Punishment in school what would you do

[kingstonkid]

A lot of people have talked about corporal punishment is bad and teachers should never hit a child.

 

OKAY let's say you are right

 

Tell us that teach what your great plan is for this scenario.

 

You are teaching a class of 35 teens Matayom 3.  The class has 10 kids at the front trying to understand and wanting to learn. But there are a group of 6 students playing a videogame and they are loud and drowning out anything you may be saying causing you not to focus or the kids that want to learn to understand you.

Rule 1 parents don't care

Rule 2 asking them to be quiet Wil get you a look and them carrying on

Rule 3 you can't take the phones away voluntarily.

 

Rule 4 TEACHER are ???? allowed to play.

[HappyExpat57]

Exactly why I DON'T teach students that age. Most of them (including the girls) are bigger than me and a helluva lot meaner.

[kingstonkid]

This not a thread for complaining.  This site has a lot of people that say corporal punishment is not needed.

That say the teachers do not know how to teach.

 

Okay we teachers are not as smart as you.

 

Please enlighten us with what you would do that would be a real solution.

[1FinickyOne]

Doesn't your school have a principal that you can ask? 

[Iamfalang]

microphone.  Get loud.  not crazy loud, but enough for the kids in front to hear you.  use a projector.  WRITE on notepad (app on your computer, obviously) and then make the font big.  Kids can read.  

 

Then play a game and have it projected as well.  

 

online game.  Everyone has a phone.    there are many game sites.   Have the kids interacting.  

 

don't be lazy, write your own game.  It's super easy.

 

don't complain to the kids in the back, don't worry about them.  don't ignore them!!!  Look at them, smile at them, know you know....but play it cool and let them do what they want.

 

then, later, maybe talk to a Thai teacher about why that class is soo horrible.  Don't complain, say it with a smile.   They might talk to the kids, probably won't.

 

dude, this teaching in LOS.

 

imagine doing this for 20-years......or even 2-years.  

 

All I can say is hopefully you don't need the money.  If so, you gotta get a plane ticket.  

Edited August 10, 2022 by Iamfalang

[Scott]

An unhelpful post and reply have been removed.

 

I believe that corporal punishment is not permitted by law.  I would be very careful about anything that causes you to put your hands on any child.  That can come back to bite you in the backside quickly.  

 

Part of my job as an admin for several schools was to help teachers with students and situations like that.  I would instruct the teacher to send another student down to get me if there was a problem.  I would go down and deal with any problematic students. 

 

At one point, we had one class in which they had put all the 'bad' students.  They were mayhem to deal with.  They got quite used to me so I could take liberties by virtue of my position and my relationship -- or familiarity-- with them. 

 

I never used physical force on students but I sure could cause them embarrassment.  I'd be tempted to walk by them and just loudly ask them something like, 'Do your parents know you watch gay porn?'  That would probably solve the problem.  Pretty much anything that would cause them embarrassment would do it.  

 

With students like what you have, it really does require some assistance from outside the classroom.  You can't really teach and attend to their behavior at the same time.  

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

Send the six kids out of the room. Tell them they are disruptive to the kids that want to learn. Also tell them without education, most of them will be deadbeats with no future by the time they hit 25.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

This not a thread for complaining.  This site has a lot of people that say corporal punishment is not needed.

That say the teachers do not know how to teach.

 

Okay we teachers are not as smart as you.

 

Please enlighten us with what you would do that would be a real solution.

If you are a teacher I'm surprised your asking a forum what you should do. Corporal punishment is off the table as its illegal and serves no purpose in the education or upbringing of children so its behavioural management. 

 

However lets take the worst case scenario in your hypothetical situation after all else fails. The only option then left is to remove the children concerned, there and then, with help that you've called for from other teachers or staff. This does not relate to Thailand but here would be that scenario from a legal UK perspective:

 

Schools can use reasonable force in the following circumstances (please note that the list is not exhaustive):

to restrain a pupil who is at risk of harming themselves or others through physical outbursts;

to prevent a pupil behaving in a way that disrupts a school event or a school trip;

to remove disruptive children from the classroom where they have refused to comply with instructions given;

to prevent a pupil leaving the classroom where allowing the pupil to leave would risk their safety or lead to behaviour that disrupts the behaviour of others.

 

However as I said there is a lot before that would come into play as described in this document, the above is an absolute worst case action:

 

https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/discipline-within-school/

Edited August 10, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Slip]

Exercise your skill.  Control the class.  For sure it would be a challenge, but the point at which I felt I had to strike the kids in any meaningful way would be the point to get out of the classroom.

[Hanaguma]

I find that in this kind of situation, proximity is often a powerful tool. Usually the reprobates sit in the back of the room. So, start teaching from the back or wherever they are all sitting.  No need to stay at the front really, is there?  This will at least make 2 or 3 of the borderline cases start to modify their behavior.  The hardcore ones might take a bit more effort. 

