US midterm elections: What's happened to economy under Biden?

[Credo]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Cancelling Keystone at the very start of his term didn't exactly help.

 

Restrictions were created by the government, so, IMO, the government is responsible for growers not growing, truckers not trucking, miners not mining, and smelters not smelting. I believe the previous POTUS was criticized by your side for not locking down, and the present one did bring in lockdowns, so don't blame Trump for it.

 

I made my position on lockdowns clear when they started, so not going to repeat now.

Cancelling the Keystone has not impeded Canadian Oil from entering the US.  It's simply one method of transport.   

The US shutdown started on March 15, 2020.  That was under the Trump administration.  In his usual style, he locked down then complained about it.  The current President has overseen the opening of the country.   So, don't blame Biden.  He expedited the largest mass inoculation in US history in lightening speed.  The roll-out took massive amounts of logistics and coordination, which he was done fast and efficiently.   

It seems you have trouble with facts.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

The US shutdown started on March 15, 2020.  That was under the Trump administration.  In his usual style, he locked down then complained about it. 

Correct and I changed my post because of that. I doubt he wanted to lockdown, but this thread isn't about that so I won't discuss further.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Credo said:

He expedited the largest mass inoculation in US history in lightening speed. 

Only possible because "Warp Speed" produced the vaccine in an unprecedented short time. Warp speed wasn't started by Biden.

However, again not on topic, so no more on that.

[Credo]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Only possible because "Warp Speed" produced the vaccine in an unprecedented short time. Warp speed wasn't started by Biden.

However, again not on topic, so no more on that.

Wrong.  Warp Speed had nothing to do with the roll-out of the vaccines.  It had to do with their development.   

 

[candide]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So people should just lie down and die quietly then? If it's not Biden's problem to solve, who is going to solve it?

Why has Biden not created a "Warp speed" type solution? That worked for vaccines, it could work for inflation, but only if Mr "I'll unite the country" pulls finger and does something.

If there were miracle solutions to quickly reduce inflation, it would be known, as all governments are desperate about it. Inflation is a global phenomenon. Energy, raw material, food, etc.. prices are global. All countries also experience the same value chain problems post-Covid.

 

Actually, some countries, I.e. UK, would be happy to have"only" the same inflation rate as the U.S.

 

Countries with lower inflation rates usually benefit from specific conditions, I.e. France with a large nuclear plants base and regulated electricity prices.

 

There's also the issue of strategic independence (more clearly: from China.). There is also no miracle solution. Either you increase prices by imposing tariffs as Trump did, and you fuel inflation, or you subsidize national industries to make them more competitive, in terms of innovation and prices (Biden's plans). If you do nothing, nothing will change and China will dominate.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, candide said:

If there were miracle solutions to quickly reduce inflation, it would be known, as all governments are desperate about it. Inflation is a global phenomenon. Energy, raw material, food, etc.. prices are global. All countries also experience the same value chain problems post-Covid.

 

Actually, some countries, I.e. UK, would be happy to have"only" the same inflation rate as the U.S.

 

Countries with lower inflation rates usually benefit from specific conditions, I.e. France with a large nuclear plants base and regulated electricity prices.

 

There's also the issue of strategic independence (more clearly: from China.). There is also no miracle solution. Either you increase prices by imposing tariffs as Trump did, and you fuel inflation, or you subsidize national industries to make them more competitive, in terms of innovation and prices (Biden's plans). If you do nothing, nothing will change and China will dominate.

I never mentioned "miracle solutions". I did say that convening a committee of ACTUAL experts ( not political flunkies ) to look at everything, might come up with a solution that was affordable and practical. Before Warp Speed it was accepted by most that a vaccine normally takes years to develop- it didn't.

 

My point, such as it is, is that being seen to do something that might work is better than doing sod all, even if it can't be fixed. When all is disaster, hope is always a good thing.

Have we learned nothing about economies since 1929?

[Credo]

55 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

been given permission to frack where it was previously denied

Seems principles of the Big Guy are somewhat flexible then

They ain't going to resume fracking unless it's profitable to do so, and Biden is leading on the "gas is too expensive" front. Also, I guess they won't unless Biden guarantees the Democrats won't ban it again once the situation stabilizes.

