Voices: From hero to zero: How did faith in Boris Johnson’s premiership crumble in less than three years?

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

But that was a different situation though .

There was mass street protests against Thatcher and the unpopular Poll tax and her advisers thought it would be better if She resigned , otherwise Tories would have received an trouncing at the next general election .

   Will the voters desert the Tories because Boris had a Christmas drink in the same way as the reaction to the Poll tax ?

  As they will not, there is no reason for Boris to resign

But those traitors to country & party ….the 148 MPs voting against him …. secretly …. What to do about them ? ???? Whips will know who they are …

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

The US will have to get in the queue with the rest of the world, who are still in front.

Of course, silly me. Like the EU, the US needs us more than we need them. 

 

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

The countries Remainers said would never deal with a free UK.

Namely?

 

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

[Biden] missed his chance early on. 

The US administration must be devastated.

 

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

No need to repair anything with the EU.

Of course not. Exports only down by £20bn last year. Nothing to worry about.

 

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

 

That bloc will have disintegrated before long. 

I thought that it was meant to have disintegrated as soon as the UK left?

[RayC]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K -USA Trade deal talks seem to have come to a stop when Biden took over as POTUS...

We agree on something (although the talks weren't going anywhere quickly when Trump was in charge).

 

Little prospect of any deal with the US, bridges burnt (or burning) with China and the EU. That's a lot of the world where British exporters might be dealt with unfavourably.

Edited June 8, 2022 by RayC
Clarity

[Mac Mickmanus]

19 minutes ago, RayC said:

We agree on something (although the talks weren't going anywhere quickly when Trump was in charge).

 

Little prospect of any deal with the US, bridges burnt (or burning) with China and the EU. That's a lot of the world where British exporters might be dealt with unfavourably.

The U.K is now dealing/talking negotiating with individual USA States , rather than negotiating with the USA as a whole, completely avoiding having to deal with Biden , as hes too busy doing other things . 

   But these talks do take along time , 5-10-15-20 years is the normal mount of time these talks take .

[Loiner]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

 

I thought that it was meant to have disintegrated as soon as the UK left?

Did you think so? That’s a bit overly optimistic, but the cracks are already showing. Putin is doing more for that than the UK, but the economic and political divides between them are beginning to pull them apart. 

[bannork]

12 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Did you think so? That’s a bit overly optimistic, but the cracks are already showing. Putin is doing more for that than the UK, but the economic and political divides between them are beginning to pull them apart. 

Actually I think Putin's  barbaric actions in Ukraine have brought Europe and the EU closer together. Only last year I saw an interview with Johnson where he dismissed the idea of military battles on European soil as a thing of the past 

Of course weaning their economies off Russian oil and gas is painful but it's necessary.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

But those traitors to country & party ….the 148 MPs voting against him …. secretly …. What to do about them ? ???? Whips will know who they are …

People who oppose this he leader of a political party are not traitors to the nation.

 

Well not in in the UK they aren’t, or at least not yet in the UK they are not.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K is now dealing/talking negotiating with individual USA States , rather than negotiating with the USA as a whole, completely avoiding having to deal with Biden , as hes too busy doing other things . 

   But these talks do take along time , 5-10-15-20 years is the normal mount of time these talks take .

The individual States don’t determine import rights or import duties.

 

Moreover, any deal the US offers the Uk will be structured to meet the objectives of US businesses, the leaders of which understand that the weak position the UK has put itself in is an opportunity to enforce terms that are very positive for US businesses regardless of the impact on the UK economy/society.

 

But don’t fret, this isn’t going to happen just yet, the UK must first do as it is told wrt to Ireland.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The individual States don’t determine import rights or import duties.

 

Moreover, any deal the US offers the Uk will be structured to meet the objectives of US businesses, the leaders of which understand that the weak position the UK has put itself in is an opportunity to enforce terms that are very positive for US businesses regardless of the impact on the UK economy/society.

 

But don’t fret, this isn’t going to happen just yet, the UK must first do as it is told wrt to Ireland.

With progress stalled on an agreement, the Government has switched its focus to making deals with individual US states.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/government-donald-trump-joe-biden-penny-mordaunt-aberdeen-b996444.html

[RayC]

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K is now dealing/talking negotiating with individual USA States , rather than negotiating with the USA as a whole, completely avoiding having to deal with Biden , as hes too busy doing other things . 

It's going to be time consuming dealing directly with 50 individual states.

 

In any event, as @Chomper HiggotHiggot points out, US import tariffs are set at a federal level, so no way of side-stepping dealing with Biden. 

 

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   But these talks do take along time , 5-10-15-20 years is the normal mount of time these talks take .

I thought one of the advantages of Brexit was that the UK would be able to be more nimble in negotiating trade deals? 5-20 years to conclude a deal is no better than the EU.

