort of.. I transfer on the the first business day of year x all the pension earned during year x-1, and that foots the bill, doesn't it?

Then people on a retirement extension should have done their original entry around the beginning of April if using the 800k in the bank method. That way it's not necessary to bring in an excessive amount at the start of the year.

[pmarlin]

The answer is not simple or cut and dry/ Several countries have tax treaties that prevents dual taxation or prevents taxation on pensions and more  of those who are retired. 

thailand.pdf

[Boomer6969]

8 hours ago, placnx said:

Then people on a retirement extension should have done their original entry around the beginning of April if using the 800k in the bank method. That way it's not necessary to bring in an excessive amount at the start of the year.

Dunno about that, when I transfer the 90k USD I know there won't be much left at the end of the year. I keep the 400000 Bahts for my Thai Wife extensions in a fixed term account, for that sole purpose.

[HKexpat]

HSBC (UK) will allow you to maintain a UK bank account with an overseas address.