OTHERED: How racism, xenophobia and religious discrimination were woven into the fabric of the UK

[kwilco]

41 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I cannot believe this myself . 

I also have a French woman staying with me , who works at Eurostar and she has just showed up with two dogs in tow and asked/told me that they will be staying the night !!!!!!!!

There appear to be no limits to your non-racist beneficence!

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed along with trolling emoticons.  Continue and face a suspension.  

 

[Rhys]

Early Colonial influence from that area...

Edited October 17, 2022 by Rhys

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m talking about people who where born and grew up in the period after the late forties, through to the late 80s, as I clearly explained.

I’m pleased to see you accept racist attitudes were the norm back then.

 

Now all you have to do is grasp the idea that people who grew up at a time when racist attitudes where the norm in the society they were growing up with will have to some varying degree taken those racist attitudes on board.

Many of them have changed their attitude .

In the early 80's Black football players were often booed , even by their own fans .

   I am aware of one Black player who was booed by his own fans when he was one of the first Black players to represent the team and those same fans have apologised to him and admitting that they were "bang out of order " for their behaviour 

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

It's  a pity that people don't understand history and how it relates to today.

"No dogs no Iraish no coloureds" were legal until the 1960s as was discrimination re employment, but laws were brought in to prevent this. It means that most people didn't agree with these attitudes but it doesn't  mean they don't exist anymore. 

Nowadays racists try ti hide their racism....see the list I posted.

But institutional racism has been here for decades and still exists....if you understand a little of the history, you can see where it comes from and how it survives.

Complacency is racism best friend. People who sit back and do nothing in the face of evil are as bad as those who commit it.

If the UK is racist, it's certainly less so than any other country I've lived in.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

sorry if that is too much for you let me elucidate

 

Racists make sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

 “Land of Smiles” is a sweeping Statement

Therefore “Land of smiles” is racist?

 

There is no logical connection between C the conclusion and the first 2 statements.

I'm guessing you won't understand that.

I certainly don't understand people that look for evidence of racism when it's not there to be found ( for the most part ), and failing find that an entire country is racist invent slogans that could apply to anyone anywhere.

 

[kwilco]

I think it would help a lot of people to understand racist Britain if the watched this Ashley Banjo program on ITV

 

https://www.itv.com/hub/ashley-banjo-britain-in-black-and-white/10a1611a0001

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, stop changing words around , were are not talking about cats and dogs 

You claimed that 

"11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed colour," is racist .

   Saying Thai people have smiles is doing just that , making a sweeping  generalisation about a Nationality .

   You cannot have it both ways , either making sweeping generalisations about a Nationality is either racist or it isn't 

 

  

Making sweeping generalizations about a nationality  - Is certainly, stereotyping that group, so it fits right into the mindset of racism.

 

The portrayal of non-white races as jolly smiling people, is absolutely a historical racist trope.

 

All peoples have ‘smiles’, defining a racial group as ‘smiling’ is reductionist and reductionism is definitely a tool of racism.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

 

9 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Going by your list , I am racist times 5 , as I tick five of your boxes .

Although I disagree with your list . 

So, you think that I am a racist, I think that I am not 

But, as I have just denied that I am a racist , that's further proof that I am 

Please address this question:

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

OK let’s accept at face value your opinion is that particular list is nonsense.

 

Do you agree there are statements and ‘go to arguments’ that are characteristic of racists?

 

Or is it your contention that nobody can conclude another person is a racist on the basis of the statements and arguments they put forward?

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Many of them have changed their attitude .

In the early 80's Black football players were often booed , even by their own fans .

   I am aware of one Black player who was booed by his own fans when he was one of the first Black players to represent the team and those same fans have apologised to him and admitting that they were "bang out of order " for their behaviour 

Yes you are correct, many, I would say very many have changed their behaviour, some have gone as far as to change their thinking too.

 

But very many have not, very many people still carry with them the racism of the society they grew up in. We frequently see examples in posts on this forum.

 

Very few British people are openly racist. (I’ve underlined that so as to ensure my views are not misrepresented).

 

However, far too many give scant attention to how racism occurs and goes un challenged, or is used as a tool in political and public policy campaigns.

