Purchasing land in Isaan.

[Jaunty]

 Foreigner married to a Thai,looking to buy land in Isaan. I know foreigners cannot own land in Thailand however need some advice as to the best way to go about it. Can the foreigner have any control/ownership rights/rights in regard to selling the piece of purchased land? Any advice greatly appreciated.

[Don Chance]

30 year lease.

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

[MJCM]

6 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

Which parts of Isaan are you talking about? Up here in Buriram it's not bad, absolutely not the same as for example Chiang Mai

[Jaunty]

11 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

30 year lease.

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

Thanks. How does the 30 year lease work?

[KhunLA]

You can control the sale with an usufruct.   Can not be sold as long as that is in place, without your permission.  Your signature is needed to cancel it.

 

All my properties, we (wife/gf/wife/I) have purchased, 8 different lots, in 2 provinces, in their name, had usufruct placed on them.  I had to be present, and sign off, for land to be sold.  Every parcel.

 

Present house, build, I had to sign off for an addition to be added to, which kind of surprised both of us.   It's a powerful document.

 

As my usufructs are for use & modification.   Time of usufructs may differ with different land offices, or so I read.  Mine have always been for life.  

 

Leases are useless, as ex-wife can cancel after 1 year.  Reality, if they don't want you there, then it may be in your best (health) interest to not be there.  As a death certificate would null & void any contracts you signed ????

 

If you have to ask, tread lightly.   Why most, inclusive, will advice to rent for many years.  Also helps for anyone to decide where to live, before 'buying in'.

 

Everyone's circumstances and budgets are different, but 1 rule always applies ... "never invest more than you can lose"

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

You can control the sale with an usufruct.   Can not be sold as long as that is in place, without your permission.  Your signature is needed to cancel it.

 

All my properties, we (wife/gf/wife/I) have purchased, 8 different lots, in 2 provinces, in their name, had usufruct placed on them.  I had to be present, and sign off, for land to be sold.  Every parcel.

 

Present house, build, I had to sign off for an addition to be added to, which kind of surprised both of us.   It's a powerful document.

 

As my usufructs are for use & modification.   Time of usufructs may differ with different land offices, or so I read.  Mine have always been for life.  

 

Leases are useless, as ex-wife can cancel after 1 year.  Reality, if they don't want you there, then it may be in your best (health) interest to not be there.  As a death certificate would null & void any contracts you signed ????

 

If you have to ask, tread lightly.   Why most, inclusive, will advice to rent for many years.  Also helps for anyone to decide where to live, before 'buying in'.

 

Everyone's circumstances and budgets are different, but 1 rule always applies ... "never invest more than you can lose"

I have one on my son's land (but the intent is so that son's scaly greedy in laws can't twist son's wife to sell the land if my son passes away).

 

Our usufruct has no stated expiry date, it does automatically cancel upon my death.

 

Land cannot be sold or sub-divided or developed (even by my son) without my written approval which must be done at the land office where the chanut and usufruct are based. This must a written/sined/witnessed addendum to the existing usufruct document already attached to the actual chanut document (land title document).

Edited October 24, 2022 by scorecard

[Jaunty]

12 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I have one on my son's land (but the intent is so that son's scaly greedy in laws can't twist son's wife to sell the land if my son passes away).

 

Our usufruct has no stated expiry date, it does automatically cancel upon my death.

 

Land cannot be sold or sub-divided or developed (even by my son) without my written approval which must be done at the land office where the chanut and usufruct are based. This must a written/sined/witnessed addendum to the existing usufruct document already attached to the actual chanut document (land title document).

Thanks. Assume the usufruct can be set up by a local solicitor? Approximate costs?

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Thanks. Assume the usufruct can be set up by a local solicitor? Approximate costs?

Don't need a solicitor/lawyer.  Cost <100 baht at the land office.  Simply ask for it.  It's a fill in the blanks form printed off, all you do is sign.   They'll ask for simple 'use' or 'use & modify' (structures), then ask time length of.  Years or for life.  Udon Thani might have changed life to max of 30 yrs, more than enough for most.

