Friday 13th: Instructor shot dead at rifle range - beginner student thought it wasn't a live round

[phetphet]

2 hours ago, vinci said:

why did she pointed a gun at the instructor to begin with, even if it was a dummy round she still pull the trigger, make you wonder sometime

Picking up rounds from the floor?

Loading the gun herself?

Pointing gun at instructor?

All sounds so wrong. Where was the instructor's attention when student was doing all three? 

 

I only ever tried a shooting range here twice, many years ago. Both times the instructor did all the loading and handling of the gun, and only handed it to me after thorough instruction and already pointing it in the direction of the target. He then stood behind me while I fired.

 

 

[kwak250]

3 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

My guess is it was due to being shot. 

Yep i don't think diabetes was the cause.

[darrenr]

I am ex police, even some police when handling pistols are not situationally aware of their surrounds and actions , I have seen many times when the person is talking with a gun in their hand and the gun muzzle is pointing at the person they are talking to , even waving it around.

 

this unfortunately is probably as result of poor range practice and discipline by the instructor and the student , as another poster said ‘you should always treat a gun as loaded until it is cleared and declared safe “

[BangkokReady]

4 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Also, the instructor.  He should never had even allowed the student to get into a position where they are loading the gun or pointing it at him.  And the range managers for allowing a live bullet to be just sitting on the floor.

[Hans Johnson]

Of the ranges that I’ve been to in Thailand mostly military, I have noticed they were well supervised and never seen ammunition lying around on the floor and never seen dummies distributed the gun had live rounds or empty with demonstrators giving instructions on safety 

[Orinoco]

Adult idiots with guns.

Safety first as always in Thailand. 

[animalmagic]

1 hour ago, connda said:

They are real.  They are called "snap caps."  You can use them for dry firing, or they can be useful when working with a student to get them use to clearing an unexpected misfire. 
 

Very valid points, but the snapcaps would be easily identified as being such.  I have used and taught with dummy rounds that, apart from weight and absence of a primer, do resemble a normal round to a greater extent than snapcaps.  However, both snapcaps and dummy rounds are only used when teaching practical courses to advanced students to simulate a stoppage and the student needs to react and clear quickly and efficiently.  

The original story says it was a beginner area/course and there would be no justification in using them even if the range had them.  She sounds a bit more advanced than a beginner as she obviously knows how to load a magazine, fit it in the weapon and then cock it to facilitate firing.

Her story sounds a little dodgy to me.  Perhaps a check on how well she knew the instructor would be informative.  Instructors and students do get in close proximity when teaching, and afterwards on occasions. 

Either the range ignored or did not enforce all reasonable safety precautions (this is Thailand) and left live rounds lying on the ground, or the woman found what she thought was a foolproof way to commit murder.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, darksidedog said:

I guess the instructor never told her the very first rule of never pointing a gun at anyone, whether it is loaded or not.

Many decades ago whilst doing my annual range firing practice, the first rule we were taught every year was NEVER, NEVER point any weapon at a person unless you mean to kill them. If you have a problem with the weapon and you cannot clear it, ALWAYS point it down range, flat and no fingers on the weapon, raise your hand  and shout weapon jammed etc. The Range Master will order cease firing, and after firing ceases, he will approach the weapon and attempt to clear it.

 

I have been waiting for my turn and I saw one guy turn with his gun, and heard his scream when the Range master kicked him in the ribs. A lesson was well taught that day.

 

The last time I handled a weapon was in 1983 and I never want to handle one again. Its sole purpose is to kill and nothing else.

[datcook]

Where was the Range safety Officer,

As a former Range Safety Officer with an Army unit  with students using anything from pistols, rifles, machine guns and even grenades safety was most paramount

Safety in Thailand - non existent

 

[transam]

4 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Because she’s a halfwit?

Reads like you have never been trained in the use of firearms, the same as this lady.

The blame lays squarely on the shoulders of the deceased...

[Zack61]

4 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

My guess is it was due to being shot. 

By 2 Burmese lads.

[smew]

sounds familiar!!: were they making a movie..?

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Any civilian who owns a gun is a dummy. 

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

And 'students' stotally supervised at all times and not allowed to just pick up rounds from the floor an assume anything!

 

I recall my weapons training / live firing in the early days of national service training. Totally structured and supervised. Students not allowed to do anything except exactly what they were told to do and supervised to do. And after every round fired students cannot move at all until things are checked and then students ordered to put the pistol/rifle down and before they do that a strict triple reminder where the barrel must be pointed at all times.

 

This incident sounds like a picnic and a recipe for didaster. 

I add more;, during all weapons training we were taught and reminded often that you never put your firing finger inside the trigger guard until:

 

- During firing practice, when your instructor specifically tells you to put your finger on the trigger but apply no pressure, and wait for a further command.

 

In reality there was always then a wait until everything was checked and all in order before the order to fire was given. During this activity the trainers (mostly sergeaants) would carefully check everything including where fingers were at all times and check if it looked like there was pressure being applied to the actual trigger before the actual 'fire' command. 

 

- In combat keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you're totally ready to fire/instructed to fire. We were taught and remined that one of the strong dangers in combat is firing too quickly/without proper thought and possibly killing/injuring your comrade soldiers. 

 

During the training with live hand grenades (which was handled with enormous emphahasis on safety) there was an incident with another platoon.

 

A young conscript was handed the live grenaade with his instructor very close by to take immediate action if needed. The conscript knew well that there would be an order to 'pull out the pin' then wait for the next (very quick) order to 'throw'.

 

The conscript took the grenade then in panic very quickly pulled the pin then immediately threw the grenade but it didn't go over the earth mound in front, it hit high up on the mound and bounced back into the trench.

