Ukraine applies for Nato membership after Russia annexes territory

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Russia began their attack on Ukraine AFTER Trump had left office and Biden was POTUS when Russia attacked Ukraine .

   More likely that Putin didn't attack Ukraine whilst Trump was POTUS because he thought Trump would oppose his actions and he waited until Trump had gone before he started the war 

Sure, if one thing Trump demonstrated during his term in office is how opposed he was to Russia in its attacks on Ukraine, That's why, after Congress had authorized a second round for the Ukrainians as they were under a stepped-up  attack from the Russians, Trump ignored the please of the Ukrainian govt for months. Even though the transfer of weaponry has been authorized. 

 

Trump’s Hold on Ukrainian Military Aid was Illegal

As the House impeachment inquiry continues to uncover substantial evidence of Trump’s abuses of power, one thing has become clear: President Donald Trump illegally withheld military aid to Ukraine.

No one from the Trump administration has been able to point to any legal authority that allowed Trump to withhold the funding for the length of time and in the manner that he did. Even Trump’s defenders in the House, who have speciously claimed that the president had reasons for holding the aid other than pressuring Ukraine to investigate his political rivals, have not provided justifications that are legal. 

https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   More likely that Putin didn't attack Ukraine whilst Trump was POTUS because he thought Trump would oppose his actions and he waited until Trump had gone before he started the war 

Not everything that happens in other parts of the world has reference to events in the United States. But if Trump's departure was crucial to the attack, why did Putin wait over a year before launching its invasion? There is nothing in the record that suggest Putin had any fear of Trump. But there's plenty in the record to suggest that he had no reason to fear Trump.

[Dan O]

22 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Russia began their attack on Ukraine AFTER Trump had left office and Biden was POTUS when Russia attacked Ukraine .

   More likely that Putin didn't attack Ukraine whilst Trump was POTUS because he thought Trump would oppose his actions and he waited until Trump had gone before he started the war 

I'm well aware of the chronology of this event.

 

My point to blaze was there has never been any instigation political or otherwise to cause this situation.

 

The closest thing to it was trumps never ending acceptance of anything putin primarily based on leverage putin has over trump. Trump is a load mouth whimp, has no backbone and would never have stood up to any despot in a time of crisis

Edited October 3, 2022 by Dan O
Spelling correction

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not everything that happens in other parts of the world has reference to events in the United States. But if Trump's departure was crucial to the attack, why did Putin wait over a year before launching its invasion? There is nothing in the record that suggest Putin had any fear of Trump. But there's plenty in the record to suggest that he had no reason to fear Trump.

Better to remain on topic .

Just because Trump got mentioned once , you really don't have to keep going on about him 

   Lets get back on topic and the topic isn't Trump 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Better to remain on topic .

Just because Trump got mentioned once , you really don't have to keep going on about him 

   Lets get back on topic and the topic isn't Trump 

"Just because Trump got mentioned once" 

And you accuse me of going on about him?

Misleading much? As though mentioning him was some impersonal event devoid of human agency?  He didn't just get mentioned. You brought him up. You mentioned him. Not me. You.  But I guess yours is one way to wave a white flag.

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

"Just because Trump got mentioned once" 

And you accuse me of going on about him?

Misleading much? As though mentioning him was some impersonal event devoid of human agency?  He didn't just get mentioned. You brought him up. You mentioned him. Not me. You.  But I guess yours is one way to wave a white flag.

I was actually replying to someone else who mentioned him , a post that seemed to suggest that the war began when Trump was POTUS and I replied to that .

   Just because he got a mention, really no need to go on endless rants about him .

[placeholder]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

I was actually replying to someone else who mentioned him , a post that seemed to suggest that the war began when Trump was POTUS and I replied to that .

   Just because he got a mention, really no need to go on endless rants about him .

And now my replies are endless rant?  You raised 2 points I refuted them.

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, placeholder said:

And now my replies are endless rant?  You raised 2 points I refuted them.

How do you feel about Ukraine applying for NATO membership ?

Should they be allowed to join ?

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How do you feel about Ukraine applying for NATO membership ?

Should they be allowed to join ?

Not now. Best to wait to see if Russia crumbles.

[placeholder]

Just now, placeholder said:

Not now. Best to wait to see if Russia crumbles.

Anyway, it's not going to happen, Hungary certainly would stand in the way. Turkey most likely, too.