[RayC]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

With progress stalled on an agreement, the Government has switched its focus to making deals with individual US states.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/government-donald-trump-joe-biden-penny-mordaunt-aberdeen-b996444.html

That just seems to be diplomatic speak for "We met, we talked, we didn't agree anything but we didn't end up fighting either"

Edited June 9, 2022 by RayC
Correction

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

With progress stalled on an agreement, the Government has switched its focus to making deals with individual US states.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/government-donald-trump-joe-biden-penny-mordaunt-aberdeen-b996444.html

The UK can make deals with as many individual US States as it wishes, none will be exempt from US Customs controls, levies and quotas. 
 

 

[candide]

33 minutes ago, RayC said:

It's going to be time consuming dealing directly with 50 individual states.

 

In any event, as @Chomper HiggotHiggot points out, US import tariffs are set at a federal level, so no way of side-stepping dealing with Biden. 

 

I thought one of the advantages of Brexit was that the UK would be able to be more nimble in negotiating trade deals? 5-20 years to conclude a deal is no better than the EU.

It seems the time horizon is getting more and more extensive for Brexiters. First, they claimed immediate benefits, then they said it was ne essary to wait a few years, and now It's 20 years. Soon they will brag about benefits of Brexit for the next century! ????

Edited June 9, 2022 by candide

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, candide said:

It seems the time horizon is getting more and more extensive for Brexiters. First, they claimed immediate benefits, then they said it was ne essary to wait a few years, and now It's 20 years. Soon they will Bragg about benefits of Brexit for the next century! ????

You are getting numerous different opinions on different subjects and mixing them all together and then laughing about it . 

   Some things like immigration control would take effect immediately .

It would take a few years for other effects to manifest and get things sorted out because of restructuring and things . 

   Trade talks often drag on for years and it doesn't help having to deal with sleepy Joe.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

   Some things like immigration control would take effect immediately .

Given that the UK doesn't seem able to fulfill its' labour requirements domestically, it needs to import labour. It seems that we may well end up with simply replacing EU nationals with nationals from elsewhere. Begs the question, why bother?

 

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It would take a few years for other effects to manifest and get things sorted out because of restructuring and things . 

   Trade talks often drag on for years and it doesn't help having to deal with sleepy Joe.

But no one seems to be able to give any, even vague, estimation when these perceived benefits are likely to be realised. 

 

To quote Keynes out of context: "In the long run, we are all dead". Any benefits won't be much use to us then.

[orchis]

arrogance goes a long way but not all the way

[Mac Mickmanus]

12 minutes ago, RayC said:

Given that the UK doesn't seem able to fulfill its' labour requirements domestically, it needs to import labour. It seems that we may well end up with simply replacing EU nationals with nationals from elsewhere. Begs the question, why bother?

 

But no one seems to be able to give any, even vague, estimation when these perceived benefits are likely to be realised. 

 

To quote Keynes out of context: "In the long run, we are all dead". Any benefits won't be much use to us then.

The idea was to get British unemployed people back into work , rather than just getting cheap labour coming over from the E.U . Which is happening because the numbers of U.K people unemployed is decreasing . That is one of the benefits of leaving the E.U.

     British people going back to work 

[Excel]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The idea was to get British unemployed people back into work , rather than just getting cheap labour coming over from the E.U . Which is happening because the numbers of U.K people unemployed is decreasing . That is one of the benefits of leaving the E.U.

     British people going back to work 

All 2000 of them, the other 10,000 who won't are in Liverpool ????

[RayC]

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The idea was to get British unemployed people back into work , rather than just getting cheap labour coming over from the E.U . Which is happening because the numbers of U.K people unemployed is decreasing . That is one of the benefits of leaving the E.U.

     British people going back to work 

Unemployment levels are currently declining which can only be a good thing but the number of job vacancies is increasing with many sectors unable to recruit domestically in the UK. These vacancies will need to be filled - if not locally then from abroad - or they will simply disappear which can't be good for the economy.

 

As I said previously, we are most likely simply going to replace EU immigrants with those from elsewhere. Was this one of the aims of Brexit? I don't see how that is much of a benefit.

Edited June 9, 2022 by RayC
Addition

[Mac Mickmanus]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

 

As I said previously, we are most likely simply going to replace EU immigrants with those from elsewhere. Was this one of the aims of Brexit? I don't see how that is much of a benefit.

You did say that previously, and I previously replied that the idea is to get British people to fill the job vacancies .

   

[bannork]

3 hours ago, candide said:

It seems the time horizon is getting more and more extensive for Brexiters. First, they claimed immediate benefits, then they said it was ne essary to wait a few years, and now It's 20 years. Soon they will brag about benefits of Brexit for the next century! ????

Economically Brexit is insanity, putting up trade barriers to a massive trading bloc on your doorstep in the hope far away countries, many with less spending power, will somehow desire UK exports.

So some turn to 'sovreignty', the ability to make our own laws, forgetting that whilst we were in the EU we were a major player able to influence policy. 

