U.S. Supreme Court expands public gun carry rights, striking down New York state law

[peter zwart]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:44 AM, Jerno said:

Too many idiots in the USA so desperately clinging to guns.   Including the Republican retards on the Supreme Court.  The country has gone downhill the past decade or two, especially when dunce Trump ran amok as President.  Sad.

Guns under the public will never bring any good

[radiochaser]

On 6/24/2022 at 11:52 AM, placeholder said:

But the fact remains the the clause about the well regulated militia was judged to be relevant so the right to bear arms was far from being absolute. or nearly so.

As I understand the decision, from my reading as well as others who wrote about the decision, the short barreled shotgun was deemed an illegal firearm, not because of a well regulated militia, but because it was not considered to be a firearm that would be used by the military. 

As to the militia, back then, after the United States became a new nation, someone wrote the question, who is the militia, and answered his own question with, it is the whole of the people.  Meaning, the militia are the citizens of the United States of America.  

   

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, radiochaser said:

As I understand the decision, from my reading as well as others who wrote about the decision, the short barreled shotgun was deemed an illegal firearm, not because of a well regulated militia, but because it was not considered to be a firearm that would be used by the military. 

As to the militia, back then, after the United States became a new nation, someone wrote the question, who is the militia, and answered his own question with, it is the whole of the people.  Meaning, the militia are the citizens of the United States of America.  

   

Really? Without the clause stipulating the necessity of a well regulated militia, what makes you think that the Supreme Court could possibly decide this way based solely on the characteristics of the weapon? Is one if the Supreme Court's functions to decide on the suitability of equipment purchased by the government? Would this authority also extend say to the Postal Service?  Where else in the Constitution would there be any justification for their position in this case? Of course their decision is based on the necessity of a well regulated militia.

[Longwood50]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

That was the point of my anecdote

Yes, I understood.  Obviously you have some experience with the border and how contraband freely flows.  Make firearms less available in the USA and the flow will come from other countries who will see the opportunity to price the guns high and sell them because of the scarcity. 

 

[peter zwart]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

 

Sure, say that also to the many parents that lost their kids when some idiot start shooting in a crowd. Where there are guns their is trouble. Where there guns and empty heads their is even more trouble. About these kind of things i almost never read about in most countries where fire arms are forbidden.

[onthedarkside]

A post with entirely unsourced and unsubstantiated gun claims has been removed, along with another post from a non-news media website.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

Years ago in California in California an auto parts store employee was fired.  He threatened to come back and kill all the employees and anyone else in the store.  He did go back, well armed with several pistols, a bunch of magazines and the store was filled with customers.  

The fired employee yelled something about killing everyone in the store starting with you and he shot at an employee and missed.   The employee that was shot at told the police that a customer who was waiting for his turn, pulled a pistol from a concealed shoulder holster and shot the would be killer in the back of the head.  

Due to the small number of legal concealed carry permits issued in California, law enforcement was able to determine the customer who shot the would be killer, was carrying a concealed weapon illegally!   This was mentioned in the news paper report as well as something about the police wanting any witness' to come forth, that could identify the man who had an illegally concealed weapon,  so they could arrest the man, for carrying a concealed firearm, without a legal license to do so. 

 

These incidents are few and far between. More of than not a security guard or police office is killed first. Very often, armed people are killed without warning and never get a chance to shoot back. Statistics show fewer gun homicides in countries where guns are rare. Criminals are less likely to kill a person who is likely to be unarmed.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

As I understand the decision, from my reading as well as others who wrote about the decision, the short barreled shotgun was deemed an illegal firearm, not because of a well regulated militia, but because it was not considered to be a firearm that would be used by the military. 

As to the militia, back then, after the United States became a new nation, someone wrote the question, who is the militia, and answered his own question with, it is the whole of the people.  Meaning, the militia are the citizens of the United States of America.  

   

When the second amendment was written, all men had to belong to a militia and own a firearm as part of that membership.

[radiochaser]

5 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Yes, I understood.  Obviously you have some experience with the border and how contraband freely flows.  Make firearms less available in the USA and the flow will come from other countries who will see the opportunity to price the guns high and sell them because of the scarcity. 

 

Yes, I am a retired Federal Agent and worked to provide assistance to other Federal Law Enforcement agencies.  My experience is a bit dated as to the technology used, but the activities that were monitored and reported on are an ongoing issue. 

The general public is woefully lacking in the knowledge of what is actually transpiring on the American / Mexican border.   It is also not just the country borders.  There is a lot of smuggling of contraband by sea and air.  I worked in all areas!  

