Should teachers hit students? Case highlights teacher/student/parent relationships in Thailand

[Cake Monster]

3 hours ago, Thunglom said:

apart from making you think violence to children is OK.

It all starts with a cuff around the Ear Hole, and because nothing is actioned against the Teachers, Society here seems to think its OK to Torture Children away from the School Environment.

Any Violence, whether it be Physical, or Mental towards a child is totally barbaric and should carry a hefty Prison term for Assault.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, DjSilver said:

If a Thai teacher would ever hit my kid, no matter what. I would simply hit them back  and of course humiliate them to lose face in front of everyone. But lucky my kid doesn't go to school in Thailand and I would never allow them. Even the so called international schools a re terible with bad curriculum only making the kids more stupid.

There are 'so called international schools' and then there are the real ones with fees competitive with private schools in western countries. Having taught in one in Bangkok, I can assure you that the major international schools follow British or American curriculums or the international baccalaureate, have well remunerated and competent staff largely recruited overseas and largely expat students interested in learning. The so called international schools in SEA are a dime a dozen style institutions teaching local kids and generally have poorly qualified foreign teachers. Don't confuse the two school systems. 

[BangkokReady]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

Others will say a teacher should never raise their hand to a pupil EVER - it is a sign of a bad teacher who can't properly control a class with words. 

It could also be seen as a sign of bad children or parents.

 

8 hours ago, webfact said:

And the acceptance that casual violence against children is acceptable.

Is it casual violence though?  I ruler slapped lightly on the palm?  Is that really casual violence?  I'm not sure corporal punishment can be classed as casual violence.  For one, it isn't casual, it's punishment.

 

8 hours ago, webfact said:

It came to light after a post on social media in a clip that showed a computer studies class at a school in Sriracha, Chonburi, central Thailand.

 

A female teacher hits a student around the ear.

Although the video isn't clear as the sticker obscures the contact, it looks like it quite easily could have been a playful tap.  You can see that the arm is swung quite loosely and in a circular fashion, not like a direct and deliberately painful strike.  Much ado about nothing, as usual.

 

People need to be careful that their actions don't put kids in charge of adults.  That's a pretty slippery slope.

 

Teachers and parents owe it to children to not only nurture and take care of them, but to also teach them discipline and responsibility.

[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, HappyExpat57 said:

It's a joke, only a pretend slap on the shoulder is given, and we all know it, but attention is brought to the bad behavior.

I actually think this is what happened in the video.  It's very convenient that the sticker covers the point of impact.  I wonder if that was deliberate to make it look worse than it was.

[TheFishman1]

I don’t think his teacher should ever hit a student unless it’s in self-defense TIT

[Andre0720]

So teachers are teaching kids that violence is a good way to resolve a small problem.

Small wonder that all the movies and soap operas in Thailand are violence based.

I turn on the TV, and a movie is playing, and I now can tell if the movie was made in Thailand or elsewhere. I turn on the TV, and a movie is playing. When there is no violence, I ask my gf where this movie is from. And she will reply, oh, it is from China, or Oh, this is from Korea. Dubbed movies.

A good actor or particularly actresses is someone who can scream at someone else, while raising their eyebrows up and down fast. Good actors here.

Now teaching kids that violence is OK, kids get tho think that it is OK, and later on end up using violence to also solve small problems. From beating people, using knives and guns.

When I once asked to some Thai people watching one of those violent movie mid-afternoon, if they really liked that kind of movie, the reply was: 'It is good'.

And recently the TV was on when there was a scene of a grown man shouting down and hitting a child some 5 or 6 years old.. Now I make sure that the TV is turned on only on a channel other that Thai movies, or that news, which are even worse.

Violence is pervasive here, and it starts certainly at home, and at school also so it appears...

[BangkokReady]

3 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

The sad truth is that if you're faced with the task of teaching somebody that has never learned any type of discipline, period, there probably is a role for corporal punishment, and if you strictly prohibit its use, the result is often going to be the complete academic failure of the child.