 

Think long and hard about settling in NE, or anywhere, Hua Hin & above, as the air pollution can get horrendous 6 months of the year.  Seems to have already started.  Some areas knocking on and or passing 100 AQI.

 

I lived in Udon Thani area for 16 yrs,  couldn't wait to leave.  We're below Hua Hin now.  Aside from air quality, you are far from everything.  Takes a year or so, and you've seen everything there is to see in Isan.  Can be boring as all <deleted>.  I was out & about every moment I could be.  

 

Not cheap now with the cost of petrol, or the premium of EV buy in.  Rent for couple years is best advice all will give you.

 

Assuming ... if living with GF/wife's village, that gets even older faster.  I knew how to say 'NO', as most don't, and can be a huge drain on your finances.  Saying NO did make the 1st marriage short, and a blessing in itself.

Edited October 24, 2022 by KhunLA

[scorecard]

21 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Thanks. Assume the usufruct can be set up by a local solicitor? Approximate costs?

Ours was set up by our family lawyer who was many years ago my MBA student and I coached her to get her Ph.D. No charge.

 

To be honest I have no idea of cost, shouldn't be too much it's all very mechanical and straight forward.

 

Keep in mind that (as with many things in Thailand) the local land title head may have a personal view on this subject and only allow it to be done within his personal beliefs. Very possible and not much you can do to fight this.

[Jaunty]

32 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Don't need a solicitor/lawyer.  Cost <100 baht at the land office.  Simply ask for it.  It's a fill in the blanks form printed off, all you do is sign.   They'll ask for simple 'use' or 'use & modify' (structures), then ask time length of.  Years or for life.  Udon Thani might have changed life to max of 30 yrs, more than enough for most.

 

Think long and hard about settling in NE, or anywhere, Hua Hin & above, as the air pollution can get horrendous 6 months of the year.  Seems to have already started.  Some areas knocking on and or passing 100 AQI.

 

I lived in Udon Thani area for 16 yrs,  couldn't wait to leave.  We're below Hua Hin now.  Aside from air quality, you are far from everything.  Takes a year or so, and you've seen everything there is to see in Isan.  Can be boring as all <deleted>.  I was out & about every moment I could be.  

 

Not cheap now with the cost of petrol, or the premium of EV buy in.  Rent for couple years is best advice all will give you.

 

Assuming ... if living with GF/wife's village, that gets even older faster.  I knew how to say 'NO', as most don't, and can be a huge drain on your finances.  Saying NO did make the 1st marriage short, and a blessing in itself.

Appreciate the advice. I won't be living there. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jaunty

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Keep in mind that (as with many things in Thailand) the local land title head may have a personal view on this subject and only allow it to be done within his personal beliefs. Very possible and not much you can do to fight this.

Yes, and at Udon Thani, after our 1st house (2000), I read on local forum that stopped issuing them to foreigners.  I guess enough complained to the powers to be, that they started reissuing them again.  As we had no problem when purchasing land in 2010.

 

Prachuap Khiri Khan municipality land office, also not problem.  Only to Amphurs/provinceds I've dealt with.  7 lots at UT, 2 lots down here/PKK.  Forgot about the one, so 9 vs 8, as posted above.

[Hummin]

You will need chanote land title for usufruct, so make sure the land you purchase have the right land title since many villages still waiting for transfer their land given by king  in to chanote. 

[Hummin]

29 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You will need chanote land title for usufruct, so make sure the land you purchase have the right land title since many villages still waiting for transfer their land given by king  in to chanote. 

On the other hand, por bor tor 5 land title can be so cheap that you really do not need to worry to much, and if its turn in to Chanote later it will double or triple the value at least depending on location. 
 

It is a calculated risk depending on your relationship. We bought por bor tor and in worst case something I can walk away from and never look back. 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Don't need a solicitor/lawyer.  Cost <100 baht at the land office.  Simply ask for it.  It's a fill in the blanks form printed off, all you do is sign.   They'll ask for simple 'use' or 'use & modify' (structures), then ask time length of.  Years or for life.  Udon Thani might have changed life to max of 30 yrs, more than enough for most.