 

For them, first get the rest of the class working on something- worksheet, collaborative activity.  This removes their (bad kids) audience, and a lot of the reason to act up in class. No audience means no fun. No point trying to look cool if nobody notices.

 

Finally, actually sit down with the baddies. Look at what they are doing if they are playing on their phones. Make a comment or two- "looks fun, can I have a go?" If they are texting, ask, "hey , who are you writing to?"  It would take a serious delinquent to keep on doing what they are doing with a big hairy farang sitting beside them.  

 

All else fails, document and detail.  Dates, times, infractions. Then talk to their homeroom teacher/sports coach if you can.  Getting someone else on staff to be on your side can work wonders.

 

[The Hammer2021]

Physically abusing children corrupts  the abuser and teaches kids to hit others.

[cdemundo]

6 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

This not a thread for complaining.  This site has a lot of people that say corporal punishment is not needed.

That say the teachers do not know how to teach.

 

Okay we teachers are not as smart as you.

 

Please enlighten us with what you would do that would be a real solution.

Are you suggesting that smacking the sh%t out of them would be a solution?

 

[it is what it is]

 

any qualified and experienced teacher worth their salt is adept at basic classroom management. if you are unable to manage a difficult class/students perhaps you should consider a different profession/career.

[kingstonkid]

4 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Are you suggesting that smacking the sh%t out of them would be a solution?

 

No, what I am doing is putting the shoe on the other foot.  On all threads about corporal punishment, people say that anyone that touches is a beast and is abusing BUT none of them give a solution or have had to deal with a class or group of rowdy students.

 

As I have stated I am a firm believer in schools having a teacher that is responsible for discipline that looks after students and resolves issues.

[kingstonkid]

10 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Doesn't your school have a principal that you can ask? 

I no longer teach in schools as I got tired of dealing with so-called students that just wanted to party.

 

Yes most schools have directors but they do not do anything as they are too worried about dealing with parents.

[kingstonkid]

10 hours ago, Iamfalang said:

microphone.  Get loud.  not crazy loud, but enough for the kids in front to hear you.  use a projector.  WRITE on notepad (app on your computer, obviously) and then make the font big.  Kids can read.  

 

Then play a game and have it projected as well.  

 

online game.  Everyone has a phone.    there are many game sites.   Have the kids interacting.  

 

don't be lazy, write your own game.  It's super easy.

 

don't complain to the kids in the back, don't worry about them.  don't ignore them!!!  Look at them, smile at them, know you know....but play it cool and let them do what they want.

 

then, later, maybe talk to a Thai teacher about why that class is soo horrible.  Don't complain, say it with a smile.   They might talk to the kids, probably won't.

 

dude, this teaching in LOS.

 

imagine doing this for 20-years......or even 2-years.  

 

All I can say is hope you don't need the money.  If so, you gotta get a plane ticket.  

Projector ?????  I take it you have not been to a lot of schools most schools do not have projectors.

 

Yelling in a classroom is a partial solution but can also lead to competition.

 

In most cases, the same class that you are having trouble with is the same issue for the Thai teachers and in some cases, I think it is worse for the young teachers

 

Also, remember most if not all these issues are Thai teachers not NES and Thais are not known for being loud.

[kingstonkid]

9 hours ago, Scott said:

An unhelpful post and reply have been removed.

 

I believe that corporal punishment is not permitted by law.  I would be very careful about anything that causes you to put your hands on any child.  That can come back to bite you in the backside quickly.  

 

Part of my job as an admin for several schools was to help teachers with students and situations like that.  I would instruct the teacher to send another student down to get me if there was a problem.  I would go down and deal with any problematic students. 

 

At one point, we had one class in which they had put all the 'bad' students.  They were mayhem to deal with.  They got quite used to me so I could take liberties by virtue of my position and my relationship -- or familiarity-- with them. 

 

I never used physical force on students but I sure could cause them embarrassment.  I'd be tempted to walk by them and just loudly ask them something like, 'Do your parents know you watch gay porn?'  That would probably solve the problem.  Pretty much anything that would cause them embarrassment would do it.  

 

With students like what you have, it really does require some assistance from outside the classroom.  You can't really teach and attend to their behavior at the same time.  

 

 

 

Thank YOu for the support that you give/gave   This is what I think should be done. I have only seen it done once and it was great to watch the change in attitude when I said go and get Khun X or she walked into the room.

[kingstonkid]

3 hours ago, it is what it is said:

 

any qualified and experienced teacher worth their salt is adept at basic classroom management. if you are unable to manage a difficult class/students perhaps you should consider a different profession/career.

