Cremation of expat in Thailand

[ifmu]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:50 PM, cjinchiangrai said:

Repatriating a body just to waste real estate is really dumb. I would be more interested in paperwork to be an organ donor.

donor  .... is that a thing in thailand?

[unblocktheplanet]

I have decided I don't want to add more carbon to future generations. I intend to be buried naked on my farm. Other than a death certificate, all that's required is permission of the phuyai ban and, of course, a small honourarium. Once one get the nai yok involved, the price goes up.

 

I have no lawyer but I have a coöperative personal physician.

[dddave]

On 7/18/2022 at 2:54 PM, Excel said:

I presume you are living on your own  ? You say you have made a will, has it been lodged with a lawyer acting as your executer in Thailand ?

One point worth considering is that should you unfortunately pass away on your own that means your body may lay undisturbed for a while until perhaps someone detects bad odours and then calls the police. Given the nature of the RTP any valuables you may have ( and listed as goods and chattels in your will) may well  "disappear" shortly after the discovery of your body and most certainly before the reading of any will.

Just food for thought as perhaps you should consider giving them away whilst you are still living, at least that way you will have peace of mind in knowing that people have benefitted whom you wanted to benefit.

Of course if you do not live on your own then it will be up to your partner/friend to obtain the appropriate documents for your cremation.

This exact scenario occurred with a friends sudden passing in the apartment in which he lived alone.  Body not discovered until the odor made it obvious.

Police called, doors left open, property totally looted of anything of value and a lot of worthless stuff as well.  Autopsy was required, body held until a lone daughter was located by embassy.  She was totally useless and became a huge hinderance to getting anything else done.

Storage charges mounted and it became a financial burden to his friends.  Took two months to finally have him cremated and ashes dispersed.  Once the daughter found out there was nothing left for her, she accused us all of looting his accounts and lodged a complaint with his embassy. There were no funded accounts, just the one in which he received his pension which didn't come close to covering anything.  The embassy actually handled her pretty well.

[dddave]

8 hours ago, ifmu said:

donor  .... is that a thing in thailand?

I believe medical schools will accept cadavers.  I don't know if one can make prior arrangements.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 7/19/2022 at 5:45 PM, simon43 said:

Not an expat cremation.  My Thai niece died 4 weeks ago at 18 years old.  The temple wake lasted 3 days, with payment required for electricity, PA system, monks chanting, wood for cremation, food, drink etc.  (It was the main cremation temple for the amphur). About 50 Thai people attended, including both the leader (Naiyok) and deputy Naiyok of the Amphur, (because it was such an unusual/sad/unnecessary death - untreated TB), also hospital doctor and nurses.

 

The total cost was about 20,000 baht....

 

Ya, I was going to say, the costs can vary widely depending on where/what temple is involved, and how much/long of ceremonial stuff, if any, the family/survivors want to undertake. As examples:

 

--My wife's Thai father passed away last year upcountry, and he was cremated with a simple ceremony at a local, nothing special temple. My wife indicates the temple's fee for handling the cremation and some required accessory stuff was under 10,000 baht.

 

--At the other end, a close Thai acquaintance from a reasonably well-to-do Bangkok family died and was cremated about 18-months ago at a well-known, prominent Bangkok temple. The family rented a temple room for a 7-night long wake with a group of monks praying there every night, and guests provided food, etc... The total bill for all that including the cremation ceremony on the final day, I'm told, came to over 100,000 baht.

 

[scorecard]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:48 PM, HarrySeaman said:

Excellent point.

 

When a Canadian neighbor of mine passed away his significant other from the USA was visiting.  The partner was emotionally torn apart and didn't know what to do.  When I asked if the deceased had a will the answer was yes, and his partner was the executor.  My advice was to immediately call the attorney who made out the will and make sure he came to the house before calling the police.  Because of the attorney being present nothing went missing and because of the attorney and Thai friends the cremation, etc. went smoothly.

 

I don't know it it is currently in effect but only a couple of years ago if a USA citizen passed away outside of a hospital an autopsy was required.  This meant transporting the body to Bangkok for the autopsy.  If there was no executor the body was placed in storage until there was one to pay the transportation, autopsy fees, storage fees, and arrange for a cremation or funeral.  If a relative of the deceased was appointed the executor IN A THAI WILL and came to Thailand they could pay the fees and take care of disposing of the remains.  The worst case was if there was no executor and the family refused to pay.  At that point the US Government went after the family for the costs.