 

On top of that there still remain overtly racist political groups that have significant public support.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Yes you are correct, many, I would say very many have changed their behaviour, some have gone as far as to change their thinking too.

 

But very many have not, very many people still carry with them the racism of the society they grew up in. We frequently see examples in posts on this forum.

 

Very few British people are openly racist. (I’ve underlined that so as to ensure my views are not misrepresented).

 

However, far too many give scant attention to how racism occurs and goes un challenged, or is used as a tool in political and public policy campaigns.

 

On top of that there still remain overtly racist political groups that have significant public support.

 

Which political groups are those ?

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Which political groups are those ?

Please, let’s have less of this feigned ignorance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_far-right_groups_(1945–present)

[Mac Mickmanus]

59 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Please, let’s have less of this feigned ignorance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_far-right_groups_(1945–present)

They do not have significant public support though .

I wasnt saying that there are no far right groups in the U.K. , I was questioning whether they had significant public support and those listed groups seem to be "one man and his dog" groups .

  When they stand in elections , they get votes of about 1-200 , so hardly significant public support 

   

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Making sweeping generalizations about a nationality  - Is certainly, stereotyping that group, so it fits right into the mindset of racism.

 

The portrayal of non-white races as jolly smiling people, is absolutely a historical racist trope.

 

All peoples have ‘smiles’, defining a racial group as ‘smiling’ is reductionist and reductionism is definitely a tool of racism.

 

 

Is there some truth in the stereotypes ?

"Land of smiles" 

Do Thais generally smile more than , say Russians ?

Why isn't Bulgaria nicknamed "Land of smiles" ?

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Please, let’s have less of this feigned ignorance

It's called 'sealioning."

A passuve aggressive tactic of ŕepeatedly asking for unnecessary citations and references.

Usually when someone doesn't have a coherent argument.

[Mac Mickmanus]

20 hours ago, kwilco said:

"No dogs no Irish no coloureds" were legal until the 1960s as was discrimination re employment, but laws were brought in to prevent this.

That really needs to be into perspective , that was a sign that same landlords wrote when advertising their property for rent .

    Baring in mind that in the 1950s , Africans were arriving in the U.K and they may have had different living standards in African than what was expected in the U.K , some may have just arrived and had no jobs .

    Irish were coming to the U.K often to work in construction and Irish builders may not have been the type of tenant a landlord would want , work was seasonal and the Irish do like a drink .

   You can understand landlords not wanting those tenants back then 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

It's called 'sealioning."

A passuve aggressive tactic of ŕepeatedly asking for unnecessary citations and references.

Usually when someone doesn't have a coherent argument.

It really isn't . 

I was pointing that that he was incorrect when he made the claim that far right groups have significant public support in the U.K .

   I wasn't "feigning ignorance" and I wasn't "sealioning" , I was pointing out an incorrect claim 

[kwilco]

36 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Africans were arriving in the U.K and they may have had different living standards in African than what was expected in the U.K , some may have just arrived and had no jobs .

Seriously? Africans??? - sweeping generalisations! Have you never heard of "Windrush"?

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by kwilco

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Seriously? Africans??? - sweeping generalisations! Have you never heard of "Windrush"?

 

 

OK............................people of African descent and not just particularly from the African continent (Although my same point still remains )

[Chomper Higgot]

58 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That really needs to be into perspective , that was a sign that same landlords wrote when advertising their property for rent .

    Baring in mind that in the 1950s , Africans were arriving in the U.K and they may have had different living standards in African than what was expected in the U.K , some may have just arrived and had no jobs .

    Irish were coming to the U.K often to work in construction and Irish builders may not have been the type of tenant a landlord would want , work was seasonal and the Irish do like a drink .

   You can understand landlords not wanting those tenants back then 

Nonsense.

 

Black immigrants arriving in the UK were overwhelmingly coming from the Caribbean, famously well mannered, polite, Methodist and hardworking.

 

You are using pejorative stereotyping to defend the overt racism of the 1950s.

 

You could save yourself the embarrassment by simply stating ‘yes that was an example of racism at that time.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nonsense.