I'd be curious to see what someone dead against any kind of corporal punishment would say in a situation like this.  If there was really no other way than giving them a slight whack to make them behave, and the alternative was no education and a miserable penniless existence, how can it be seen as unacceptable?  If that is what can make a very bad student change their ways, how can you say it should never be allowed under any circumstances?

[BritManToo]

"Should teachers hit students?"

Nobody should hit anybody else for any reason ....... end of!

Edited August 9, 2022 by BritManToo

[kennw]

1. A teacher should be allowed a range of correctional punishments but not physical, The students should be made aware in advance of the powers available to the teacher. And when those powers may be applied should also be indicated to the students IE. yellow card, etc The penalties should impact to the parents. eg. One month suspension, fee penalty, etc.   

[scorecard]

8 hours ago, Photoguy21 said:

No they shouldn't. It is assault no matter which way you look at it.

And it seems that all concerned ignore that it's illegal to hit school kids in any way at any Thai school.

 

I note that the article doesn't mention that very recently the Education Minister made a public statement about this subject, reinforcing that teachers are not permitted to hit students in any circumstances and reminding all that it's against the law. 

[Grusa]

When I was at School in Scotland, in the 60's, there was a thing called the tawse.

 

The rules around it's use were clear and precise... but as in all such situations there were a few sadists and perverts who abused them. Fortunately, few and far between.

 

In essence:-

Only to be used on the open palm - no backsides, except by the headmaster in extreme circumstances, and never on naked buttocks,

No more than three strokes,

Nowhere except in front of the class,

Any escalation requires parental involvement and consent.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawse

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Grusa

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

I'd be curious to see what someone dead against any kind of corporal punishment would say in a situation like this.  If there was really no other way than giving them a slight whack to make them behave, and the alternative was no education and a miserable penniless existence, how can it be seen as unacceptable?  If that is what can make a very bad student change their ways, how can you say it should never be allowed under any circumstances?

Because it's violence.

 

It also needs to be said, teaching is hard work, like many jobs, and yes there are challenges, same as in many jobs. 

 

It seems that some folks see hitting students (violence) as the only way to control them. Not true!

 

Teachers in most countries are taught how to control students and there are many methods, not including violence. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, DjSilver said:

But lucky my kid doesn't go to school in Thailand and I would never allow them. Even the so called international schools a re terible with bad curriculum only making the kids more stupid.

You obviously have no experience of, understanding of or exposure to schools such as Bangkok Patatana, Harrow Bangkok, NIST, ISB, Bangkok Patana, Shrewsbury, St Andrews, Bangkok Prep.....  

.... Just to name a handful which are all head and shoulders above the average comprehensive schools in the UK. 

 

I have a child at one of the above mentioned schools. I have friends and family in the UK who’s children go to good comprehensive schools in good area’s of the UK... the Bangkok International Schools are just a lot lot better at what they do.... (IMO).

 

I also have family who’s children are at Private Schools in the UK - in having discussions with parents and the students the standards appear comparable to the International Schools listed above. 

 

 

[BangkokReady]

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Because it's violence.

Why is "violence" unacceptable?  If that "violence" is extremely low-level and causes barely any pain at all and done to punish the student?

 

You cannot pretend that the "violence" of slapping someone on the hand with a ruler is the same as the "violence" of severely beating and injuring someone.  There are many levels of "violence", some of which does not even involve physically striking someone, depending on the definition.  It becomes a little pointless to want to label someone by a very vague and generic term.

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Why is "violence" unacceptable?  If that "violence" is extremely low-level and causes barely any pain at all and done to punish the student?

 

You cannot pretend that the "violence" of slapping someone on the hand with a ruler is the same as the "violence" of severely beating and injuring someone.  There are many levels of "violence", some of which does not even involve physically striking someone, depending on the definition.  It becomes a little pointless to want to label someone by a very vague and generic term.

Violence of any kind is unacceptable.... this would be in an ideal word. 

