The Great Thai Mask debate: Dr Taveesin asks the public in Thailand to continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, transam said:

And infected folk don't know they are infected for well over a week...

How's that relevant to what Fauci said?

[transam]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

How's that relevant to what Fauci said?

It's not, just pointing out a fact for readers, folk who do not wear a mask and have caught C19, may pass it on because the symptoms don't show up for over a week, or so I understand....????

[Tony125]

13 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Let's take the advice of the official US expert ... oh wait, he can't seem to make up his mind.

https://www.newsweek.com/fauci-said-masks-not-really-effective-keeping-out-virus-email-reveals-1596703

 

experts say wear & expects say, don't bother.  I think I'll just do what I want.

That link you posted from Newsweek is a reprint from what the Dr said in Feb of 2020.  

 

"Dr. Anthony Fauci wrote in February 2020 that store-bought face masks would not be very effective at protecting against the COVID-19 pandemic" 

 

That was before anyone knew a lot about Covid. Also was at a time that Fauci said that he and CDC did not recomend masks as they knew that there would be a run on buying masks and they didn't have enough for medical personal. The article link below

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-mask-advice-was-because-doctors-shortages-from-the-start-2020-6

Edited July 16, 2022 by Tony125

[Tony125]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Fauci wrote: "Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection

He wrote that when they were trying to limit a run on N95 masks (respirators) so there would be enough for Medical Staff

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-mask-advice-was-because-doctors-shortages-from-the-start-2020-6

 

How Wearing a Mask Can Help Protect You Even If No One Else Wears One

https://time.com/6168672/how-wearing-mask-protects-you/

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Tony125 said:

He wrote that when they were trying to limit a run on N95 masks (respirators) so there would be enough for Medical Staff

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-mask-advice-was-because-doctors-shortages-from-the-start-2020-6

 

How Wearing a Mask Can Help Protect You Even If No One Else Wears One

https://time.com/6168672/how-wearing-mask-protects-you/

What he wrote was true then and remains true today. It's also true that Fauci did want people to reserve masks for those who needed them the most when there was a severe shortage but that has nothing to do with the efficacy of masks.

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, transam said:

And infected folk don't know they are infected for well over a week...

Back to the Asymptomatic issue just like when we started with the Covid Pandemic, and why masks were mandated.  Full circle it appears....

[Tony125]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

What he wrote was true then and remains true today. It's also true that Fauci did want people to reserve masks for those who needed them the most when there was a severe shortage but that has nothing to do with the efficacy of masks.

Yes it does. Guess you were too lazy to read my link;

Anthony Fauci said the public was initially told not to wear masks to stop COVID-19 because of shortages of PPE for doctors.

He said the government's shift in advice was because of "changing circumstances" and new research.

 

They did studies later from 2020 about the efficacy of different type masks

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Tony125 said:

Yes it does. Guess you were too lazy to read my link;

Anthony Fauci said the public was initially told not to wear masks to stop COVID-19 because of shortages of PPE for doctors.

He said the government's shift in advice was because of "changing circumstances" and new research.

 

They did studies later from 2020 about the efficacy of different type masks

I did read your link in it's entirety. My point that what Fauci said about masks remains true and had nothing to do with other circumstances existing at the time.

 

Even the standard blue clinical masks work well in preventing others from getting infected.

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, mania said:

Meanwhile in the free world we were having a blast on Alpe D' Huez yesterday ..see all the masks?

I would not copy anything the French did wrt Covid as they had the highest infection numbers in Europe!

[Tony125]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I did read your link in it's entirety. My point that what Fauci said about masks remains true and had nothing to do with other circumstances existing at the time.

 

Even the standard blue clinical masks work well in preventing others from getting infected.

The standard blue surgical masks are no where near as  protective as N95-Kn95 respirators

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220110/Efficiency-of-surgical-masks-and-N95-respirators-in-lowering-SARS-CoV-2-transmission.aspx

 

 Surgical masks approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are intended for use in hazardous environments created by dangerous fluids, droplets, splashes, and sprays, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH). However, respiratory protection by surgical masks against small airborne particles is very low.

 

On the contrary, N95 masks are described by the NIOSH as a filtration system that retains at least 95% of various sized airborne particles ranging from aerosols to large droplets and reduces the vulnerability of the user. Additionally, N95 masks have extra layers of protection compared to surgical masks.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

The standard blue surgical masks are no where near as  protective as N95-Kn95 respirators

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220110/Efficiency-of-surgical-masks-and-N95-respirators-in-lowering-SARS-CoV-2-transmission.aspx

 

 Surgical masks approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are intended for use in hazardous environments created by dangerous fluids, droplets, splashes, and sprays, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH). However, respiratory protection by surgical masks against small airborne particles is very low.

 

On the contrary, N95 masks are described by the NIOSH as a filtration system that retains at least 95% of various sized airborne particles ranging from aerosols to large droplets and reduces the vulnerability of the user. Additionally, N95 masks have extra layers of protection compared to surgical masks.