 

I'm aware of an Amrican who was found dead in his rented house in Sth Pattaya about 5 years back. Quite an unpleasant rude fellow, didn't have one close friend in Pattaya. Well known for inviting himself to join acquaintenances planning to dine out, but without asking if it was 'convenient' if he joined.  Also well know for inventing numerous excuses to avoid sharing the bill.

 

Several people (Thai and farang) came to the police informing that they were owed money by the deceased. Police searched the house, found no will and no cash.

 

Police asked US embassy to search for surviving family in the US. No result.

 

One Pattaya farang remembered the guy had mentioned a brother in the US. The spelling of the family name was unusual, and the Pattaya based farang quickly found the name in a US directory.

 

He called the number and the person who answered confirmed that he was the brother and said 'I want nothing whatever to do with him, I won't contribute to any costs and please don't call me again'.

 

Body remained in cold storage at a Thai police facility for several months, during which time the US embassy refused to take any action.

 

Ultimately the Pattaya police paid for a paupers very simple funeral.

 

[The Fugitive]

20 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

I'm aware of an Amrican who was found dead in his rented house in Sth Pattaya about 5 years back. Quite an unpleasant rude fellow, didn't have one close friend in Pattaya. Well known for inviting himself to join acquaintenances planning to dine out, but without asking if it was 'convenient' if he joined.  Also well know for inventing numerous excuses to avoid sharing the bill.

 

Several people (Thai and farang) came to the police informing that they were owed money by the deceased. Police searched the house, found no will and no cash.

 

Police asked US embassy to search for surviving family in the US. No result.

 

One Pattaya farang remembered the guy had mentioned a brother in the US. The spelling of the family name was unusual, and the Pattaya based farang quickly found the name in a US directory.

 

He called the number and the person who answered confirmed that he was the brother and said 'I want nothing whatever to do with him, I won't contribute to any costs and please don't call me again'.

 

Body remained in cold storage at a Thai police facility for several months, during which time the US embassy refused to take any action.

 

Ultimately the Pattaya police paid for a paupers very simple funeral.

 

Makes me ashamed to be a falang. I don't believe that his brother should be held liable for the sins of his oaf brother though. However, neither should the burden be placed upon the Thai's. Makes a case for compulsory insurance of some form IMHO.

[Nong Khai Man]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:32 PM, proton said:

Do they double charge for it?

Nah, Only The Farang Rate M8 !!

[Delight]

 Just a point of interest .

My friend of many years died last June

He died in a public hospital.

My interest at the time was to obtain a death certificate. He had left a UK will. His ex -wife wanted to pursue probate in the UK.

As I was not family ,obtaining this certificate proved to be impossible.

I was advised that as Pattaya has no facility to store bodies- his body (along with his passport) was shipped to Bangkok.

For certain I know that the British Embassy were advised.

Given that no family members visited Thailand to claim the body.

I assume the body was simply cremated in Bangkok.

End of story.

As an aside the hospital bill (350,000 Baht) remains unpaid.

 

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, Delight said:

 Just a point of interest .

My friend of many years died last June

He died in a public hospital.

My interest at the time was to obtain a death certificate. He had left a UK will. His ex -wife wanted to pursue probate in the UK.

As I was not family ,obtaining this certificate proved to be impossible.

I was advised that as Pattaya has no facility to store bodies- his body (along with his passport) was shipped to Bangkok.

For certain I know that the British Embassy were advised.

Given that no family members visited Thailand to claim the body.

I assume the body was simply cremated in Bangkok.

End of story.

As an aside the hospital bill (350,000 Baht) remains unpaid.

 

Thanks for the useful information. Interesting that in the U.K. anyone can apply for a copy of someone's death certificate because it's a public record. That does make you think!  Sorry that the guy was a long-term friend. Also very sorry for the trouble that the Government hospital staff would have been in for allowing him to rack up such a bill. 

[FritsSikkink]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:24 AM, scorecard said:

I found the number of a funeral directors association for Australia and I called. Their instant response was 'this is not an appropriate time for you to be quibbling about payment for your mother's funeral, and you can always pay in instalments'.

  

Bunch of cheats, it is exactly the right time to talk about it then. Would have told them that they could expect a social media campaign against them.

[scorecard]

51 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Bunch of cheats, it is exactly the right time to talk about it then. Would have told them that they could expect a social media campaign against them.

A few weeks later another local person put a very negative comment on the fb page of the same funeral directors business, for the same business. I quickly confirmed I had the same experience. A local gov't onbudsman's office added a comment asking for the original poster and me to contact them. We both did. Ombudsman put a 'beware' comment on the website of the funeral home which could not be removed. A few days later I got a refund. 