Now as a third country we've lost any influence in decision making about trade rules we stiil have to follow in interaction with our biggest trading partner! 

Stupid!

 

[Excel]

1 minute ago, bannork said:

Economically Brexit is insanity, putting up trade barriers to a massive trading bloc on your doorstep in the hope far away countries, many with less spending power, will somehow desire UK exports.

So some turn to 'sovreignty', the ability to make our own laws, forgetting that whilst we were in the EU we were a major player able to influence policy. 

Now as a third country we've lost any influence in decision making about trade rules we stiil have to follow in interaction with our biggest trading partner! 

Stupid!

 

Never was about that. It was all about not adopting the EU policy for tax havens that Rees-Mogg and his cronies benefit from. It was all about never agreeing to unified pension payment schemes,  but it was all about self enrichment of the old Etonians. 

[candide]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The idea was to get British unemployed people back into work , rather than just getting cheap labour coming over from the E.U . Which is happening because the numbers of U.K people unemployed is decreasing . That is one of the benefits of leaving the E.U.

     British people going back to work 

It's not true. There is no noticeable effect of Brexit on unemployment so far. It was 3,72% in 2019, and 3.7% in May 2022.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/employmentintheuk/may2022#:~:text=The UK unemployment rate was,below pre-coronavirus pandemic levels.

 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You did say that previously, and I previously replied that the idea is to get British people to fill the job vacancies .

   

That might be the idea but it is not as simple as 'one immigrant worker out, one domestic worker in'.

 

There is a currently a shortage of workers in the aviation industry, some of which is due to EU workers not returning.  Apparently it takes 12 weeks to train/ clear individuals to work in security/ baggage handling, etc. at airports. Obviously not a long term problem but no comfort to those people having their holidays cancelled.

 

However, what about those jobs which require longer training/ more experience? You can't simply take people out of an unemployment line and tell them that they are now an accountant/ doctor/ systems analyst/ etc. These jobs will need to be filled by overseas workers and, as I said previously, simply replacing EU nationals with other overseas nationals seems a pretty pointless exercise and offers no real benefits 

[Loiner]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You did say that previously, and I previously replied that the idea is to get British people to fill the job vacancies .

   

But those ardent EU lovers and socialist won’t admit that they love the idea of having cheaper Eastern European maids for their domestic servants; South Asian serfs to make and deliver cheap meals on wheels; and African labour for their firms. 

Michael O’Leary confirmed that again recently with his call for cheap imports to service his flights. 

[Slip]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You did say that previously, and I previously replied that the idea is to get British people to fill the job vacancies .

   

So which minimum wage job will you be applying for?  You should be quick before the tories abolish minimum wage completely.

 

Edit: And the same question to you @Loiner  Last time I called you out you didn't  respond.  I trust you will do better this time?

Edited June 9, 2022 by Slip
Must do better....

[Mac Mickmanus]

39 minutes ago, Slip said:

So which minimum wage job will you be applying for?  You should be quick before the tories abolish minimum wage completely.

 

Edit: And the same question to you @Loiner  Last time I called you out you didn't  respond.  I trust you will do better this time?

Do stop this nonsensical scare mongering and making false suggestions .

The Tories have no plans to abolish minimum wage and nor do they want to and they have raised the minimum wage (by 6.6 % ), rather than decrease/abolish it  .

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

That might be the idea but it is not as simple as 'one immigrant worker out, one domestic worker in'.

 

There is a currently a shortage of workers in the aviation industry, some of which is due to EU workers not returning.  Apparently it takes 12 weeks to train/ clear individuals to work in security/ baggage handling, etc. at airports. Obviously not a long term problem but no comfort to those people having their holidays cancelled.

 

However, what about those jobs which require longer training/ more experience? You can't simply take people out of an unemployment line and tell them that they are now an accountant/ doctor/ systems analyst/ etc. These jobs will need to be filled by overseas workers and, as I said previously, simply replacing EU nationals with other overseas nationals seems a pretty pointless exercise and offers no real benefits 

Why aren't the E.U workers returning to work in the U.K ?

They are still allowed to return to the UK and work . 

The shortage of staff in the aviation industry is caused by the industry laying everyone off during the Covid pandemic and suddenly being taken by surprise now that restrictions have been eased and now more staff are required .

   Covid restrictions were suddenly lifted  and the airports had to fill vacancies that take months to train for .

  Staff shortages are because of Covid .

E.U Doctors can apply for work permits to work in the U.K

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, Slip said:

 

Edit: And the same question to you @Loiner  Last time I called you out you didn't  respond.  I trust you will do better this time?

Which part? I can’t be expected to attend to every piece of nonsense you post. Was it something important you needed guidance on?

[ozimoron]

On 6/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, Loiner said:

Just another Armageddon forecast. Heard them all before and none of them came true. 

Perhaps not quite Armageddon but the UK economic outlook post Brexit is not pretty.

 

https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/uk-and-global-economy-after-brexit