Evidence shows that, yes, masks prevent COVID-19 – and surgical masks are the way to go

 

https://theconversation.com/evidence-shows-that-yes-masks-prevent-covid-19-and-surgical-masks-are-the-way-to-go-167963

[BangkokReady]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Evidence shows that, yes, masks prevent COVID-19 – and surgical masks are the way to go

I've used both and there's no way surgical masks have the same level of airtight seal as the superior K94.

 

Without being airtight the actual properties of the mask are a lot less significant.

 

Most surgical masks are worn with gaping holes around the noes as the sides. They might protect from droplets, but not aerosols..

[Tony125]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Evidence shows that, yes, masks prevent COVID-19 – and surgical masks are the way to go

 

https://theconversation.com/evidence-shows-that-yes-masks-prevent-covid-19-and-surgical-masks-are-the-way-to-go-167963

Do you read your own articles?  It states that surgical masks (you called blue mask) are helpful "but" N95's are the best.

"high-quality surgical masks or masks with even higher filtration efficiency and better fit – such as KF94s, KN95s and N95s – are the most effective at preventing COVID-19."

[ozimoron]

Just now, BangkokReady said:

I've used both and there's no way surgical masks have the same level of airtight seal as the superior K94.

 

Without being airtight the actual properties of the mask are a lot less significant.

 

Most surgical masks are worn with gaping holes around the noes as the sides. They might protect from droplets, but not aerosols..

They still work in reducing the spread of those droplets. Nobody is claiming that KN95 masks aren't superior, the point is that even the blue surgical masks make a significant difference.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Tony125 said:

Do you read your own articles?  It states that surgical masks (you called blue mask) are helpful "but" N95's are the best.

"high-quality surgical masks or masks with even higher filtration efficiency and better fit – such as KF94s, KN95s and N95s – are the most effective at preventing COVID-19."

I only ever said that surgical masks work.

[onthedarkside]

Several off-topic posts and several flaming posts have been removed along with replies.

 

[JimmyJ]

"ASEAN NOW reports that in Bangkok the very great majority of Thais both in the main streets as well as inside shopping centers and stores are still wearing masks."

 

JIMMYJ is happy to report likewise in Chiang Mai.

 

[ThailandRyan]

Just now, JimmyJ said:

"ASEAN NOW reports that in Bangkok the very great majority of Thais both in the main streets as well as inside shopping centers and stores are still wearing masks."

 

JIMMYJ is happy to report likewise in Chiang Mai.

 

As I stated yesterday and from the pictures I posted it appears that it has been put back in place in a few of the larger venues like Malls, that is mask wearing.  Of course this makes some people really upset, but it is what it is.

[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Nobody is claiming that KN95 masks aren't superior, the point is that even the blue surgical masks make a significant difference.

I agree that surgical masks are better than no masks, but your wording: "surgical masks are the way to go", having also discussed 95s and 94s, does suggest that you think surgical masks are superior. Perhaps you just mistyped.

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

I agree that surgical masks are better than no masks, but your wording: "surgical masks are the way to go", having also discussed 95s and 94s, does suggest that you think surgical masks are superior. Perhaps you just mistyped.

I didn't mistype, I quoted. The quote isn't suggesting that surgical masks are the best, rather that they are the most practical way to wear a mask and still achieve a respectable reduction in risk, both from infection and transmission.

 

I wear surgical masks because K95's are too hot in the tropics and much more expensive.

Edited July 16, 2022 by ozimoron

[atpeace]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:56 PM, vandeventer said:

I think I am the only one in my area that hasn't got covid maybe I should just take off my n95 and see if it's just the mask?

Those that believe masks are irrelevant are wrong IMO and the evidence does seem to support this belief.  Just for arguments sake, lets say it reduces risk by 40% inside enclosed areas and the benefit outside is pretty much non-existent with very rare exceptions.   The 40% increased odds of catching Covid for me are not a concern. 

 

99% of us are going to get Covid and probably multiple times over the next 5 years.  It's up to the individual to mitigate the risk and feel the time to impose restrictions on the public has past.  If you are unhealthy by choice and at the same time adamant that others wear masks, then you have you are simply a hypocrite.  Nothing wrong with being unhealthy morally and it might be the optimal lifestyle but stop having the healthy support your lifestyle.

[atpeace]

5 hours ago, transam said:

It's not, just pointing out a fact for readers, folk who do not wear a mask and have caught C19, may pass it on because the symptoms don't show up for over a week, or so I understand....????

Understood but this is where Fauci screwed the pooch.  He has a habit of telling us what he thinks is beneficial regardless of it being accurate.  If he preferred more masks then he would just tell us that  new variants were symptomless for weeks and hence the need to wear masks.  As for me, I want to believe him but find it a challenge.  

[Senior Player]

 

A mask doesn’t protect your eyes, no matter if you're wearing an N95 or a piece of surgical cloth. This tends to be overlooked when championing compulsory mask-wearing. Personally, I think it's all part of behavioural science and the first hurdle in getting people to comply and obey the stricter rules that will follow. This was probably one of the major reasons why so many preeminent scientists, including Dr. Fauci, changed their stance on mask efficacy by mid 2020, understanding the research carried out by the UK's “Nudge Unit” on how people would react psychologically and respond behaviourally to the new interventions.
 