[scorecard]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:24 PM, The Fugitive said:

Makes me ashamed to be a falang. I don't believe that his brother should be held liable for the sins of his oaf brother though. However, neither should the burden be placed upon the Thai's. Makes a case for compulsory insurance of some form IMHO.

The police made one last attempt to get someone to pay for the funeral; they contacted the deceased guys acquaintance (certainly not a friend) and asked him to arrange a collection to pay for a simple cremation, he refused.

 

Snr. Police guy mentioned that the police do have a fund for pauper cremations, and every year the cremations for deadbeat farangs is paid from this fund.  

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Thanks for the useful information. Interesting that in the U.K. anyone can apply for a copy of someone's death certificate because it's a public record. That does make you think!  Sorry that the guy was a long-term friend. Also very sorry for the trouble that the Government hospital staff would have been in for allowing him to rack up such a bill. 

Re the bill, I'm aware of a Nth. American passing away in a Pattaya hospital just a few weeks ago. He was in ICU for all of his last 5 or 6 months. 

 

When he became very ill the hospital accountant prepared documents to access his savings account (Thai bank), and the sick man signed it and it was correctly witnessed etc.

 

About every 5 days the hospital prepared a bill and took it along with the authority they held and got the funds transferred to their bank.

 

Later it became every 3 days and then every second day, then every day.

 

Bottom line when the guy died the hospital was left holding a bill for less than 24 hrs. 

[The Fugitive]

12 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Re the bill, I'm aware of a Nth. American passing away in a Pattaya hospital just a few weeks ago. He was in ICU for all of his last 5 or 6 months. 

 

When he became very ill the hospital accountant prepared documents to access his savings account (Thai bank), and the sick man signed it and it was correctly witnessed etc.

 

About every 5 days the hospital prepared a bill and took it along with the authority they held and got the funds transferred to their bank.

 

Later it became every 3 days and then every second day, then every day.

 

Bottom line when the guy died the hospital was left holding a bill for less than 24 hrs. 

Again, thanks for this valuable information which I'm sure will help others too. Might seem callous but can't blame the hospital for doing so. Presumably, if he had no savings or his account ran out then he would have been denied further I.T.U. treatment and moved onto a basic ward with other patients who were not expected to survive where he would have died sooner from his condition.

[MrMuddle]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:02 PM, TigerandDog said:

The format of a Thai will makes provision for you to dictate how your remains are disposed of .e.g. cremation, burial or repatriation to home country.

 

How many more threads on this topic have to appear before people realise how easy it is to sort these things out, AND you do not need a lawyer if you have nominated an executor in your Thai will.

You don't have to reply, it's not compulsory, you can always scroll on.

[NancyL]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:07 PM, The Fugitive said:

Again, thanks for this valuable information which I'm sure will help others too. Might seem callous but can't blame the hospital for doing so. Presumably, if he had no savings or his account ran out then he would have been denied further I.T.U. treatment and moved onto a basic ward with other patients who were not expected to survive where he would have died sooner from his condition.

No, the hospital wouldn't have done anything to hasten the patient's death if the funds ran out.  Instead, they would have approached relatives, friends, anyone who had visited him, etc about paying the bill.  Once a life-saving or life-prolonging procedure is started in Thailand it isn't stopped unless the patient is clearly without brain activity, and then only if relatives insist.  It's very difficult to "pull the plug" in this Buddhist country and a hospital won't do it simply for lack of payment.

[blackshadow]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:35 PM, scorecard said:

 

 

Yes they cremate the body twice, to be doubly sure the person is totally dead!

 

That means of course double charges for coffins, firewood and for fire starters.

U forgot all the MONKS and food !!!

[EVENKEEL]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:13 PM, brianthainess said:

I'm very surprised that some wats still use wood for cremations, My local wats use electric or gas.

In Isaan where I attended twice they used wood in an outside clearing. It was thee place.

[The Fugitive]

11 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

In Isaan where I attended twice they used wood in an outside clearing. It was thee place.

Six temples in my small town South of Khon Kaen. All wood burning. Know of one temple in another town (actually situated in the town centre) that has an electric cremator.

[kokopelli]

18 hours ago, NancyL said:

No, the hospital wouldn't have done anything to hasten the patient's death if the funds ran out.  Instead, they would have approached relatives, friends, anyone who had visited him, etc about paying the bill.  Once a life-saving or life-prolonging procedure is started in Thailand it isn't stopped unless the patient is clearly without brain activity, and then only if relatives insist.  It's very difficult to "pull the plug" in this Buddhist country and a hospital won't do it simply for lack of payment.

Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital offers a Living Will which has provisions to withdraw life-sustaining treatment that serves only to prolong the process of dying. I assume other hospitals have the same provisions since it is in accordance with Thai law.

[Speedo1968]

18 hours ago, NancyL said:

No, the hospital wouldn't have done anything to hasten the patient's death if the funds ran out.  Instead, they would have approached relatives, friends, anyone who had visited him, etc about paying the bill.  Once a life-saving or life-prolonging procedure is started in Thailand it isn't stopped unless the patient is clearly without brain activity, and then only if relatives insist.  It's very difficult to "pull the plug" in this Buddhist country and a hospital won't do it simply for lack of payment.

OP - Thanks for your comments.
I have left a DNR at my local hospital and in some hospitals in Khon Kaen.
When I was hospitalised following being found on the floor due to a stroke ( 3 days ) the doctor waited until I was fully conscious before asking if my DNR was still valid.   I was sent to Khon Kaen where the hospital asked the same question.  I denied dialysis treatment which was accepted and I used alternative therapy instead of hospital much to their chagrin and later surprise that it worked.
 

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, kokopelli said:

Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital offers a Living Will which has provisions to withdraw life-sustaining treatment that serves only to prolong the process of dying. I assume other hospitals have the same provisions since it is in accordance with Thai law.

In U.K. where patients are supposed to be their prime concern, the N.H.S. gets around such issues by insisting that they need to free the bed in order to treat patients who can be treated. It’s difficult to argue against such rationale. I was called into the hospital and advised that they had discontinued treatment five hours earlier because my Mother ‘just wanted to die’. True, she had metastatic disease and her condition was intractable. There was no discussion with next of kin (that being me). As she was conscious and deemed to be of sound mind I believed that to be in order. 

[simon43]

When my Thai niece slipped into a coma (untreated HIV/TB), the Thai doctor suggested a morphine drip to ease her passing.  I was surprised (and happy) with this offer to ease her suffering, since I was under the impression that a Buddhist doctor would simply leave her to die naturally (and perhaps with some suffering).  

 

Perhaps they needed the bed? ????

[The Hammer2021]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:14 PM, scorecard said:

Organ donor;  that's if the deceased is fairly young and the donated organs are in very healthy condition. Not much point in putting a 90 year old working heart in a 10 year old.

 

However some univerities etc., will accept the whole part or specifuc areas of the decesed body for students to do reserch. Acceptance by the university medical research unit may depend on what age group / pre-condiions their current research is focusing on. 

Organ donation is not just about transplants! It's about medical research thus the age of the donor is irrelevant. Research into dementia requires old people not babies!

[The Hammer2021]

4 hours ago, kokopelli said:

Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital offers a Living Will which has provisions to withdraw life-sustaining treatment that serves only to prolong the process of dying. I assume other hospitals have the same provisions since it is in accordance with Thai law.

I have a living will to prevent  me being kept alive unnecessarily for an undue length of time when there is no chance of recovery.

[Excel]

1 minute ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I have a living will to prevent  me being kept alive unnecessarily for an undue length of time when there is no chance of recovery.

And how will you know if they honour that contract ?

[The Hammer2021]

1 minute ago, Excel said:

And how will you know if they honour that contract ?

I wont but my witnesses will  be involved and consulted and hopefully ensure my wishes are carried out

[Excel]

1 minute ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I wont but my witnesses will  be involved and consulted and hopefully ensure my wishes are carried out

And if not, sue them ?.  Absolutely pointless exercise with private hospitals here. They will maximise profits so keep the treatment going come what may. If you want not to be kept alive unnecessarily suggest you use a government hospital.  They will still try to help you wherever possible as all the doctors follow the Hippocratic oath.  The only difference is government hospitals put patients first not profits.

[MrMuddle]

7 minutes ago, Excel said:

And if not, sue them ?.  Absolutely pointless exercise with private hospitals here. They will maximise profits so keep the treatment going come what may. If you want not to be kept alive unnecessarily suggest you use a government hospital.  They will still try to help you wherever possible as all the doctors follow the Hippocratic oath.  The only difference is government hospitals put patients first not profits.

Have to agree with this. I used a very well known private Hospital in Bangkok. They kept asking would I like this test, or that treatment? Cost me a small fortune by the time they'd finished and I was no better!