OKAY STEP UP

 

Tell me oh wise one how would you handle the situation,  Don't just say that teachers are useless not able to do their job and should quit.

 

Do the homework share your wisdom as to how you would manage this class.

 

[kingstonkid]

6 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Physically abusing children corrupts  the abuser and teaches kids to hit others.

Hammer I am not suggesting that abusing a child is correct and most people are not looking to abuse a student.

 

What you are being asked is how would you manage a class as outlined.

 

Properly and judiciously administered Corporal Punishment is not abuse and does not have a detrimental effect on most students.

 

Most if not all people that came up through school up until the 80's went through an education system that had that.

[kingstonkid]

7 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I find that in this kind of situation, proximity is often a powerful tool. Usually the reprobates sit in the back of the room. So, start teaching from the back or wherever they are all sitting.  No need to stay at the front really, is there?  This will at least make 2 or 3 of the borderline cases start to modify their behavior.  The hardcore ones might take a bit more effort. 

 

For them, first get the rest of the class working on something- worksheet, collaborative activity.  This removes their (bad kids) audience, and a lot of the reason to act up in class. No audience means no fun. No point trying to look cool if nobody notices.

 

Finally, actually sit down with the baddies. Look at what they are doing if they are playing on their phones. Make a comment or two- "looks fun, can I have a go?" If they are texting, ask, "hey , who are you writing to?"  It would take a serious delinquent to keep on doing what they are doing with a big hairy farang sitting beside them.  

 

All else fails, document and detail.  Dates, times, infractions. Then talk to their homeroom teacher/sports coach if you can.  Getting someone else on staff to be on your side can work wonders.

 

YES a solution that can work  THANK YOU.

 

This is why I loved the horseshoe set up surprising how fast I could be in their faces and still teach the class.

 

It was also unnerving to them.

 

 

 

[Iamfalang]

7 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

YES a solution that can work  THANK YOU.

You said you're no longer a teacher.  OK.  Anyhow, this solution won't work.  Sit down with them?  They will "listen," say nothing, and nothing will happen.   Not to a non-NES teacher, not to a new teacher, and not in M2.   You can't force them to try to learn another language, and your job is based on if the kids like you.   I would like to see this attempted solution, especially if it's a new young teacher who thinks he can change their attitude by speaking English.  Now, if you can really speak Thai, that's an entirely different story.

 

anyhow, you said you left................i'm done here.   4 out of 5 schools I worked at had a projector, and you can even buy a portable microphone.   anyhow, you gave up.....it's normal.  New "teachers" (speakers) get overwhelmed and overworked and actually the schools don't care.  They pay you 30k, make 40k, so you are simply a business transaction.

[kingstonkid]

40 minutes ago, Iamfalang said:

You said you're no longer a teacher.  OK.  Anyhow, this solution won't work.  Sit down with them?  They will "listen," say nothing, and nothing will happen.   Not to a non-NES teacher, not to a new teacher, and not in M2.   You can't force them to try to learn another language, and your job is based on if the kids like you.   I would like to see this attempted solution, especially if it's a new young teacher who thinks he can change their attitude by speaking English.  Now, if you can really speak Thai, that's an entirely different story.

 

anyhow, you said you left................i'm done here.   4 out of 5 schools I worked at had a projector, and you can even buy a portable microphone.   anyhow, you gave up.....it's normal.  New "teachers" (speakers) get overwhelmed and overworked and actually the schools don't care.  They pay you 30k, make 40k, so you are simply a business transaction.

I hear what you are saying and yes I was actually forced by my doctors to give up.  I had the microphone and I had the projectors and the laptop connections.

 

The point that you are missing is that while I am a NES English teacher the problem in the country is not a problem held by NES teachers most of us have the skills or the <deleted>-off attitude to resolve it.  We also have the outside Western attitudes and methods.

 

 

The corporal punishment issue that excites everyone is with Thai teachers who do not have the experience and worst still only have the lessons that they learned when they were teachers.  Remember the old teachers only know what they learned and did 30 years ago.  The young teachers only know what they saw and went through as students.

 

It is that young Thai teachers do not have the gravitas or the fear factor that a NES male teacher has.  As I was told by students I intimidated them.  55-year-old 5"10" loud and proud teacher.  I was in most cases able to get my point across but got tired of the politics in the schools.  Preparing lessons teaching 26 classes a week and what i taught only counted for 10% of their mark and I had to pass them.

 

The final exam for my last Mat 5 class

 

What is your name?

Where do you live?

What did you do last night?

Why are you at school?

 

That was it.  I was supposed to put up with all the Thai teacher <deleted> about you can not punish or give my daughter extra work.  All for 35K a month and no work permit or security.  Sorry I did not need the money nor as my doctor said the aggravation and high BP,

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, kingstonkid said:

Hammer I am not suggesting that abusing a child is correct and most people are not looking to abuse a student.