Why is it important that a mask doesn't protect your eyes, you might ask? Well, if we make a comparison with the common cold, you can still catch the virus through your eyes. When an infected person coughs or sneezes, they release tiny droplets into the air. The virus can travel to the nose and throat through a duct that links the eyes and nasal cavity, where it then starts the process of causing an infection. Even if you happen to sneeze wearing one of these flimsy surgical masks, tiny droplets could still escape and get released into the air, especially if the mask is worn incorrectly or taken off when eating or drinking. Also, if these droplets get on to your hands, you can pass them into your eyes by touching them. So do masks give the wearer a false sense of protection?

 

That said, should you really be getting worked into a lather about the new variants? We already know that the new Omicron variants (including BA.4 and BA.5) are more transmissible but do NOT appear to lead to more severe illness. That's what all the recent articles have stated and the data appears to back it up. I've had it myself recently and I can say as a 60-year-old living in England I found it rather mild. So why the scaremongering all of a sudden?

 

I'll leave that for you to ponder, but I will add there's a new Moderna jab coming out in September which is purported to target the BA.5 variant. Considering the rate that these variants mutate, I would've thought we'd have moved onto BA.6 and BA.7 by then (or even Sigma), ready for the next scare campaign about needing the next jab... and so on and so forth.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Senior Player said:

That said, should you really be getting worked into a lather about the new variants?

Re your various comments above:

 

1.  From everything I've read and seen, transmission of COVID via eye exposure is a rare occurrence, and the vast majority of infections occur through the traditional respiratory routes, where good quality N95 type masks worn and fitted properly provide good protection.

 

2. The new generation Omicron targeted vaccines may be on track for initial approval, probably in the U.S. in the fall or toward the end of the year, but that doesn't automatically mean they're going to become approved and available in Thailand just as soon, based on past history of such things.

 

3. Regarding the latest Omicron variants, they don't need to cause worse health problems than the prior Omicron variants in order to cause more problems, because they're also more transmissible.

 

So, to illustrate that, if just for illustrative purposes, only 1 in 10 of people infected with the earlier Omicron variants had substantial health problems.... But then you take that same 1 in 10 rate and apply it to the BA 4 and 5 variants, that tend to infect much much larger numbers of people, suddenly the numbers of people with substantial health problems ending up in hospital start getting bigger and bigger, solely by virtue of increased transmission.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Puccini]

What matters most is keeping the number of patients who need treatment in intensive care units lower than the number of available beds in these units. If experience has shown that wearing masks helps substantially to achieve this, so be it.

 

I would not like to be in charge of this.

[Tony125]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I didn't mistype, I quoted. The quote isn't suggesting that surgical masks are the best, rather that they are the most practical way to wear a mask and still achieve a respectable reduction in risk, both from infection and transmission.

 

I wear surgical masks because K95's are too hot in the tropics and much more expensive.

K95's are too hot to wear?  You would only be wearing them on Air conditioned train, 7--11, Freezing cold Mall ,or air con taxi. And too expensive, really?   3 M the best brand are 5 for 100 baht and other no name brands are  even cheaper.  Below photo 20 for 79 baht.

[mancub]

29 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

K95's are too hot to wear?  You would only be wearing them on Air conditioned train, 7--11, Freezing cold Mall ,or air con taxi. And too expensive, really?   3 M the best brand are 5 for 100 baht and other no name brands are  even cheaper.  Below photo 20 for 79 baht.

Some folk, however, travel by non-aircon bus, visit outdoor markets and have shopping malls that are more stifling than freezing. 

[Tony125]

6 minutes ago, mancub said:

Some folk, however, travel by non-aircon bus, visit outdoor markets and have shopping malls that are more stifling than freezing. 

Then I guess they would have to take their chances with regular surgical masks if they find the N95's too uncomfortable. Have seen those on trains and other places doubling them up as well or taping the sides so they fit better.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Tony125

[daveAustin]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:01 PM, webfact said:

Dr Taveesin said that despite the earlier mask edict, face protections are still a good way to prevent infection of Covid and other lung diseases.

 

That's great for colds and such until your immune system is so ill-equipped to deal with a proper threat because it has not has exposure. The human did not evolve with a F mask on its face! Jeez! At least these learned folk are not talking about wholesale mask wearing. 

[BangkokHank]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Evidence shows that, yes, masks prevent COVID-19 – and surgical masks are the way to go

 

https://theconversation.com/evidence-shows-that-yes-masks-prevent-covid-19-and-surgical-masks-are-the-way-to-go-167963

I stopped reading the article you posted at this paragraph:

 

"Recently, I was part of the largest randomized controlled trial to date testing the effectiveness of mask-wearing. The study has yet to be peer reviewed but has been well received by the medical community."

 

You should be suspended for posting un-peer-reviewed misinformation. Or is peer review only necessary for studies that go against the official narrative?