 

Keystone back on again perhaps?

Fracking is a type of drilling and recovery that can't be undone.  If they are fracking a well, then it continues until the oil is exhausted.  Keystone is not needed.  The oil from Keystone was Canadian crude destined for US oil refineries for primarily export to other countries.  The US refineries are left with a very toxic residue from shale oil refining.   

If a pipeline is needed, it is to bring much needed water to the drought stricken Western US.   Or maybe to replenish the Mississippi where hundreds of barges with tons of crops from the upper midwest are stranded as well as large amounts of petroleum.  The river is too low to get the barges through.  So, expect food prices to rise.  But hey, the right-wing mantra has been that Climate Change is a hoax, so no need to address the underlying problem, is there?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

The oil from Keystone was Canadian crude destined for US oil refineries for primarily export to other countries. 

Which would help bring prices down. The greater the supply the lower the price.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Credo said:

But hey, the right-wing mantra has been that Climate Change is a hoax, so no need to address the underlying problem, is there?

Are windmills and EVs going to make it rain?

[Credo]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which would help bring prices down. The greater the supply the lower the price.

The supply has not been impeded.  The oil is moved by train.  Large amounts also pass through the existing pipeline to refineries in the midwest.  Refineries are at maximum output so this oil is not going to get to world markets through any pipeline.   

 

[Credo]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are windmills and EVs going to make it rain?

So now you have simply resorted to trolling.   But I'll take a moment to answer your question.  Maybe they will.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

The supply has not been impeded.  The oil is moved by train.  Large amounts also pass through the existing pipeline to refineries in the midwest.  Refineries are at maximum output so this oil is not going to get to world markets through any pipeline.   

 

This is a circular argument, so carry on without me.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Credo said:

So now you have simply resorted to trolling.   But I'll take a moment to answer your question.  Maybe they will.

 

Not trolling. Serious question, but I forgot to include solar. What other "solutions" are being offered?

[candide]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never mentioned "miracle solutions". I did say that convening a committee of ACTUAL experts ( not political flunkies ) to look at everything, might come up with a solution that was affordable and practical. Before Warp Speed it was accepted by most that a vaccine normally takes years to develop- it didn't.

 

My point, such as it is, is that being seen to do something that might work is better than doing sod all, even if it can't be fixed. When all is disaster, hope is always a good thing.

Have we learned nothing about economies since 1929?

However, working on the real issues, such as strategic independence, which may not be visible on short term but effective on middle term, may be better than showing agitation on short term.

 

You mention Warp Speed and It's not as obvious as it seems. It worked well for Moderna, less for Novavax, and the most remarkable success (Pfizer BioNtech), refused to participate (on top of the technology having been largely developed by a German firm).

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Cancelling Keystone at the very start of his term didn't exactly help.

 

Restrictions were created by the government, so, IMO, the government is responsible for growers not growing, truckers not trucking, miners not mining, and smelters not smelting. I believe the previous POTUS was criticized by your side for not locking down soon enough, so don't blame him for it.

 

I made my position on lockdowns clear when they started, so not going to repeat now.

Keystone was years from completion.  Its cancellation had no impact on current oil prices.

 

What are these other restrictions created by the government?  Are you referring to the lock-downs during the Trump administration?

 

Inflation is caused predominantly by supply chain problems.  Both Russia and China have been identified as unreliable partners and supply chains are being shortened and simplified, but that comes with a cost.

 

In short, globalization is being rolled back, and that is causing inflation.  Isn't an end to globalization what Trump supporters wanted?

[Hanaguma]

32 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Keystone was years from completion.  Its cancellation had no impact on current oil prices.

 

What are these other restrictions created by the government?  Are you referring to the lock-downs during the Trump administration?

 

Inflation is caused predominantly by supply chain problems.  Both Russia and China have been identified as unreliable partners and supply chains are being shortened and simplified, but that comes with a cost.

 

In short, globalization is being rolled back, and that is causing inflation.  Isn't an end to globalization what Trump supporters wanted?

Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods and services. Biden exascerbated inflation by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars more stimulus money into the economy at the same time as businesses were trying to get back on their feet from the pandemic.  A disastrous choice of action which he and his advisors did not see coming. Many in early 2021 were adamant that inflation was "transitory", only to have to eat their words by the end of the year- Janet Yellen for example. So we are where we are.

[vandeventer]

18 hours ago, Credo said:

And yet I have not heard one thing that the Republican Party plans to do to lower inflation.  Nothing.  

 

Wait a week than you will see words put into actions. How high was inflation under Trump? Joe said the price on gas was at 5 dollars a gallon when he took over from Trump. Maybe one day  the lies will stop, Joe really tells so many I think he has lost touch with reality

Edited November 3, 2022 by onthedarkside
trolling reference removed

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods and services. Biden exascerbated inflation by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars more stimulus money into the economy at the same time as businesses were trying to get back on their feet from the pandemic.  A disastrous choice of action which he and his advisors did not see coming. Many in early 2021 were adamant that inflation was "transitory", only to have to eat their words by the end of the year- Janet Yellen for example. So we are where we are.

Yes, inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods and services.  The supply of goods are being constrained by supply chain problems and the supply of services by the shortage of workers.  These are not Biden's fault.

 

The stimulus spending contributed to inflation, but the primary cause is the supply chain issues.  That is global, which is why inflation is a global problem.

[heybruce]

9 minutes ago, vandeventer said:

Wait a week than you will see words put into actions. How high was inflation under Trump? Joe said the price on gas was at 5 dollars a gallon when he took over from Trump. Maybe one day  the lies will stop, sleepy Joe really tells so many I think he has lost touch with reality

Trump presided over an economic crash.  That tends to keep inflation down.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Trump presided over an economic crash.  That tends to keep inflation down.

Amazing how the crash coincided with the pandemic though, isnt it? As you said, the current president isnt responsible for the supply chain, so logically the previous president isnt responsible for the pandemic and accompanying economic chaos.

 

And yes the supply/job issues can be laid at Biden's feet. He was slow to open the country after Covid was not a threat. He incentivized people to not work by overspending on stimulus checks.  He needlessly grew the debt and deficit by trillions.  

 

As for [Trump], there was low unemployment (especially historically low levels for BIPOC people), wage growth, low inflation, and low gas prices. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by onthedarkside
name calling reference removed

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Amazing how the crash coincided with the pandemic though, isnt it? As you said, the current president isnt responsible for the supply chain, so logically the previous president isnt responsible for the pandemic and accompanying economic chaos.

 

And yes the supply/job issues can be laid at Biden's feet. He was slow to open the country after Covid was not a threat. He incentivized people to not work by overspending on stimulus checks.  He needlessly grew the debt and deficit by trillions.  

 

As for [Trump], there was low unemployment (especially historically low levels for BIPOC people), wage growth, low inflation, and low gas prices. 

Trump was not responsible for Covid, Biden is not responsible for the supply chain problems (currently driven primarily by Putin's war and China's irrational policy towards Covid lockdowns), Covid is still a threat, and all the good aspects of the economy you are trying to credit Trump with were in place before he took office.

[Hanaguma]

46 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Trump was not responsible for Covid, Biden is not responsible for the supply chain problems (currently driven primarily by Putin's war and China's irrational policy towards Covid lockdowns), Covid is still a threat, and all the good aspects of the economy you are trying to credit Trump with were in place before he took office.

Covid is no threat any more. Hasn't been for a long time.  I still remember when we were told "just two weeks to stop the curve". 

 

And yes some credit to Obama in his final years in office. The economy was humming along pretty well, especially thanks to GOP control of Congress. Trump was able to continue and even improve on what he inherited. 

 

But we are talking about the Biden administration here. His profligate spending was the major cause of inflation. 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

But we are talking about the Biden administration here. His profligate spending was the major cause of inflation. 

Was his "profligate spending" the major cause of inflation in most of the developed world economies?