 

The issue of course is that many of us recognise the realities of life and that we do not live in an idea world. 

 

I would like to argue that there is never any need for violence, but there are scenarios in which I would not hesitate to use violence - but these are extreme scenarios and not involving children or in a school.

 

A school environment has to be a safe place for children - violence of any kind cannot be tolerated or sanctioned in a school, even in extreme situations. 

 

 

Is violence ever accepted in an civilised adult work place ????....   Why should it ever be accepted in a school ?

Edited August 9, 2022 by richard_smith237

[BangkokReady]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Is violence ever accepted in an civilised adult work place ????....   Why should it ever be accepted in a school ?

Adults in a civilised adult workplace do not behave like troubled children in a school.  If they did, they would be sacked.  If all troubled children in a school could be "fired", maybe things would be different, but that is generally an undesirable outcome (possibly even "not allowed").

 

Imagine you had to deal with a mentally unstable adult in your workplace who regularly did little work and fought with your other employees, but you could never fire them.  You fond that a ruler across the knuckles made them calm down, stop fighting and get on with their work.  Are you telling me that wouldn't seem like an attractive option?

[KannikaP]

8 hours ago, pattjock said:

No one should hit anyone, full stop.

Tell that to Mr Putin !  555

[EVENKEEL]

Did anyone actually watch the video? The teacher didn't smack the kid, more like a glancing thump on the head. Don't see the big deal.

[John harrison]

"How long is a piece of string"

At what stage does violence begin and where does it end....

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

I'd be curious to see what someone dead against any kind of corporal punishment would say in a situation like this.  If there was really no other way than giving them a slight whack to make them behave, and the alternative was no education and a miserable penniless existence, how can it be seen as unacceptable?  If that is what can make a very bad student change their ways, how can you say it should never be allowed under any circumstances?

If you can send a kid out of the class to the headmaster and inform the parents. You hit my kids, you end up in hospital.

[coolcarer]

Never an excuse for a teacher to hit a child, restrain yes if they are causing harm to themselves or others but to strike out never. Fortunately Thailand has made this illegal as have most developed countries in the world. If a teacher does this they should feel the full force of the law, that’s why it’s there. 

[BangkokReady]

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you can send a kid out of the class to the headmaster and inform the parents.

It's a hypothetical where there is no other alternative, therefore this does not apply and is meaningless.

 

4 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You hit my kids, you end up in hospital.

Lol.  No one is talking about hitting your kids.

[fabruer]

9 hours ago, djayz said:

It's a slippery slope this one. Although I don't agree with teachers hitting students, we can see the consequences of corporal punishment being banned completely in many of the youth today. They know they can do whatever they want and get away with it Scott free. We see this in many of our home countries. That having been said, I think the main reason corporal punishment was banned is because some teachers couldn't control themselves and administered too much punishment. They went overboard. As a consequence, it had to be prohibited. 

A "healthy" balance would be the ideal solution, but we don't live in a perfect world. 

I got the odd clip around the ear and ruler down the palms of my hands as a young lad and I turned out okay. More times than not, I deserved it.

"Corporal punishment vs. undisciplined thugs" or is it a case of "out of control teachers vs. innocent students"? 

 

I disagree.

 

What does a child learn when being hit by a person of authority?

 

Nothing other than it is acceptable to lay hands on another person.

 

Eager to hit people? Join the martial arts community.

 

Corporal punishment has no place, it's a matter of evolving. I understand your references but I am of the opinion that more violence is not a solution.

Edited August 9, 2022 by fabruer
spelling

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

Adults in a civilised adult workplace do not behave like troubled children in a school.  If they did, they would be sacked.  If all troubled children in a school could be "fired", maybe things would be different, but that is generally an undesirable outcome (possibly even "not allowed").

 

Imagine you had to deal with a mentally unstable adult in your workplace who regularly did little work and fought with your other employees, but you could never fire them.  You fond that a ruler across the knuckles made them calm down, stop fighting and get on with their work.  Are you telling me that wouldn't seem like an attractive option?