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not everything that happens in other parts of the world has reference to events in the United States. But if Trump's departure was crucial to the attack, why did Putin wait over a year before launching its invasion? There is nothing in the record that suggest Putin had any fear of Trump. But there's plenty in the record to suggest that he had no reason to fear Trump.

Yes.

Trump's treasonous behavior at the infamous Trump - Putin press conference in Helsinki was the highlight of Putin's career.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Jingthing

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Anyway, it's not going to happen, Hungary certainly would stand in the way. Turkey most likely, too.

It wont happen because Countries involved in a conflict are not permitted to join NATO

[Dan O]

My comment that you replied to made no suggestion of that. You read it out of context and now are trying to back track on your own comments. 

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wont happen because Countries involved in a conflict are not permitted to join NATO

So why did you ask?

[Dan O]

13 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wont happen because Countries involved in a conflict are not permitted to join NATO

wrong, countries at war can still join. Entry of new countries is controlled by Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty: The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Dan O said:

My comment that you replied to made no suggestion of that. You read it out of context and now are trying to back track on your own comments. 

The "reach around hand jobs to Putin" comment may have caused the misunderstanding .

   Was that a  reference  to Trump masturbating Putin ?

I wasn't too sure what you meant by that 

[Adumbration]

On 10/1/2022 at 4:23 PM, Jingthing said:

That's up to Putin.

No its not.  America, and the west, are systematically removing all of the off ramps to deescalate this conflict.  Same thing happened in the lead up to WW1.  The world went to war because of an isolated incident.  That is where this is headed.  But that has been the US plan all along. 

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wont happen because Countries involved in a conflict are not permitted to join NATO

Can you link to the specific clause in NATO that bars countries on these grounds?

 

There is an action plan that states: "Willingness to settle international, ethnic or external territorial disputes by peaceful means, commitment to the rule of law and human rights, and democratic control of armed forces"

 

Other than that then other NATO countries can stipulate their own objections.

 

Norway and Sweden are both in the process but Norway especially was very close to Russian threats and could well have been involved, hence why in the interim its had some security guarantees from other countries such as the UK. So if it got involved are you suggesting it could not then join NATO?

 

 

[Dan O]

12 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

No its not.  America, and the west, are systematically removing all of the off ramps to deescalate this conflict.  Same thing happened in the lead up to WW1.  The world went to war because of an isolated incident.  That is where this is headed.  But that has been the US plan all along. 

I don't think that's the case at all. that's why the US and EU have not supplied troops to fight on the ground in Ukraine and also not supplied aircraft. Its also the hesitancy to include Ukraine to NATO. They are supporting Ukraine's ability to defend itself while not trying expanding the fight in country or to surrounding countries. WW1 and that conflict escalation has no correlation to this situation 

[Dan O]

20 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The "reach around hand jobs to Putin" comment may have caused the misunderstanding .

   Was that a  reference  to Trump masturbating Putin ?

I wasn't too sure what you meant by that 

Absolutely. Putin has dirt on Trump from various activities on visits Trump made to Russia. Putin treated Trump as a lap dog.

 

Trump also worships the 3 major despots in the world and their ability to be "leaders for life" as their countries have no ability to change their government leaders and thats what Trump invisions himself as. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Dan O said:

Absolutely. Putin has dirt on Trump from various activities on visits Trump made to Russia. Putin treated Trump as a lap dog.

 

Trump also worships the 3 major despots in the world and their ability to be "leaders for life" as their countries have no ability to change their government leaders and thats what Trump invisions himself as. 

And we're off...................................Trump is a blah blah blah 

Altogether now

[Gweiloman]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

Why do you answer your own question without a response from anybody?

 

Firstly the leaders of any country don't wake up in the morning and decide that, as they are bored, today is a good day to invade country X, Y or Z.

 

In the early days of planning a great deal of information is required. About your own country, its forces and more importantly the forces that are available, spares, fuel, ammunition, food and water and all the other logistics that you will need, plus the reliability of your allies.

 

Then you need to know even more about the country, and its allies, that you are thinking of invading. 

 

That is obtained in various ways, satellite overflights, careful reading of newspapers, magazines, radio and TV, spies on the ground, the legal ones from the embassies and the black ones that have no legal cover.

 

It does not mean that your leader goes out in a wig, false nose, moustache etc.