[radiochaser]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

These incidents are few and far between. More of than not a security guard or police office is killed first. Very often, armed people are killed without warning and never get a chance to shoot back. Statistics show fewer gun homicides in countries where guns are rare. Criminals are less likely to kill a person who is likely to be unarmed.

Criminals are less likely to commit crimes in areas where it is unknown who is or is not carrying a firearm.  

By the way, what is your area of expertise in law enforcement that gives you inside knowledge?  I am curious about that!

In my case, I was a Federal Agent that provided assistance to small city police all the way up to working with the Secret Service when they were guarding politicians, including Presidents!  As I replied to another post, I also worked with law enforcement agencies that provided border protection for land, sea, and air.  
 

[radiochaser]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

These incidents are few and far between. More of than not a security guard or police office is killed first. Very often, armed people are killed without warning and never get a chance to shoot back. Statistics show fewer gun homicides in countries where guns are rare. Criminals are less likely to kill a person who is likely to be unarmed.

I disagree that the incidents are as few and far between as you imply.   

If you have an agenda, to remove firearms from the general public, excluding law enforcement and military, would you broadcast the number of times that one person has saved multiple lives, or would you publish stories, ad nauseum, about incidents where multiple people are killed?

[Credo]

4 minutes ago, radiochaser said:

I disagree that the incidents are as few and far between as you imply.   

If you have an agenda, to remove firearms from the general public, excluding law enforcement and military, would you broadcast the number of times that one person has saved multiple lives, or would you publish stories, ad nauseum, about incidents where multiple people are killed?

Gee, I wonder why all the countries that have largely removed guns from the citizenry have so few gun deaths?  I am suspecting you just may have an agenda.

 

[radiochaser]

9 minutes ago, Credo said:

Gee, I wonder why all the countries that have largely removed guns from the citizenry have so few gun deaths?  I am suspecting you just may have an agenda.

 

Yes, I do. 

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, radiochaser said:

Years ago in California in California an auto parts store employee was fired.  He threatened to come back and kill all the employees and anyone else in the store.  He did go back, well armed with several pistols, a bunch of magazines and the store was filled with customers.  

The fired employee yelled something about killing everyone in the store starting with you and he shot at an employee and missed.   The employee that was shot at told the police that a customer who was waiting for his turn, pulled a pistol from a concealed shoulder holster and shot the would be killer in the back of the head.  

Due to the small number of legal concealed carry permits issued in California, law enforcement was able to determine the customer who shot the would be killer, was carrying a concealed weapon illegally!   This was mentioned in the news paper report as well as something about the police wanting any witness' to come forth, that could identify the man who had an illegally concealed weapon,  so they could arrest the man, for carrying a concealed firearm, without a legal license to do so. 

 

When you provide a credible source for this story it can be discussed.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, radiochaser said:

As I understand the decision, from my reading as well as others who wrote about the decision, the short barreled shotgun was deemed an illegal firearm, not because of a well regulated militia, but because it was not considered to be a firearm that would be used by the military. 

As to the militia, back then, after the United States became a new nation, someone wrote the question, who is the militia, and answered his own question with, it is the whole of the people.  Meaning, the militia are the citizens of the United States of America.  

   

Do you think the citizens of the United States are well regulated?

 

Do you think the unnamed person who came up with this definition was an expert on the Constitution?

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Yes, I understood.  Obviously you have some experience with the border and how contraband freely flows.  Make firearms less available in the USA and the flow will come from other countries who will see the opportunity to price the guns high and sell them because of the scarcity. 

 

Why isn't there a thriving firearms smuggling business in Canada?  Europe?  Japan?

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Why isn't there a thriving firearms smuggling business in Canada?  Europe?  Japan?

Who says there isn't.  It maybe just doesn't make the MSM, and used as a distraction & to divide the masses.

 

I suggest you google gun smuggling into Canada & Japan, and you're opinion may change.  I didn't bother with EU, as not wishing to waste any more time on the subject.

 

Murders and violent crimes across the board, across the USA, trends downward, consistently every year (pre-covid & BLM), BUT, you don't see that every day in MSM.

 

Just because it isn't in MSM doesn't mean it's not happening, just not reported as much.

Edited June 27, 2022 by KhunLA

[heybruce]

40 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Who says there isn't.  It maybe just doesn't make the MSM, and used as a distraction & to divide the masses.

 

I suggest you google gun smuggling into Canada & Japan, and you're opinion may change.  I didn't bother with EU, as not wishing to waste any more time on the subject.