 

What you are being asked is how would you manage a class as outlined.

 

Properly and judiciously administered Corporal Punishment is not abuse and does not have a detrimental effect on most students.

 

Most if not all people that came up through school up until the 80's went through an education system that had that.

Under what circumstances would you administer Corporal Punishment and what form would that take? While you say it does not have a have a detrimental effect on most students, what about those students that it does?

[BKKBike09]

1 hour ago, kingstonkid said:

Properly and judiciously administered Corporal Punishment is not abuse and does not have a detrimental effect on most students.

Corporal punishment isn't always a deterrent: I was beaten at school and all it did was make me even more anti-authority. 

[Denim]

Don't teach now, but when I did and faced similar problems i waited for class to finish then detained miscreants on some pretext or other for a private chat so they would not lose face in front of the class. I would then sit down with them and have a serious chat with them along the lines of.:

 

" Listen , I'm sorry if you find this subject boring but there is not much I can do about it. I understand that you would rather play video games and personally , I don't have a problem with it. However , there are a lot of students who do want to listen and learn. So what I propose is a compromise. You can sit at the back of the class and do whatever you want but show consideration ( greng jai ) and keep the noise down. If you can't do this , sit outside the classroom somewhere so that you don't disturb others.  Is that a fair deal ?  

" if you cannot comply and continue to make a racket then for the sake of the other students your parents will all have to be called in to discuss the problem. I think that's only fair. Do you all agree ?

 

I tried this approach twice with different noisy groups and it did result in them keeping the noise down although they still played with their phones. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Gecko123]

11 hours ago, Scott said:

I'd be tempted to walk by them and just loudly ask them something like, 'Do your parents know you watch gay porn?' 

Whoa! Ridiculing or joking about a teenage child's sexual orientation or inferring that a child might be gay (even in a joking manner) in front of their classmates strikes me as incredibly inappropriate and psychologically abusive. I'd sooner fire a teacher for doing that than for paddling someone's behind with a ping pong paddle.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gecko123

[Scott]

34 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

Whoa! Ridiculing or joking about a teenage child's sexual orientation or inferring that a child might be gay (even in a joking manner) in front of their classmates strikes me as incredibly inappropriate and psychologically abusive. I'd sooner fire a teacher for doing that than for paddling someone's behind with a ping pong paddle.

Things like that were only done with students who I had taught for a number of years and whom I knew very well and knew me.   I would certainly not do it with random students.  

 

[howlee101]

12 hours ago, Scott said:

I never used physical force on students but I sure could cause them embarrassment.  I'd be tempted to walk by them and just loudly ask them something like, 'Do your parents know you watch gay porn?'  That would probably solve the problem.  Pretty much anything that would cause them embarrassment would do it.

As a school administrator for several schools, why do you think such a statement would be appropriate?  Couldn't this cause other students to bully them based on your accusation?

[simon43]

I'm a teacher.  If 6 teen boys continuously play around, then I tell them to get out of the classroom and I lock the door.  (I've done this before in Thailand and they don't mess around again).  If the school HoD or Principal doesn't support my actions, then I resign and they can sort out the problem of the teems and of finding a replacement teacher.

 

So no hitting, no shouting, just simple affirmative action delivered with a smile ????

 

PS - This is why I mostly teach in Myanmar - the students of all ages are polite, respectful and all of them want to learn!

Edited August 11, 2022 by simon43

[The Hammer2021]

4 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

Hammer I am not suggesting that abusing a child is correct and most people are not looking to abuse a student.

 

What you are being asked is how would you manage a class as outlined.

 

Properly and judiciously administered Corporal Punishment is not abuse and does not have a detrimental effect on most students.

 

Most if not all people that came up through school up until the 80's went through an education system that had that.

Yes physical violence  against  children is abuse. Its cowardly  bullying  because  the child  is too small to fight  back. The right  to physically abuse children engenders  corruption and  possible  pervsion in adults.

We don't beat dogs, we don't lash prisoners, we don't beat women and we don't physically abuse  children.

Regarding  classroom control - there is no simple answer to problem you describe. But sacking the teacher would be a good start!

Caning, strapping beating children was made illegal  years ago in most countries.

A teacher who resorts to beating little boys and girls is lazy, incompetent and possibly sick and definitely  a bully.

The scenario  you describe is prevented by many approaches including class size and selection, selective teaching methodology to meet  students needs, appropriate  teaching  materials and resources,  appropriate  subjects  taught  in context,  management  response and parental  liaison etc.  It's called teaching. It's work. Using physical  violence  against little children  is not just immoral  but impractical as leads to inter child violence  and bullying.

I worked  in South London,  the Middle  East and Asia. NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES would children be beaten, whipped, slapped, punched or caned.