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Was his "profligate spending" the major cause of inflation in most of the developed world economies?

So your position is that government spending under Biden had no influence on inflation? Noted conservative website vox.com disagrees with you...

 

The article acknowledges basic underlying issues like the pandemic. Yet:

 

But regarding the exact amount of inflation, the US stands out. And it started to stand out shortly after President Biden took office.

From 2021 onward, what’s known as “core inflation” has been significantly higher in the US than in other wealthy countries.

 

https://www.vox.com/23036340/biden-american-rescue-plan-inflation

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

So your position is that government spending under Biden had no influence on inflation? Noted conservative website vox.com disagrees with you...

 

The article acknowledges basic underlying issues like the pandemic. Yet:

 

But regarding the exact amount of inflation, the US stands out. And it started to stand out shortly after President Biden took office.

From 2021 onward, what’s known as “core inflation” has been significantly higher in the US than in other wealthy countries.

 

https://www.vox.com/23036340/biden-american-rescue-plan-inflation

Here's what you wrote:

"But we are talking about the Biden administration here. His profligate spending was the major cause of inflation."

The major cause?

Right now core inflation in the US is at 6.6%. In the EU it's at  5,6%.  

[banjobob]

19 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

been given permission to frack where it was previously denied

Seems principles of the Big Guy are somewhat flexible then

They ain't going to resume fracking unless it's profitable to do so, and Biden is leading on the "gas is too expensive" front. Also, I guess they won't unless Biden guarantees the Democrats won't ban it again once the situation stabilizes.

 

Keystone back on again perhaps?

Supply is not critical path, there's plenty, refinery capacity is the culprit. KS will supply about 900K barrels, but refineries are 1.3M barrels/day in the hole. At current consumption levels, W/O increasing refinery capacity, there will be upward pressure on downstream prices.

Edited November 3, 2022 by banjobob

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Here's what you wrote:

"But we are talking about the Biden administration here. His profligate spending was the major cause of inflation."

The major cause?

Right now core inflation in the US is at 6.6%. In the EU it's at  5,6%.  

Right now? Yes, Europe is sadly catching up. But Bidenflation started back when he passed the ridiculously named American Rescue Plan. The article I posted showed US core inflation at about 4% at the end of 2021, the OECD average was about 1.2% . Previously, they had been almost the same. 

[placeholder]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Right now? Yes, Europe is sadly catching up. But Bidenflation started back when he passed the ridiculously named American Rescue Plan. The article I posted showed US core inflation at about 4% at the end of 2021, the OECD average was about 1.2% . Previously, they had been almost the same. 

Well, the US economy recovered a lot faster than the EU's.

[Credo]

7 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods and services. Biden exascerbated inflation by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars more stimulus money into the economy at the same time as businesses were trying to get back on their feet from the pandemic.  A disastrous choice of action which he and his advisors did not see coming. Many in early 2021 were adamant that inflation was "transitory", only to have to eat their words by the end of the year- Janet Yellen for example. So we are where we are.

Well, if Biden is responsible, then why was my stimulus check signed by Trump?

 

The 'too few goods' is the crux of the problem and that's a supply chain problem.  Food prices are exacerbated by Climate Change, which has caused huge swaths of the Imperial Valley and Arizona farms to plow under crops.   Now, a large amount of grain and other goods are stuck in the Mississippi River with water levels too low to allow barge traffic.  

 

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, Credo said:

Well, if Biden is responsible, then why was my stimulus check signed by Trump?

 

The 'too few goods' is the crux of the problem and that's a supply chain problem.  Food prices are exacerbated by Climate Change, which has caused huge swaths of the Imperial Valley and Arizona farms to plow under crops.   Now, a large amount of grain and other goods are stuck in the Mississippi River with water levels too low to allow barge traffic.  

 

Did you say "thank you, Mr. President?" 

 

But seriously, we are talking about the spending done by Biden- The American Rescue Plan. Maybe Joe forgot to send you a cheque.  He forgets a lot of things these days.

 

TBH I think Trump spent too much already by that time, Biden just made it even worse.  There was some justification in the first round of spending, but not the second.