 

Murders and violent crimes across the board, across the USA, trends downward, consistently every year (pre-covid & BLM), BUT, you don't see that every day in MSM.

 

Just because it isn't in MSM doesn't mean it's not happening, just not reported as much.

This is how it works.  I maintain there isn't a thriving firearms smuggling business in Canada, Europe, and Japan.  I'm not saying there isn't any smuggling, just nothing that would arm these countries to anywhere near the degree of the US.

 

I am not obligated to prove a non-existence, which is impossible.  You must prove there is major smuggling in these countries.

 

In other words, you google it.

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

This is how it works.  I maintain there isn't a thriving firearms smuggling business in Canada, Europe, and Japan.  I'm not saying there isn't any smuggling, just nothing that would arm these countries to anywhere near the degree of the US.

 

I am not obligated to prove a non-existence, which is impossible.  You must prove there is major smuggling in these countries.

 

In other words, you google it.

I did just that, and saw a couple blips stating Canada & Japan struggling to control smuggling of firearms.   To what extent, don't know, don't care, as just caught the headline and highlighted text.

 

I live in TH  .... Canada, Japan & EU don't interest me, and would never even consider visiting or living in the latter 2.

 

As a Yank, I love the Constitution, 2nd Amendment & firearms.  Don't care or need to justify that to anyone.

 

Don't really care what others think.  Never did, never will.

Edited June 28, 2022 by KhunLA

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I did just that, and saw a couple blips stating Canada & Japan struggling to control smuggling of firearms.   To what extent, don't know, don't care, as just caught the headline and highlighted text.

 

I live in TH  .... Canada, Japan & EU don't interest me, and would never even consider visiting or living in the latter 2.

 

As a Yank, I love the Constitution, 2nd Amendment & firearms.  Don't care or need to justify that to anyone.

 

Don't really care what others think.  Never did, never will.

A couple of blips?  Wow, your standards for evidence are low!

 

Canada, a country where there are a lot of hunters, has less than one third the number of guns per capita as the US.  Other countries much less.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

Apparently smuggled guns are not flooding any of these countries with weapons.

[KhunLA]

Just now, heybruce said:

A couple of blips?  Wow, your standards for evidence are low!

 

Canada, a country where there are a lot of hunters, has less than one third the number of guns per capita as the US.  Other countries much less.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

Apparently smuggled guns are not flooding any of these countries with weapons.

Since I don't care, that was enough for me to realize, they may have a problem, just not worthy of MSM.

 

Your repeated silliness ... congrats .... IGNORED

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

As a Yank, I love the Constitution, 2nd Amendment & firearms.  Don't care or need to justify that to anyone.

So you're claiming that being an American is the reason you love the 2nd Amendment? Do you think most Americans agree with your take on it? And if they don't are they still Americans?

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So you're claiming that being an American is the reason you love the 2nd Amendment? Do you think most Americans agree with your take on it? And if they don't are they still Americans?

Apparently they still do, as the 2nd Amendment has not been changed, and their are 10s of millions of legal firearm owners.

 

Every state allows for the purchase & carrying of firearms.  What more evidence does anyone need.

 

Apparently Yanks like & want their firearms.  Unplug from MSM, take a peek at the real world.

 

Remember 12th grade High School, POD (Problems of Democracy) class and the anti gun teacher polled the class by raising our hands ... "how many have guns in your home ?" .... 30 students, and I'd guess 28 raised their hand.

 

Actually surprised me .... shocked & ruined her day ... ????

[placeholder]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Apparently they still do, as the 2nd Amendment has not been changed, and their are 10s of millions of legal firearm owners.

 

Every state allows for the purchase & carrying of firearms.  What more evidence does anyone need.

 

Apparently Yanks like & want their firearms.  Unplug from MSM, take a peek at the real world.

 

Remember 12th grade High School, POD (Problems of Democracy) class and the anti gun teacher polled the class by raising our hands ... "how many have guns in your home ?" .... 30 students, and I'd guess 28 raised their hand.

 

Actually surprised me .... shocked & ruined her day ... ????

Fox News Poll: Voters voice strong support for gun reform

On specific gun proposals, voters are most supportive of requiring background checks on all gun buyers (88%) and improving enforcement of existing gun laws (84%).

Another 8 in 10 favor raising the legal age to buy assault weapons to 21 (82%), passing "red flag" laws that allow police to take guns from people shown to be a danger (81%), background checks on buying ammunition (80%), mental health checks (78%), and raising the legal age to buy any gun to 21 (78%)...