 

Think long and hard about settling in NE, or anywhere, Hua Hin & above, as the air pollution can get horrendous 6 months of the year.  Seems to have already started.  Some areas knocking on and or passing 100 AQI.

 

I lived in Udon Thani area for 16 yrs,  couldn't wait to leave.  We're below Hua Hin now.  Aside from air quality, you are far from everything.  Takes a year or so, and you've seen everything there is to see in Isan.  Can be boring as all <deleted>.  I was out & about every moment I could be.  

 

Not cheap now with the cost of petrol, or the premium of EV buy in.  Rent for couple years is best advice all will give you.

 

Assuming ... if living with GF/wife's village, that gets even older faster.  I knew how to say 'NO', as most don't, and can be a huge drain on your finances.  Saying NO did make the 1st marriage short, and a blessing in itself.

Re your last paragraph. Yep, 'been there done that'.

 

My Thai daughter in law has a loudmouth know all middle aged full on lady boy older brother. He's uneducated but he knows everything including the law in Thailand, Germany and Australia.

 

He's demanded that my son demand big money from me, so he can buy a luxury car and more.

 

He tells everybody that all people from Australia, regardless of their location and regardless of age (adults and children), gender, working, not working, retired etc., get a very big monthly allowance (he claims it's 50,000Baht a month) and claims I am totally stingy to not give him money (never given him 1 Baht and never will).

 

Some years back he called the Oz embassy in Bkk and asked them to give him a document proving that all Austraians get 50,000Baht a month. They told him it's not true, then he told my son 'the Australian Embassy tells lies'.

[ThomasThBKK]

Good general info on usufructs 


If land office refuses u might have luck with superficies instead or as already mentioned a lease, otherwise taking a lawyer to a land office often changes their tune (personal experience). 

 

[Expat68]

3 hours ago, Don Chance said:

30 year lease.

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

Not really! The worse time is coming into spring when the farmers are burning, then it is really bad especially more north, Chiang Mai for instance 

[Hummin]

16 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

Not really! The worse time is coming into spring when the farmers are burning, then it is really bad especially more north, Chiang Mai for instance 

Chiang mai iscespecially bad because of the surrounding landscape, as well Kanchanaburi can be hostile at times. 

[spidermike007]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Don't need a solicitor/lawyer.  Cost <100 baht at the land office.  Simply ask for it.  It's a fill in the blanks form printed off, all you do is sign.   They'll ask for simple 'use' or 'use & modify' (structures), then ask time length of.  Years or for life.  Udon Thani might have changed life to max of 30 yrs, more than enough for most.

 

Think long and hard about settling in NE, or anywhere, Hua Hin & above, as the air pollution can get horrendous 6 months of the year.  Seems to have already started.  Some areas knocking on and or passing 100 AQI.

 

I lived in Udon Thani area for 16 yrs,  couldn't wait to leave.  We're below Hua Hin now.  Aside from air quality, you are far from everything.  Takes a year or so, and you've seen everything there is to see in Isan.  Can be boring as all <deleted>.  I was out & about every moment I could be.  

 

Not cheap now with the cost of petrol, or the premium of EV buy in.  Rent for couple years is best advice all will give you.

 

Assuming ... if living with GF/wife's village, that gets even older faster.  I knew how to say 'NO', as most don't, and can be a huge drain on your finances.  Saying NO did make the 1st marriage short, and a blessing in itself.

Excellent advice. Some women cannot handle the word no, and many men don't know how to say it. 

 

Setting boundaries is just the beginning of a long and healthy relationship. 

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, Jaunty said:

Can the foreigner have any control/ownership rights/rights in regard to selling the piece of purchased land? Any advice greatly appreciated.

First of all, check the land's title deed, it need to be not lower than Nor Sor 3 (Nor Sor Sarm), and preferably Nor Sor 4 (Chanute) for ownership, only the last is full ownership. Nor Sor 3 can be upgraded to full ownership, but it m ake take a while to have it done.