It would seem a great idea at first... but thats because I’m not a teacher with the skills to handle such a situation....

But, does teaching that ’trouble student’ that its acceptable for authority figures to hit someone weaker and powerless; even if it is just a rap across the knuckles, the right thing to do ??? 

 

Now, I would expect a qualified and well trained teacher to have the skills to handle such a child. 

I would expect support from the school and I would expect the education authorities to have a system in place whereby students who are a repetitively difficult and who could  not be dealt with by a the teacher and the school to be schooled in an alternative establishment where they are less disruptive to other students and where there are better trained specialist to deal with their behaviour. 

 

I know this is difficult in Thailand, particularly because of the money in the government schools, but also because of the attitudes towards such children. 

 

 

Hitting a child because they are late, forgot their homework, were talking in class, didn’t remember the right uniform etc is outrageously wrong and is a far far cry from dealing with a highly disruptive or violent child.  But, even when dealing with a highly disruptive or violent there are other options before resorting to physical means of punishment.

As has been reported numerous times over the years, in Thai schools it is often the case that ‘other options’ are not sought and the go to response is violence - this is wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by richard_smith237

[Lacessit]

Corporal punishment should only be administered by a headmaster, who can be objective.

A teacher in the classroom who needs to hit a student IMO is a lousy teacher. All the teachers I knew could control a classroom with a sharp tongue, or force of personality.

[peter zwart]

Should teachers hit students?.........What a stupid question. Their is absolutely no excuus for hitting a student. I think that many teachers here can not stand that their students maybe know more about something then they do due to the use of internet. Also have these teachers get used to the fact that student can ask questions. They are there to learn something and not just look at a person that see him/herself as a authority.

[Thunglom]

9 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

In a medieval society they use medieval methods too.. Hitting is normal, watch at the TV the soaps and entertainment shows.... It is a part of this society. And they don't care as students told me myself.. O no problem just hurt a bit soon over.... and than they are naughty again.. It doesn't work, only it let the violence in their lives grow.. and see what is happening day after day... not slapping, hitting, but just killing, as the violence is seen to be normal it seems

so if they all think the world is flat - it is?

[Confuscious]

How things changes over the years.
At my time, in a Catholic school where the teachers and the staff were Priests and Monks, it was ""normal" that a student was hit by the teachers.
Sometimes with the bare hands, other times with a steel or a wooden rules, etc.
Ink dropping on the page (yes, we wrote with self made ink as ballpens were not existing) and leaving a mark on the paper carried a slap on the hands.
Objecting the teacher or making a remark about the teacher carried a punishment where the boy could sit on his knees on an Iron ruler in the corner for 1 hour,
And once, only once did I loose control and told my father what the monk did to me and I got the same punishment again but this time from my father.
Yet, I didn't die from it and I did learn to respect a person.

The youth from now is a bunch of softies, most did not even fulfilled their military service, and only know how to gaze at their "smart" phone screen.

[DBath]

When I was in 5th grade elementary school teachers would give you the board if you got out of line and in my class they even had a placard on the wall that said, "Hot Spots", which was a list of those who were naughty enough to get "the board", so me and another kid decided to make a contest out of it. If you were so fortunate as to get 'paddled' a check mark would be placed next to your name, so me and the other kid - his name was John Sussex - were far and away the 'leaders' of those who most frequently got 'the board'.  Mr. Osborn was our teacher and one thing we quickly learned was to make sure we never got the board from the woman who was our English teacher, because the board had holes in it and she would exact a painful punishment. Mr. Osborn, on the other hand was a bit of a cream puff, so we mockingly made a joke out of the "Hot Spots", with yours truly taking home the booby prize.

[ericthai]

15 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you can't control kids without hitting them, you shouldn't be a teacher. I discipline my kids without the need to hit them and they will behave. Any teacher who hits my kids will end up in hospital. 

you don't condone corporal punishment, but you're ready to seriously hurt someone?