 

The instructor grabbed the boys arm and very very quickly pulled him over the lower rear mound and out of danger. 

 

An investigation followed, the young conscript was changed and spent the rest of his 2 years at a 'boot camp' on basic kitchen duties 'never to be reposted'.

 

The protocols were reexamined and found to be without fault and grenade practice recommenced. Obviously with great emphahsis on safety and we were told later that the incident (above) was always mentioned during grenade practice as an attempt to remind conscripts that panic can happen but we must work hard to always keep panic at a very low level. 

 

During all of our training, from day one, concripts were all watched very carefully for any indications of panic or of flippant attitudes.

 

A twist; during boot camp we were lined up single file in alphabetical order to get vaccinations for every illness/disease known to mankind. This 'event' happened 3 times.

 

When the single file line was ready a team of nurses would quickly move down both sides of the single file and insert vaccination needles in both arms at the same time.

 

The boy who was in the line immediately in front of me was from my home town, a bigger stronger boy, sports champion and local football hero. He was also a strong academic achiever.

 

As soon as a needle touched his skin he would faint and drop down passed out, with me trying to hold him up, but the nurses jabbing me in both arms while this was happening.

 

When it came to the second round on innoculations a few days later he fainted again. He was discharged as 'medically unfit' and went home. 

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Excel said:

Perhaps the cameras were STF ????

Or fake cameras...

[BKKBike09]

A stupid and wholly avoidable accident.

 

I've only been to that range once, when it just opened. They regularly run IDPA matches and the people involved are, as far as I know, not cowboys (no pun intended).

 

However ... pistol ammo in Thailand is a mix of what's called 'look sorm' ลูกช้อม and 'look jing' ลูกจริง: 'practice' and 'real'. To an absolute novice, ammo described as 'practice' might conceivably be mistaken for inert rounds, especially if the novice in question has never pulled the trigger on a 'practice' round. There are also people here making and selling 'dummy' inert rounds out of live rounds (drilling the case and removing the primer). 

 

The 'practice' rounds are typically basic lead bullets, sometimes coated / painted, sometimes just bare lead. But, in 9mm, they are not far short of a basic jacketed round in velocity, around 1,000 fps. 

 

Glock platform is very popular for training with minimum of controls to learn. Striker fired so consistent trigger pull weight. No side-frame external safety to mess with. Flip-side (to me) is that with safety built into the trigger system, it is literally just point and shoot. Plus, being striker fired, there's nothing obvious like a cocked hammer to indicate readiness to fire.

 

Ultimately the instructor (an army Captain, RIP) has to take some of the blame because it's the instructor's job to oversee everything a student does. 

 

 

 

[BKKBike09]

13 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Any civilian who owns a gun is a dummy. 

Good to know I'm not the only dummy in town.

[specialist]

it has been awhile since i have posted, i do read this everyday. if the instructor was shot in the shoulder, how did he die? the bullet could have been deflected by the bones and went up and nicked an artery or when down to his heart.

 

This has been said,

1) Always treat a gun if it loaded

2) Only point your gun at what you intend to shoot.

3) Never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot

 

The events that have been stated seem to me to be incredulous and untrue.

Waiting for further information!

[Dialemco]

Some story ! 

[Tubulat]

That's terrible for everybody who is involved.

[crazykopite]

Sounds very suspicious to me and why was she pointing the weapon at the individual the only ammunition to be on the floor should be spent cartridges that was fired from the weapon RIP to the instructor 

[RJRS1301]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor, reported Thai Rath. She was taken to the police station for questioning but as yet no charges have been filed. 

 

Huh? Even if she thought it was a "dummy round", why would she be pointing the gun at the instructor, then firing the gun? And why would a gun have blanks at a firing range? So many unanswered questions. Looks like manslaughter to me. 

Why would you picking up bullets from the floor under any circumstances. Great safety regulations it seems

 

[hotchilli]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor,

Loaded it and fired... but not at a target?

[hotchilli]

5 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Because she’s a halfwit?

Half is being very generous.

[sqwakvfr]

I am a retired American Police Officer and handling firearms hasbeen a part of my life for almost 40 years. I have never been to a firing range in Thailand(probably won’t) and do not know how Safety procedures are enforced.  Rule #1 to me has been “never point your weapon at anyone or anything that your are not willing to kill”.  

 

On another note Alec Baldwin knows how this shooter must be feeling now?  

[David T Pike]

Now this story makes it even crazier!  So she shot at the target but hit her instructor??? And she hit him in his FOREARM and it killed him? Did he die of shock? Heart attack?  Did no one know how to treat him until the EMTs showed up? <deleted>??? 

https://thainewsroom.com/2022/05/13/bullet-mix-up-leads-to-student-killing-instructor-at-shooting-range/

[inThailand]

Like most professionals here, did the instructor have any training? Incomplete training? Safety training? Or bad training? A taxi driver turned to be an instructor? 

[Burma Bill]

3 hours ago, kcpattaya said:

Seems to me that there is more to this story...
 

Yes indeed.

What I ask is why does a 50 year old lady take firearms training with a Glock 19 handgun??

[it is what it is]

6 hours ago, Henryford said:

Even if it was a dummy why did she aim at the instructor and fire?

 

maybe a distant relative of alec baldwin...

[Iamfalang]

lack of Education and fatal instruments.

 

Give everyone anything that will cause harm, and people will be harmed.  Hey, I wonder if I can eat this knife?  nope.   Hey, can I use this acid on my skin like cream?  nope.   Hey....

 

the problem is that this Darwin award winner might be next to you.......