 

All of this information comes from ordinary people, Perhaps from dissidents in the country you are looking at to invade, but even spies are ordinary people.

 

It then goes up the chain of command through the various departments to probably cabinet level where it is brought to the country leaders attention.

 

Meetings and discussions are held, with and without the leader and in the end a decision is made for or against an invasion of country X, Y or Z.

 

If the decision is made to invade, ONLY then are detailed plans made, refined and adjusted for the final yes or no. 

 

I use the term leader instead of President, Prime Minister, Supreme Being, Dictator as it a an easy cover all label.

 

It is all down to the little people who gather information and on the people above them who have to evaluate it.

 

If they get it wrong then the whole thing is wrong.

 

And then sometimes you get somebody like Putin who does what HE wants simply because he can.

 

And it seems that he might have got it wrong in the Ukraine. he did annex the Crimea in 2014 and also Georgia in 2008.

 

Should I mention the Russian invasion of Afghanistan?

 

If you want a longer list of Russian invasions you could always look here. but that goes back over 1,000 years or 4 times longer than the the USA has been a united country.

 

You seem to have an obsession or perhaps a hatred of the USA for some reason, and that everything that they have done or are doing is wrong.

 

 

 

You keep harping on about the USA but fail to mention China.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People's_Republic_of_China

 

 

 

This is a thread about Ukraine applying to join NATO. What does China have to do with it? You don’t have something against China do you?

[Gweiloman]

19 minutes ago, Dan O said:

I don't think that's the case at all. that's why the US and EU have not supplied troops to fight on the ground in Ukraine and also not supplied aircraft. Its also the hesitancy to include Ukraine to NATO. They are supporting Ukraine's ability to defend itself while not trying expanding the fight in country or to surrounding countries. WW1 and that conflict escalation has no correlation to this situation 

If the US and EU supply troops, this means they are declaring war against Russia. I don’t think they will dare to do this. Instead, they will take covert measures such as bombing the pipelines to try and cripple Russia. 
 

The sad thing is that EU is too blind and naive to see the consequences and the hidden agendas for themselves. While their fortunes continue to decline, those of the US continues to grow (military industrial complex, LNG suppliers).

[Gweiloman]

19 hours ago, Dan O said:

The other wars you quoted earlier had America physically involved, after other countries had done the same without success in those same countries. I'm not defending those actions as they were certainly misguided.

 

America did not instigate this war nor are they physically there as in other conflicts. America also isn't politically instigating anything as you say, only offering support to negate the illegal invasion of another country by Russia after taking other land by force in a bid to expand against the sovereign rights those countries.  

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

No its not.  America, and the west, are systematically removing all of the off ramps to deescalate this conflict.  Same thing happened in the lead up to WW1.  The world went to war because of an isolated incident.  That is where this is headed.  But that has been the US plan all along. 

Conspiracy theory garbage. 

Putin chose this war.

If it continues to escalate that's on Putin too.

[Dan O]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

And we're off...................................Trump is a blah blah blah 

Altogether now

Just replying to your questions so don't act so innocent or imply something else 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

Who was driving the expansion of NATO? No need for you to answer. It was the countries that remember what it was like to be under the Russian/Soviet jackboot after WW2. The countries that heard Russia claim it has a legitimate right to intervene to protect ethnic Russians resident in other countries. That's who is driving the expansion.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

Putin is so innocent. The victim of the west. Sure thing.

 

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

I thought Putin was the salesperson for NATO, it was down to him that Finland and Sweden applied

Edited October 3, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Dan O]

14 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If the US and EU supply troops, this means they are declaring war against Russia. I don’t think they will dare to do this. Instead, they will take covert measures such as bombing the pipelines to try and cripple Russia. 
 

The sad thing is that EU is too blind and naive to see the consequences and the hidden agendas for themselves. While their fortunes continue to decline, those of the US continues to grow (military industrial complex, LNG suppliers).

More conspiracy bs. No need to bomb pipelines as Russia shut down the own pipelines to EU and are focusing on selling oil to India, China and Asia.  No need to create hidden agendas as Russia is effective broke and thats part of their impetus to take over other areas. Ukraine accounted for about 30% of the international agro market not to mention their other resources which are very inviting to putin not to mention his mental impairment over trying to re-establish some form of the USSR prior to their fall back in the 80's.  Keep in mind putin is ex-KGB and was in his heyday back then