 

Apart from investor visa (40 million baht) and wealthy retirement visa (30 million baht) foreigners cannot own land.

 

The most common way around it is establishing a Thai company limited to own the land; however, the foreigner can only own 49 percent and there need to be minimum three shareholders in total with 51 percent Thai ownership. Furthermore the Thai shareholders shall show evidence for funds. With preferred shares – the are two common methods – the foreigner can be able to control the company. The foreigner can be director and have power to sell and/or transfer land owned by the company. There are costs for running a company and preferably the company needs other activities than being an empty shell for foreign land ownership.

 

Another way to secure "investment" in land with high title deeds is, to get a loan declared as servitude – for example the value of the foreigner's investment in  land and buildings – with a loan servitude the land cannot be sold or transferred before the loan has been fully paid.

 

There are ways to get permission to use or live on a plot of land, but that does not include rights of ownership or rights to control the land, hereunder selling it.

 

Rights to use the land can be habitation right, usufruct, or lease with a superficies right to own new build buildings on the land. Be aware of that an agreement between husband and wife can be nullified, for example in case of divorce, so do have contracts made before transferring a land title to a wife's name.

[473geo]

Sitting on the porch, with a cup of coffee, having nurtured in a new arrival yesterday, on the farm. Daily walking through the rice fields coming up to fruition shortly.

Currently steadily completing two additional ensuite bedrooms.......

 

I wonder why I never in 15 years of marriage 'protected' anything or everything.

Then I realise along with an element of trust, there is no fear of leaving it all, and, starting a new chapter should the need arise ????

So my advice along with the other unsolicited postings is don't complicate things, hang loose ????

 

 

[GreasyFingers]

The question you need to ask is buying the land your idea or the wife. If not yours go the usufruct or superficies, or accept the advice of @473geo as many of us have done.

[MrJ2U]

10 hours ago, Don Chance said:

30 year lease.

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

Try to be close to a City. Udon Thani is good. 

It might sound adventurous but it's deadly boring with little choice for western food outside of Cities. 

 

I wouldn't do it again.  Just visit her family on occasion and buy something anywhere but Issan. 

[hotchilli]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

You can control the sale with an usufruct.   Can not be sold as long as that is in place, without your permission.  Your signature is needed to cancel it.

 

All my properties, we (wife/gf/wife/I) have purchased, 8 different lots, in 2 provinces, in their name, had usufruct placed on them.  I had to be present, and sign off, for land to be sold.  Every parcel.

 

Present house, build, I had to sign off for an addition to be added to, which kind of surprised both of us.   It's a powerful document.

 

As my usufructs are for use & modification.   Time of usufructs may differ with different land offices, or so I read.  Mine have always been for life.  

 

Leases are useless, as ex-wife can cancel after 1 year.  Reality, if they don't want you there, then it may be in your best (health) interest to not be there.  As a death certificate would null & void any contracts you signed ????

 

If you have to ask, tread lightly.   Why most, inclusive, will advice to rent for many years.  Also helps for anyone to decide where to live, before 'buying in'.

 

Everyone's circumstances and budgets are different, but 1 rule always applies ... "never invest more than you can lose"

Very sound advice.

[thurien]

18 hours ago, Don Chance said:

30 year lease.

Also lots of pollution up there in the winter. I would think twice.

you talk about the CM area (which is not Isaan...)

 

[Don Chance]

22 hours ago, Jaunty said:

Thanks. How does the 30 year lease work?

I'm no expert but i gather you or your RE agent finds a piece of land or property for sale and it is just written up as a 30 years lease with the lawyers.  There is an option to renew but i wouldn't count on it. One problem is you have a 50% chance of living past 85 and you could be out on the street. Philippines sounds better, they have a 50 year lease.

 

https://thairesidential.com/all-about-the-30-year-leasehold-in-thailand/

 

At any rate you have to do some hard thinking because if you invest the money and just rent the property you will probably come out a head and with less headaches.