The only proposals tested that lack majority support are allowing teachers to carry guns at schools (48%) and encouraging more citizens to carry a weapon (45%).

https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-voters-voice-support-gun-reform

And the Fox poll differs little from virtually all other polls taken on this subject.

 

 

[radiochaser]

On 6/28/2022 at 4:51 AM, heybruce said:

Do you think the citizens of the United States are well regulated?

 

Do you think the unnamed person who came up with this definition was an expert on the Constitution?

Yes, I do think that he had very good  understanding into the Constitution.  He was a delegate to the U.S. Constitution Convention!  He was also influential in the writing of the Bill of Rights. 

Who are the militia, they are the whole of the people.  And the people are the citizens of the United States.   

 "well regulated" refer to proficiency and top-notch training. "This was written at a time when there was relatively little in the way of formal training in marksmanship ...

But even the people who are not well regulated (i.e. trained) are still part of the militia, the untrained militia still being part of the whole of the people. 

 

[KhunLA]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:43 AM, placeholder said:

Fox News Poll: Voters voice strong support for gun reform

On specific gun proposals, voters are most supportive of requiring background checks on all gun buyers (88%) and improving enforcement of existing gun laws (84%).

Another 8 in 10 favor raising the legal age to buy assault weapons to 21 (82%), passing "red flag" laws that allow police to take guns from people shown to be a danger (81%), background checks on buying ammunition (80%), mental health checks (78%), and raising the legal age to buy any gun to 21 (78%)...

The only proposals tested that lack majority support are allowing teachers to carry guns at schools (48%) and encouraging more citizens to carry a weapon (45%).

https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-voters-voice-support-gun-reform

And the Fox poll differs little from virtually all other polls taken on this subject.

I would vote exactly the same way.   Matter of fact, I've posted on the forum, those restrictions aren't quite enough, and I'd recommend more.

 

Voting for better firearm restrictions doesn't mean they are against firearms.  Just means they are intelligent.

 

I don't know any gun owner that is a fan of the NRA, or doesn't want to close every loophole.  My real world experience of being a firearms dealer for 20 years.  1975 to 1995 in PA, USA (Philly metro)

 

Yours experience & opinions may differ.  

 

 

[placeholder]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:58 AM, KhunLA said:

I would vote exactly the same way.   Matter of fact, I've posted on the forum, those restrictions aren't quite enough, and I'd recommend more.

 

Voting for better firearm restrictions doesn't mean they are against firearms.  Just means they are intelligent.

 

I don't know any gun owner that is a fan of the NRA, or doesn't want to close every loophole.  My real world experience of being a firearms dealer for 20 years.  1975 to 1995 in PA, USA (Philly metro)

 

Yours experience & opinions may differ.

But the Supreme Court disagrees with you. So  since you claim to love the 2nd Amendment apparently it means something different to you than it does to them.

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But the Supreme Court disagrees with you. So  since you claim to love the 2nd Amendment apparently it means something different to you than it does to them.

That's fine also ... it's a work in progress.

[heybruce]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:52 AM, radiochaser said:

Yes, I do think that he had very good  understanding into the Constitution.  He was a delegate to the U.S. Constitution Convention!  He was also influential in the writing of the Bill of Rights. 

Who are the militia, they are the whole of the people.  And the people are the citizens of the United States.   

 "well regulated" refer to proficiency and top-notch training. "This was written at a time when there was relatively little in the way of formal training in marksmanship ...

But even the people who are not well regulated (i.e. trained) are still part of the militia, the untrained militia still being part of the whole of the people. 
 

If you won't say who "he" is, everything you say "he" said is suspect.  Try referencing your sources.

[radiochaser]

On 6/27/2022 at 9:25 PM, ozimoron said:

When the second amendment was written, all men had to belong to a militia and own a firearm as part of that membership.

I posted the following as a response to someone else's post.  But I think it may be a good response here, in some ways.  As to your claim that all men had to own a firearm, to be part of the militia, I will disagree.  Not all people in that time period would have had or needed a firearm.  There were many trades in which a firearm would have been a useless tool.   Not all people hunted, just as not all people farmed, nor did all people make cloth, or eating utensils, etc.  

But when necessary, those with out firearms could be called upon to join the active militia and they would be provided firearms by the government.  As not all firearms at the time were privately owned, even though there were plenty that was.   Did you know that many of the cannon that was used in the revolutionary war were also privately owned cannon and provided to the government to use in the war against the British Governments military?  

. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by onthedarkside
duplicate of prior post removed