 

Black immigrants arriving in the UK were overwhelmingly coming from the Caribbean, famously well mannered, polite, Methodist and hardworking.

 

You are using pejorative stereotyping to defend the overt racism of the 1950s.

 

You could save yourself the embarrassment by simply stating ‘yes that was an example of racism at that time.

 

 

You have fallen foul of rules...................

 

4.     Stereotyping of an entire nationality.

 

9.     Over-use of the 3rd person plural pronouns and adjectives, (e.g. - them, they, their)

 

 

10.  “They” come over here….

 

11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

18.  “They come over here…”

 

If you can tick any one of these, you are probably racist.

[Bluespunk]

13 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You have fallen foul of rules...................

 

4.     Stereotyping of an entire nationality.

This from someone who just posted

 

''the Irish do like a drink''

 

Ah, the irony...

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

This from someone who just posted

 

''the Irish do like a drink''

 

Ah, the irony...

Well,  did Irish builders like to drink ?

Is that reality or incorrect  racial stereotyping ?

[Bluespunk]

18 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well,  did Irish builders like to drink ?

Is that reality or incorrect  racial stereotyping ?

You did not specify that Irish builders like a drink, and that in itself is also a stereotype.

 

You said ''the Irish do like a drink''

 

As to what that can be called...I'll let you answer that.

 

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You have fallen foul of rules...................

 

4.     Stereotyping of an entire nationality.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Bluespunk

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

OK............................people of African descent and not just particularly from the African continent (Although my same point still remains )

I guess they all looked the same to you?

  

 

The vast majority of “black” immigrants to the UK in the 1950s were from the West Indies and they came because they HAD JOBS with people like London Transport.

I don’t think most people realise that over 2 million people EMIGRATED from the UK after WW2 to the 1960s to the point that  governments were really concerned that Britain would not be able to rebuild itself. Those of the Windrush generation were key to rebuilding the country – and now 60 years on, some have been threatened with repatriation – how racist can the UK get?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

I'll let you answer that.

 

 

Why wont you answer that question ?

[kwilco]

17 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well,  did Irish builders like to drink ?

Is that reality or incorrect  racial stereotyping ?

It just gets worse and worse!

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why wont you answer that question ?

I have.

 

You did not specify that Irish builders like a drink, though

that in itself is also a stereotype.

 

You said ''the Irish do like a drink''

 

As to what that can be called...I'll let you answer that.

 

36 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You have fallen foul of rules...................

 

4.     Stereotyping of an entire nationality.

 

 

[kwilco]

Racism is a form of ignorance

 

It is not based on facts, evidence or rational deduction and thought, it is based on prejudices and assumptions.

 

Some on this thread seem to be remarkably un-informed on the topic of racism and consequently on racism in the UK. – they just rely on prejudice and assumption

 

Furthermore some on this thread seem to have difficulty in following the discussion.

They have repeatedly misread and misinterpret  other peoples’ posts and their arguments just aren’t arguments.

For example with my post that lists 30 possible clichés of racism.

 

The premise is

“Tropes and clichés used by racists ……….

“If you can tick any one of these you are probably a racist’

 

They seem to think the list is complete and exclusive – it looks as if they don’t understand the premise based on “tropes” and “clichés” – consequently your arguments are largely fallacious falling into false dichotomies, false syllogisms etc and literal naïve interpretations

 

One form of racism is those racists who don’t want to admit they are racists because of how stupid it makes them look , so characteristically they spend a lot of time arguing that they or something they said isn’t racist, but the more they do, the ore they confirm their basic racist beliefs.

Another form of racist, as I pointed out earlier, a racist in the same sense as an alcoholic – they are in denial  and there is less chance of ever overcoming the problem.

In fact many people who hold racist views really believe they aren’t racist but ignorance prevents them from understanding this. They resort to assumption myth and misinterpretation of the evidence to continue their denial.

 

UK thinks it’s come a log way with racism, but the reality is far from that – the fact that all forms of racism still exist in the UK id evidence of this – and those who pat themselves on the ack are in turn being racist themselves – denying there is a problem and helping to reinforce racism by their lack of resistance to it.

  

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why wont you answer that question ?

more sealioning!