If you spend $100,000 on a property, it could be earning $10,000 a year invested. So if your rent is only $5000 a year you will come out way ahead.

 

 

[DJ54]

The air in the countryside of Kumphawapi Udon Thani is good most the time… .. todays forecast blue skies slight breeze…

[KhunLA]

41 minutes ago, DJ54 said:

The air in the countryside of Kumphawapi Udon Thani is good most the time… .. todays forecast blue skies slight breeze…

Looking for clean air year-round, then Udon Thani province the whole damn place is not the place to be.

 

You'll have krap air for 6 months of the year.  I only lived there for over 16 years.

 

AQI 80, end of October is not good.

 

[kimamey]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:46 PM, KhunLA said:

Don't need a solicitor/lawyer.  Cost <100 baht at the land office.  Simply ask for it.  It's a fill in the blanks form printed off, all you do is sign.   They'll ask for simple 'use' or 'use & modify' (structures), then ask time length of.  Years or for life.  Udon Thani might have changed life to max of 30 yrs, more than enough for most.

 

Think long and hard about settling in NE, or anywhere, Hua Hin & above, as the air pollution can get horrendous 6 months of the year.  Seems to have already started.  Some areas knocking on and or passing 100 AQI.

 

I lived in Udon Thani area for 16 yrs,  couldn't wait to leave.  We're below Hua Hin now.  Aside from air quality, you are far from everything.  Takes a year or so, and you've seen everything there is to see in Isan.  Can be boring as all <deleted>.  I was out & about every moment I could be.  

 

Not cheap now with the cost of petrol, or the premium of EV buy in.  Rent for couple years is best advice all will give you.

 

Assuming ... if living with GF/wife's village, that gets even older faster.  I knew how to say 'NO', as most don't, and can be a huge drain on your finances.  Saying NO did make the 1st marriage short, and a blessing in itself.

I've not checked the air quality figures here in Mahasarakham where I live but I've certainly not felt any problems with the air at any time of the year. Maybe they are stricter on enforcing the rules on burning here.

 

More problems with the wife's cooking and particularly the mil who cooks over an open fire. 

[GarryP]

I have purchased land in Kalasin and am in the process of having my house built there. When I retire at the end of this year after 40 years of living in Bangkok, I will move there. While the air in Kalasin is not great at times, it is a damn sight better than smokey BKK, but as mentioned by a few posters boredom could be a serious issue that needs to be addressed.  

[KhunLA]

40 minutes ago, kimamey said:

I've not checked the air quality figures here in Mahasarakham where I live but I've certainly not felt any problems with the air at any time of the year. Maybe they are stricter on enforcing the rules on burning here.

 

More problems with the wife's cooking and particularly the mil who cooks over an open fire. 

Probably just not notice due to a wee bit of ignorance, and that's not a slight, as I was the same, when first got here, quite ignorant myself about AQI.

 

2nd house in Udon Thani, and had a 2nd floor 'veranda' above most trees facing southward to Nong Bua LamPhu.  Half way to, there was a large ridge (called mountains here (hill), actually 4 distinct ridges on a clear day.

 

On a not so clear day, you wouldn't even know they existed.  Of course I wrote it off to simple humidity haze ... it wasn't.  Only a mere 10-15kms away.

 

On a day after or simply during rainy season, take a few snaps of the distance landscape, then do the same during dry season.  Then you'll notice.  You won't notice knockin' around town or the village, but on distant vista, just too obvious.

 

One bloke I know on the N side of TH, thought the same as you, and posted a photo to prove the clean air.  I suggested he compare that to all his photos of the same scene.   Reality hit him hard, as he did have health issues, and now knows why they've increased since moving to TH.

 

At present the AQI is just OK, though still 3X WHO recommendation.  Do consider though, burning season hasn't even truly kicked in yet.  AQIs use to be OK till Dec, then end of Nov, then mid Nov, now as early as Oct, they're are going downhill.

 

Look at AQI maps, and you'll notice the real world, USA/UK/EU mostly in the green.  Look at SEA, and things look bleak.